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Old 05-18-2014, 01:48 PM   #2101
Heather
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>tries LC battles
>finally gets a win
>replays dont work

Screw you too ScriptSafe for wrecking everything i had set up on PS with your update.
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Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-18-2014, 04:27 PM   #2102
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I use Scarf Rotom-A. And I run Scarf Noivern in VGC just to troll all the little Salamances
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Old 05-18-2014, 04:52 PM   #2103
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Scarf is still viable in LC where priority isn't insanely common like in OU, though Gale Wings/Sucker Punch are still problems.
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Old 05-18-2014, 09:36 PM   #2104
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>LC

Skill link Aipom MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
TASTE MY FURY SWIPES
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Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 07:46 AM   #2105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
>LC

Skill link Aipom MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
TASTE MY FURY SWIPES
You do realize that not only is Return more powerful, but its also more accurate. You dont gain anything from Fury Swipes, since Subs arent very common in LC.
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Old 05-19-2014, 01:55 PM   #2106
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> Skill Link

Reading!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:08 PM   #2107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
> Skill Link

Reading!
Return Base Power: 102
Fury Swipes Base Power (5 hits): 90 (18 * 5 = 90)

Im sorry what?
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:16 PM   #2108
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Except Fury swipes is 9 times of ten effective enough to kill the opponent anyway. And I have Thief to kill Ghosts with.

If Fury Swipes doesn't kill it it means its got eviolite and return wouldn't be doing much more.
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Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:26 PM   #2109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
Except Fury swipes is 9 times of ten effective enough to kill the opponent anyway.
It's one thing for you to make incorrect claims. It's another for you to be so immature that you can't admit when you're wrong and you move the goal posts instead. Myles, please admit that Cloneblazer was correct about Return doing more damage than a Skill Linked Fury Swipes would do.
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Old 05-19-2014, 02:29 PM   #2110
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I'm talking about LC anyway, sure, return does more damage but not by much.
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Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:10 PM   #2111
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>using thief to kill Ghosts

Myles I don't even. Knock Off is about a million times better and allows you to run Life Orb...

oh wait life orb worst item
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:13 PM   #2112
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Thief is good when using a consumable, like Sitrus Berry, and with Eviolite rampant in LC, it's VERY nice to have.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:14 PM   #2113
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>Sitrus Berry

*flips tables and walks out of thread*

Talon wanna make a UPN Victory Road?
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:16 PM   #2114
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Or we could actually live up to the name "Happy Fun Times", realize it works anyway, and forget about it?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:32 PM   #2115
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While I sympathize, I'm actually interested to hear the Thief explanation. It sounds like it would go something like this:
  • you place a consumable item on a Pokémon
  • you teach that Pokémon Thief
  • send them out against a probable Eviolite user
  • they get hit by the enemy; they don't die, say, and their consumable activates
  • they use Thief; they steal the opponent's Eviolite
The idea seems to be that what you lose in Knock Off's power, you make up for in your initial hold item's utility. Be it a Salac Berry, a Petaya Berry, a Sitrus Berry, what have you: you reap the benefit of the initial item and then further reap the benefit of the stolen Eviolite.

It seems like a bit of a gimmick though. If the move were to prove popular, people would begin to expect it; expecting it, they would begin to recognize common Thief users and would switch out the turn you plan to use Thief; and thus you'd do a piddly amount of damage to whatever they switched in while still failing to rob the opponent of a crucial item like an Eviolite. Worse, the plan requires that you don't get OHKOed. Perhaps this is reliably common in LC, I don't know, but from the recent replays Jeri shared it seems like even Little Cup sees its fair share of OHKOs.

Also: I don't think Sitrus Berry is that bad. I ran one on Galvantula (OU) for the longest time per my self-enforced Item Clause (up until the Jirachi draft in 2013; and even then Choice Scarf is the only item I have more than one of on the team); and I ran one on Venusaur for the Champion League Tournament and it worked very well. Not sure why you're knocking it so badly.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:34 PM   #2116
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Talon has it down pat, and its not common yet, in fact Eviolite Slowpoke is more common-and it dies especially quickly to that.

The Average sinfle Fury swipes hit with a Stab in LC dishes around 18-24%-Making tandem Skill Link lethal unless Eviolite in is play-usially letting me take a hit to use my berry and steal the eviolite.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:44 PM   #2117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
Talon has it down pat, and its not common yet, in fact Eviolite Slowpoke is more common-and it dies especially quickly to that.
Well, I don't think there's any "it's not common yet" about it. :\ If it were a viable strategy and not a simple gimmick, there's no reason why it wouldn't have been discovered seven years ago. Thief is a pretty shitty move, and while I understand what you're trying to accomplish with it, there is a reason why even in the big boy tiers like OU and UU players tend to prefer Trick and Switcheroo over Thief. It's not like these tiers don't have consumable item use. (Elemental resistance berries here, Petaya Berries there ...) The fact is that relying on your item kicking in before you use Thief introduces an extra variable. You're screwed if you use Thief on a turn where you have yet to use your item. You're screwed if you use Thief only to gain a choice item. At least with Trick you can return the choice item ... With Thief you'd just be screwed, locked into a weak move with (from that point onward) no additional effects.

What makes Knock Off attractive is the extra damage in Gen 6. Before Gen 6, I could see the argument for why Thief might be "just as good as" Knock Off. "It does a little less damage, sure, but now I gain the item. :3" But even in older generations, you don't typically see Thief on LC sets. Like ...The list goes on. No one uses Thief in Gen 5 LC (where I think it could be argued to be not that far behind Knock Off). Everyone uses either a) no item trickery moves or else b) Trick/Switcheroo, just like OU and UU. This speaks to the long-term unviability of Thief. I mean, I imagine it might net you some wins against beginners and poor players, but once you get to the middle of the tier, it's probably going to be holding you back.

