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Old 02-24-2014, 01:07 PM   #1276
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Quote:
Also, again, if people are complaining about the effects of Confusion NOW, I'm very disappointed. Confusion has been around for six generations, from the 100% accuracy of Confuse Ray to the +2 power of Swagger. So, why are we complaining about it now? Not like it has changed at all. These "50/50" arguments wouldn't have held one, two, three generations ago. So let's take a step back, look at all the issues, and see what actually is the problem.
I made this post because I'm getting sick of seeing these arguments. Confusion has been around for six generations, there CLEARLY isn't anything wrong with it.
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Old 02-24-2014, 01:11 PM   #1277
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Refreshing the thread, I see people saying things like this:
Quote:
Confusion is an uncompetitive mechanic for a competitive game.
These players don't speak for everybody, but god damn if this doesn't illustrate the futility of trying to save Liepard's hide. It seems that the current climate in Smogon is one of "the more we can turn this game into Pokémon Chess, the better." Not only does not everyone agree with that decision -- some of us like games with mixed chance and skill -- but in order to achieve that goal Smogon is going to have to alter so many core elements of this game that, by the time we reached the final destination and PokéChess stood before us, we would not even be able to recognize it as the same game that we played on our 3DSes. This kind of thinking keeps being accused of being "slippery slope" logic but it's the logical end point for a community that seems hellbent on stamping out uncertainty from the game.

Honestly ... as much as I love 6v6 Singles, I feel like I am thiiiiiiiiiiiiis close to making the hop over to Nugget Bridge and picking up VGC 4v4 Doubles. PokéBattle cannot come soon enough. T_T
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Old 02-24-2014, 01:52 PM   #1278
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Cross-posting this here while it's convenient to do so. I give it less than a day before it's deleted on Smogon by some trigger-happy moderator for being "off topic" or "baseless" even though it clearly is not.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Quote:
Originally Posted by PenguinX
Confusion is an uncompetitive mechanic for a competitive game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinning
A competitive game should only be influenced by the players' actions; not an outside number generator that decides whether a player gets a turn or not.
Many of the people supporting a proposed ban of Swagger (or, more broadly, all status-category moves which induce confusion) keep suggesting that:
  1. Elements of chance are uncompetitive.
  2. Elements of chance therefore have no place in a competitive game.
I'm going to have to disagree with the second assertion. There are many popular games which are highly competitive but involve varying degrees of elements of chance. Some of the most well-known examples are poker and mahjong. (Not Solitaire Mahjong. Real mahjong.) These games are enjoyed by millions of players all over the world, have professional circuits and organizations, and host regular tournaments which attract the best of the best. Suggesting that chance has no business being in a competitive game is to suggest that mahjong or poker should not even exist. "I should be able to know what you have in your hand. That I have to guess is unfair. It reduces the game to a coin flip." That's essentially what you guys are saying.

There are also many popular games which are highly competitive and have little element of chance. Two well-known examples are chess and Go. These games are likewise enjoyed by millions of players the world over, have professional circuits and organizations, and host regular tournaments which attract the best of the best.

Pokémon, as it exists and was created by Game Freak, is a game that has more in common with poker than it does with chess. There are many elements of chance built into the game.
  • Do you attack this turn despite being asleep / paralyzed / confused / attracted / frozen?
  • Does your attack hit?
  • Does your opponent stay put or switch?
  • Do you land a critical hit?
  • Do you outspeed your opponent?
  • Which ability is your opponent running?
  • Which moves is your opponent running?
Heck, before Team Preview was standardized in Gen 5, one of the biggest elements of chance in the entire game was not knowing what creatures your opponent had until they were sent out.

Therefore, it seems to me to be somewhat absurd that the disaffected vocal minority who want to see Pokémon transmogrified into PokéChess should get their way. You may be tempted to tell the rest of us that if we like elements of chance then we should go play some other game instead ... but I feel like it's we who should be telling you that. ^^; If elements of chance are anathema to your enjoyment of competitive play, then perhaps you should seriously look into playing some other game besides Pokémon. It clearly wasn't designed for you, from the ground up. The accusations that elements of chance have no place in competitive play are patently false given the widespread enjoyment of competitive games with elements of chance built into their very foundations. I mean, heck: if the enormous popularity of the Random Battle format doesn't prove to you that many fans like an element of surprise and uncertainty in their Pokémon, then I don't know what does. Yes, this is OU, not RandBats. We makes rules that suit the needs of OU and OU players here. But to suggest that elements of chance have absolutely no business being in OU is simply ludicrous.
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:32 PM   #1279
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Let us change the subject for a while. I have been thinking about going through one of Serebii's pokémon league thingies with a team following the rules for a grass gym. Why? Because I'm bored and such a team would never work in regular OU.

The gym rules are as followed:
4 pokémon need to be the corresponding type
2 pokémon can be any type you want
Smogon rules and banlist apply.

