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Old 08-06-2012, 05:06 AM   #51
DaveTheFishGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hen da man View Post
Or switching takes some health away, whether you are baton passing or switching.
This is called Stealth Rock.

Also as I said to Jeri last night, I probably prefer what I quoted of Zora - halving everything. 1.5/3 is alright, but it makes no sense. Say a Gigalith is hit with a Dynamic Punch, it takes a bit more, but a Bastiodon takes twice as much even as that. Zorules make the most sense in this regard but they're a bit of a clusterfuck.

I mean I'd like 1.5/2 but again, I'm about to add something like 3/4 'mon with 4x weaknesses for regular use.
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Old 08-06-2012, 05:32 AM   #52
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Dave's post is basically an "illustration" of why 1.5x/3x doesn't balance things any more than they already are (if anything it makes things more unbalanced). I'm all for adjusting the damage system but it's going to be hard to find a set of decent multipliers.

If all else fails we can just bump up health and energy like Dave said. Though 6 I'd go for something more like 6 health and 8 energy.
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Old 08-06-2012, 06:04 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
>.>

<.<

No I didn't. You assumed that the words "restrict off-type energy" (AND THERE WERE LOTS OF OTHER WORDS TOO) were the basis of my point, when they most definitely were not. Clearly it is time for...

THE MIGHTY TL;DR

The current energy cap system is supposed to restrict the amount of super effective attacks you can use. But! It does not. It restricts the amount of neutral moves you can do instead because they are much less energy efficient. Therefore, the best solution is to:

~impose heavy restrictions on super effective moves that are off-type
~remove all other energy restrictions
~reduce the super effective limits

very nice image by the way
Objectively speaking, this is a terrible idea.

Subjectively speaking, yeah fuck off I'd like to not have a totally useless gym


Problem with bringing it down to 6/8 is that once you've used up all your type energy, a lot of pokémon will have trouble taking down Steel types and others with high amounts of resistances. You think Scizor is annoying now? Imagine fighting it with only one or two Fire attacks at your disposal and seeing it only go down to maybe half? You woudn't be able to kill it.
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:30 AM   #54
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Problem with bringing it down to 6/8 is that once you've used up all your type energy, a lot of pokémon will have trouble taking down Steel types and others with high amounts of resistances. You think Scizor is annoying now? Imagine fighting it with only one or two Fire attacks at your disposal and seeing it only go down to maybe half? You woudn't be able to kill it.
Yeah, this is issue number two that Dave brought up last night. I don't really know that I want to make Steel-types king.
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:08 AM   #55
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Well, if we change the system to x1.5/x2, you're going to have the same problem. To use Kush's example, you're only bringing a Scizor down to half health with your Fire energy. That's assuming we keep the 4 HB/6 HB system we have now. The way I see it, keeping the current scale and raising health and energy, or keeping the same health and energy while lowering the scale are the only options here...

Unless some compromise was made... Would 5 HB of health, 7 HB of energy, and an x2/x3 scale work? That way, in the Scizor case, your Fire attacks are bringing it down to less than half, and you still have 6 HB of energy to play with assuming you have a fresh Pokemon. Thoughts?
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:11 PM   #56
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> Dave's point

Yeah, but people bitch if you want to do Zorules instead. Although mathematically more sound, people see it as way too slow, which may be quite true.

> Making Steel-types untouchable


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
Sup.

I just got a PM with concern to my ruling on Round and other Normal energy-based attacks.

I'd just like to point out that it does not simply extend to Round or sound-based attacks, but all Normal energy attacks in general. My ruling, hopefully, will reflect better balance, allowing for a non-resisted attack against any Pokemon so even if you are facing a foe who resists everything else, you will not have a completely resisted moveset.

