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Old 10-08-2012, 08:32 AM   #1
Mercutio
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Chansey Bide

So, Bide. We've capped its power absorption, we've capped its rape potential, we've tweaked and messed with it.

Bide is still stupid.

I move that we make Bide absorb only power, not type energy. It would be unable to be anything other than a typleless beam of doom.

Pros: Prevents Bide from dealing 3 HBs at a time, which let's be honest, is not very balanced. Is what the games and animé have always done. Cuts some of the power of Gen Is, which will hopefully allow the slight increase in variety we're seeing to continue.

Cons: Bide is no longer incredibly hilarious. Certain pokémon are rendered usable with Bide, whereas without they're a bit rubbisher (read: Grass types). Everyone will have a hissy fit about it like they did about Shadow Ball.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:41 AM   #2
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Typeless beam please.

It makes much more sense and the bitchwines of everybody can't argue against that.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:32 AM   #3
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While typed Bide is hilarious under certain circumstances, I wouldn't be against it being typeless.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:46 AM   #4
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Typed bide really isn't the problem with bide as it stands - you only really get raped by that if you're a complete idiot and use stuff you're weak to against a 'mon with bide. The main problem with bide is that the bidebeam is twice the power of the attacks levied against it. Throw up a bide and not only are you immune to status (which is a cool effect we should keep) but most dangerously your opponent can't try to deal more than half as much damage as they have health left unless they use moves they resist - typeless bide would only make that problem worse, because it would become impossible to try to deal more than half the health you have left without being bidekilled. Literally I don't understand how this hasn't become more of a thing, three or four times in basically every match I've had recently it has been far and away my best choice of move but I've not abused it too much because it's too broken. If your moves won't faint the opponent but you have less than twice as much health as the damage your moves are doing (which can be quite a lot), you lose. Both just under half and you fire off a couple of secret powers? Sorry, autoloss.

Tl;dr, keep bide typed because it makes it more tactical, but make it do the same damage back as was taken in rather than 2x.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:51 AM   #5
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Yeah, Concept actually has a pretty cool suggestion. Also we can make Metal Burst a little bit like old Bide which will finally make it useful.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:08 AM   #6
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Didn't Jeri say he didn't like it same power because both go down the same amount, no net gain, and the Pokemon are where they were before? While he likes the high risk, high reward Bide?

I actually like Bide as is, but if we had to nerf it, why not just 1.5x damage back instead of 2x?
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:08 AM   #7
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Yeah, Concept actually has a pretty cool suggestion. Also we can make Metal Burst a little bit like old Bide which will finally make it useful.
I hate you people. I have been saying this since forever. I don't know why people see it as a CounterCoat. It is a one turn Bide. It should work like Bide, not CounterCoat.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:11 AM   #8
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I actually like Bide as is, but if we had to nerf it, why not just 1.5x damage back instead of 2x?
Yeah this.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:08 PM   #9
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Agree with Concept's point and Kairne's suggestion of 1.5x. Also, making Bide typeless will make Ghosts and Dragons a lot more powerful than they are now.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:14 PM   #10
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I think that x1.5 is probably the best idea. That curbs the output well enough, I think.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:23 PM   #11
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I like 1.5
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:48 PM   #12
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I don't see how that is an argument for typed bide. Typed bide accentuated the problem (grents partially because it accentuates the capacity for mistakes)

1.5 would help but not be sufficient
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:36 AM   #13
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Going to get yelled at by everyone for this, but I'm supporting 1x typed Bide.


Okay, now before you cement in your minds that I've gone crazy, I'd like to explain. One one hand, 1x means we have the problem that the move theoretically has no gain factor. But, let's be honest here- does any actually use Bide for any reason other than to punish Ghosts and Dragons who think they can walk all over you with no fear of retaliation? Even when it's not used in that exact situation, Bide typically serves to punish generic going-first orders by reflecting a move which deals more damage to the one using it than the one receiving it. Which means that a 2x multiplier is often built into the move anyway. Of course, I'm not totally up to date- how much energy does Bide take in return for it's retalitory fire? The site says that it's high, depending on the moves used, but doesn't get any more specific than that. However, if we're worried that energy inefficiency will be an issue, why not bring the Bide multiplier to a nice 1.25x? I know that number seems fairly arbitrary, but it makes sense when you apply it to usage- Assuming a total damage intake of 1HB (The Bide cap), a retalitory SE Bidebeam would deal 2.5HBs- A lot, most certainly, but remember that that extra .5HB is pretty important. Assuming an average of 0.5HB per an attack, this means you cannot take an opponent from full health to out in the two turns you can with 1.5x Bide (A Bide turn and a standard two-move turn), excepting the standard high-damage methods of three-movers and SE damage. Typespam is a reality we all know how to deal with at this point, and three-movers are limited commodities which are pretty much equivalent to bombs in SMUPS(sp?), or supers in fighters.