Cold hard numbers speak louder than arrogant opinions -- including our own. If the Thief idea really works well, show us. Show us battles where it works against players with ratings higher than 1400. Show us that you yourself can achieve (and maintain!) an Elo of 1500 or greater in Little Cup while using a Thief Pokémon. That will speak much louder than anything you or we could say based solely on rhetoric.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:46 PM   #2118
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That one battle I was going to show had me kick the ass of a Slowpoke exploiting Trick Room with this method. Then replays broke.

MONKEY the Aipom is my LC All-Star, really, with that little trick up the sleeve.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:49 PM   #2119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
While I sympathize, I'm actually interested to hear the Thief explanation. It sounds like it would go something like this:
  • you place a consumable item on a Pokémon
  • you teach that Pokémon Thief
  • send them out against a probable Eviolite user
  • they get hit by the enemy; they don't die, say, and their consumable activates
  • they use Thief; they steal the opponent's Eviolite
The idea seems to be that what you lose in Knock Off's power, you make up for in your initial hold item's utility. Be it a Salac Berry, a Petaya Berry, a Sitrus Berry, what have you: you reap the benefit of the initial item and then further reap the benefit of the stolen Eviolite.

It seems like a bit of a gimmick though. If the move were to prove popular, people would begin to expect it; expecting it, they would begin to recognize common Thief users and would switch out the turn you plan to use Thief; and thus you'd do a piddly amount of damage to whatever they switched in while still failing to rob the opponent of a crucial item like an Eviolite. Worse, the plan requires that you don't get OHKOed. Perhaps this is reliably common in LC, I don't know, but from the recent replays Jeri shared it seems like even Little Cup sees its fair share of OHKOs.

Also: I don't think Sitrus Berry is that bad. I ran one on Galvantula (OU) for the longest time per my self-enforced Item Clause (up until the Jirachi draft in 2013; and even then Choice Scarf is the only item I have more than one of on the team); and I ran one on Venusaur for the Champion League Tournament and it worked very well. Not sure why you're knocking it so badly.
Im pretty sure Blaze was referring to LC when he was insulting Myles. As we all know, Sitrus Berry only heals 1/4 of total HP, meaning its 100% outclassed by Berry Juice, which basically acts as a Max Potion in LC.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:51 PM   #2120
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In a sense, it helps keep me from being trolled by another Thief user by giving them a second rate heal item rather than the LC Max Potion you see in Berry Juice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy View Post
Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:01 PM   #2121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
That one battle I was going to show had me kick the ass of a Slowpoke exploiting Trick Room with this method. Then replays broke.
I dunno. Not to be mean about it, Myles, but if you've been doing your LC battles as ArtemistheHunter, it looks like your LC record isn't too hot. I can't speak for others, but I know that I wouldn't be persuaded by any of your lost replays if they were against players whose scores are similar to your own. Like I said before, I'd need to see you proving time and again that the strategy works against mid-tier players for me to be convinced of anything. Looking at LC's ladder, Elo 1722 is the highest score right now and Elo 1372 represents 500th place. All of these players, even the one in 500th place, appear to have Glicko scores greater than 1650. So I would probably need to see you using Thief successfully (and winning the entire match too) against players whose Elo scores are at least 1372 and whose Glicko scores are at least 1650 to be convinced of anything. Although I say this as an LC outsider. If the LC ladder is as badly saturated as the Random Battle ladder is right now with high-tier players' alt accounts, then people intimately familiar with the LC circuit should let me know and should also let me know what a more representative Elo and Glicko score of the median player would be.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:34 PM   #2122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
In a sense, it helps keep me from being trolled by another Thief user by giving them a second rate heal item rather than the LC Max Potion you see in Berry Juice
Which, as you stated yourself, isn't common. At the very least not yet. And the whole point of running thief was that you reap the benefit of two items. So why, why do you nerf the first item yourself so badly? Especially since, as stated before, thief isn't common.
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Shouldn’t the Hoff be doing something if he’s still around? I have strict rules about leaving the pool, and I’m sure vanishing the pool out of existence breaks those rules in some way :P
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:41 PM   #2123
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For if/when it does become common.

Also Talon I've done like 10 LCs so far I'm still making my niche in the style.
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Quote:
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Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:45 PM   #2124
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There isn't any reason why Thief will become common. It's a gimmick that's outclassed by Knock Off. Thief limits the items you can use, and many of the "common" users aren't bulky at all so taking an Eviolite isn't important. And while gaining an Eviolite might seem important...

196 Atk Life Orb Aipom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 13-18 (46.4 - 64.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

196 Atk Aipom Thief vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Slowpoke: 10-12 (35.7 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I think definetely scoring the 2HKO on Slowpoke and still having the ability to cripple other Pokemon is far better than just a gimmick
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:50 PM   #2125
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Originally Posted by Myles Fowl II View Post
For if/when it does become common.
So replace it when it actually IS common, if ever at all. No point to use sitrus now.

EDIT: Blaze, do those calcs include eviolite disappearing on the second hit, if not maybe thief has a shot at 2HKO (although I doubt it)
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Shouldn’t the Hoff be doing something if he’s still around? I have strict rules about leaving the pool, and I’m sure vanishing the pool out of existence breaks those rules in some way :P
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