This does not apply, however, to physical Normal attacks or those listed as XX. That is "typeless", in that it does not use energy, but are resisted by Steels and Rocks due to their obdurate skin and shells. I can understand how this ruling can be confusing or misleading and I will make an effort to revise the movelist in our next revision to fix this issue and disparity (I'll either go back on my ruling or redefine NO and XX). If you have any questions about specifics, feel free to shoot me a PM so I can get that cleared up for you.
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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KAIRNE I WILL RIP OFF YOUR SCROTUM AND FEED IT TO YOU THROUGH A FUCKING SWIRLY STRAW.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:15 PM   #57
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Oh I've been ignoring that for so long I'd forgotten about it.
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Old 08-06-2012, 12:21 PM   #58
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Yes. Yes, you have.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealthy View Post
As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneezey12 View Post
KAIRNE I WILL RIP OFF YOUR SCROTUM AND FEED IT TO YOU THROUGH A FUCKING SWIRLY STRAW.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:11 PM   #59
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Ok here is my horrible idea.
.25/.5/1/2/3 for Se/resistances
6/9 HB health and energy
3 hb of other type energy. 2 for normal types.
Introduce stab

flames?Thoughts?
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:13 PM   #60
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I'm confused about why we think adding in STAB is a good idea.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:17 PM   #61
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To me it makes sense. Although maybe not as big of a boost as in game.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:19 PM   #62
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> .25/.5/1/2/3 for Se/resistances
The resistances aren't necessarily looked at much, but as for the SE, that is more or less the standard.

> 6/9 HB health and energy
This is currently being debated

> 3 hb of other type energy. 2 for normal types.
lolno. That would create a worse typespam problem, because then you'd have enough type energy to kill a Pokemon exclusively using an off-type energy without any familiarity.

> Introduce stab
lolfuckno. Pokemon of a certain type can get off attacks of that type a small bit quicker. No actual power boost is necessary.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealthy View Post
As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneezey12 View Post
KAIRNE I WILL RIP OFF YOUR SCROTUM AND FEED IT TO YOU THROUGH A FUCKING SWIRLY STRAW.
Leader of the "Stop Screwing Over Smeargle" Brigade

ASB
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:20 PM   #63
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I'm not really a fan of bumping up health/energy.

Mozz rules?
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:23 PM   #64
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But STAB would be a step in the wrong direction if you think there's a problem with Health and Energy.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:27 PM   #65
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If Health/Energy gets bumped up to 6/9 then I don't see why STAB can't be brought in. Not the crazy 50% boost of the games, since that wouldn't work here, but something like a 25% boost.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:28 PM   #66
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I'd rather bump up health and energy then modify the Se multipliers.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:34 PM   #67
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>Normal vs Steel

Yeah I'm pretty sure we all decided that no.

Also I'm dropping my support for upping health/energy for the reasons Jeri said, I just think toning down type effectiveness would be best, but only 1.5/2.25 / 1.5/2.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:49 PM   #68
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What about 1.5/2.5?

Unless you want to see even more Scizor
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:53 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Char View Post
What about 1.5/2.5?

Unless you want to see even more Scizor
This is actually a decent idea. I knew there was a reason I liked you Char.
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Old 08-06-2012, 01:53 PM   #70
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2.5 doesn't really make sense either. Plus it still cripples Pokémon like Parasect and Jumpluff.

I'm sure that out of 'mon with 4x weaknesses most have crap typing that gives more weaknesses as opposed to being Magnezone or Scizor with a boatload of resistances.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:00 PM   #71
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Eh. 1.5 and 2.5 works. But I still fail to see why we can't just use 2/3.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:03 PM   #72
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x2/x3 doesn't really solve the problem. x4ers aren't the problem, IMO.

> Mozz rules?

Are awful.
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Old 08-06-2012, 02:07 PM   #73
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Actually I changed my mind. I think that 1.5/3 is the way to go. Jeri's right; it doesn't cripple super effective attacks enough that people still won't want to use them, but it means that some of the types considered weaker because of their defences i.e. Rock, Ice and Grass will become more usable. 3x I think is more workable than 2.25 or 2.5. It maintains roughly the scale that the games use, it is frankly easier to work out and it doesn't render things with many double resistances invincible. Scizor, for example, is well defended but can be hit very hard with Fire moves. Health and Energy levels themselves should not change.

Those who wish to tell me that they told me so should feel free to do so.
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:47 PM   #74
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I'd still be in favor of testing out bumping up health and energy, while either maintaining the same scale or going to x2/x3 as the standard. However, at this point as long as we come to a clear decision, I'll be happy.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:25 PM   #75
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Shuckle, that idea is bad and you should feel bad.
;_;

I thought it was a good idea but modifying the super effective multipliers is a good idea too.
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