Inetivable Q+C?
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:15 AM   #14
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Or we could just do what the anime does.

I mean making it 1x sort of defeats the object and isn't the problem. The problem is the potential power level.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:54 AM   #15
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Or we could just do what the anime does.

I mean making it 1x sort of defeats the object and isn't the problem. The problem is the potential power level.
"Reducing the potential power level by half does nothing to address the problem of the potential power level being too high!".

I'll put a more constructive post about why I think 1x typed bide is the way to go when I get back from lectures, this just amused me.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:26 AM   #16
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I'd go with 2x typeless damage. Usually a Pokemon resists it's own type and stuff so it would still make it usable.

Also it prevents the crazy damage numbers since no Pokemon would be weak to it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:36 AM   #17
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I support 2x typeless because, frankly, the point of the move is that it's supposed to be high damage output. That and it allows keeping the need for a rest afterward, plus the slightly lower energy cost is more easily justified.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:24 AM   #18
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Guys please remember the league standard is rapidly becoming 1.5/3x(at the least.)
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:12 AM   #19
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But then again there's Concept's point of 2x typeless bide being too OP if your health is less than 2x of your opponent's health and you use any non-typespam attacks which break the opponent's Bide. Right now there are ways of getting around problems with Bide by using attacks you resist, but in the other case you'd have no option but to try and not break the bide. Plus you can't rely on status moves as Bide blocks them.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:28 AM   #20
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both sides have their merits and problems but I don't see any way of fixing Bide other than these two that doesn't nerf it to hell

So. Which is the lesser of two evils?
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:41 AM   #21
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KEEP THE SPIRIT OF BIDE ALIVE! 2X TYPELESS!

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:44 AM   #22
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1.5x typed is the way to go, I think. It keeps with the spirit of it but doesn't make it overpowered (not that I think it's bad as is, anyway). Typeless just kinda ruins its high risk, high reward nature.

The downside is, of course, that people will bitch about having to think about orders.
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:48 PM   #23
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Well the obvious compromise assuming they're equal is 1.5x type less. Typed has no real reason to exist in the first place, having been lulled from our collective asses, and to be honest most people seem to want to keep it typed because it's funny. Making it typeless prevents it from being broken in its power. Bringing it to 1.5 makes it still powerful but with no potential to super screw you.

I mean my basic argument is that there shouldn't exist a way of dealing 3 HBs of damage in a single move, barring obvious exceptions like Blast Burn to a Snover. Bide is too easy and contributes to Gen I dominance
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:05 PM   #24
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Or, since most of us seem to like typed Bide because it brings strategic dimension, we could compromise with 1.5x typed.

If we really want to scale back the damage to the point of making Bide stupid, we could do 1.5x typeless, but I think the 1.5x typed is a better compromise. But if we wanted to make it good, but more balanced? Why not 1.5 typed and put a lower threshold? Instead of three-fourths of a Hyper Beam, why not break it at a Thunderbolt's worth?

EDIT: What if 1.5x damage the aura absorbs, typed as such, for 2x energy? So Bided Thunderbolt would do 1.5 Thunderbolts Electric damage for 2 Thunderbolts energy. It's a bit I_Dish, but
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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KAIRNE I WILL RIP OFF YOUR SCROTUM AND FEED IT TO YOU THROUGH A FUCKING SWIRLY STRAW.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:28 PM   #25
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Most people wanted to keep the switching rules were you could recall a Pokemon and rider a three mover without your opponent being able to re order.

I mean 1.5x typed is a start but isn't the crux of it.
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