So I have thought of the 4 grass types I will be using

[email protected] orb / lum berry
Chlorophyll
Modest 42 HP / 252 sp.att / 216 speed
Growth
Giga drain
Sludgebomb
Hidden power fire

A very good chlorophyl sweeper and bulky enough to get that growth going. Lum berry if status proves to be irritating. Venasaur also has the advantage of absorbing toxic spikes should I encounter them.

Tangrowth @ Life orb / lum berry / fly resist berry
Chlorophyll
Adamant 4 sp.att / 252 Attack / 252 speed
Power whip
EQ
Growth
Hidden power fire

Physical chlorophyll sweeper to compliment Venasaur, nothing special

Trevenant @ Sitrus berry
Harvest
Impish 252 HP / 180 defence / 76 speed
Leech-seed
WoW
Substitute
Phantom force

Staller pokémon and I really like this one and this seems like a fun set to use

Breloom @ Life orb
Technician
Jolly 252 attack / 4 HP / 252 speed
Spore
Mach punch
Low sweep
Bullet seed

A much needed priority user, incidentally Bullet seed takes care of Liepards provided no full paralyses sets in.

So far my grass pokémon, next are two support pokémon. The obvious one is either Ninetails or Charizard-y for sun boost. Ninetails has the advantage of the ability to hold a heat rock, while Charizard-y can hide my sun sweep intentions. The last pokémon needs to be something that handles Talonflame or it will tear through this team. I've been thinking about Tyranitar without sandstream for abusing pursuit or Mega-Mawile. I would have liked to use Mesprit or Cresselia for lunar dance / healing wish but Talonflame...
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Old 02-24-2014, 02:43 PM   #1280
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Somewhat on topic: I've long wanted to run a league system on UPN. I get distracted by breeding my favorites rather than breeding for VGCs or this project though. But I would like us to have our own circuit here. I think it'd be very fun and promote team building on legit cartridges. (A shame that importable hackmons are accessible once again, but oh well. HONOR SYSTEM, HO~!)

Back to your topic 100%: Good luck with your challenge. I guess the few small comments I'll offer ...
  • With Venusaur, be wary of Greninja. Some variants are running Extrasensory to get around the mega form's Thick Fat and this could affect you too.
  • I was reading that Low Sweep isn't as popular on Breloom anymore because it got boosted in base power this generation, rendering it less good with Technician than it was previously. Some people seem to suggest using Power-Up Punch instead since it's like a poor man's Swords Dance that has the added bonus of synergy with Technician. *shrug*
  • I think I'd say go for Ninetales if you're planning to run the Heat Rock anyway and that's the primary focus. You'll appreciate sun lasting longer and Charizard Y is the predicted Charizard anyway. (No one would guess X before Y, all other things being equal, and definitely no one would guess X before Y seeing it on an all-grass team.) However, my understanding is that Charizard Y is generally the better pick, so if you don't think you need more than five turns of sun (and really only three to four once we account for switching Charizard out) then maybe he's the way to go.
  • Ask Blaze for recommendations on an anti-Talonflame.

Last edited by Talon87; 02-24-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:10 PM   #1281
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>anti-Talonflame

Heatran with either HP Rock or Ancientpower.



YUSH~ 91st place get! (Randbats)
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:17 PM   #1282
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Whoa, when did *this* happen!? Man. Juisho's been languishing in the 1600s for a while and I haven't touched Suisho since he was still above 100th place but ... judging from those scores of 1822+, I'm guessing that Suisho will be lucky to be in 200th place now! ^^; Hmm. Well, I'll stick with Juisho for a little while longer. If he's too polluted with losses to have any hope, I may bounce over to Suisho and see if he can surpass Traptrix Atrax. We'll see.

But yeah, good job, man! Congratulations!
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:21 PM   #1283
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Thanks Talon. And as I posted that, I got haxxed out of a win. Oh well.
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Zelphon - Today at 5:29 AM
If the current political climate has taught me anything
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:07 PM   #1284
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>Kush snark PM x 1000

...this... is possible? Christ.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:07 PM   #1285
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An amazing Talonflame counter/check? is Rotom-W. Just saying.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:46 PM   #1286
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If you're looking for a Grass Type Talonflame counter, Scarfed Rotom-M works well with Discharge, since Flare Blitz isn't priority, as does Bulky Cradily.
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:49 PM   #1287
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Reply for Blaze that I'll withhold from posting there (Smogon debate about banning Swagplay) because "BASELESS SPECULATION! *DELETE*" would be imminent.

Spoiler: show
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeVA
The problem with Prankster Swagger is that it's impossible to revenge kill, but without Prankster you could use Choice Scarf. Gen III didn't have CS, so there were impossible to revenge kill Swagger Pokemon. And yet? Swagger was never banned.
The parallels continue. Like Liepard, Electrode isn't exactly star material. Even in Gen 3, Electrode was consider UU at best; by Gen 5, it had fallen to NU, right where Liepard rests. Like Liepard, Electrode had decent stats in theory (base 80 SpAtk, base 140 Speed; compare with base 88 Attack and base 106 Speed for Liepard) but fragile defenses and no way to really augment those mediocre offensive stats. Like Liepard, Electrode was nigh-on uncatchable in an era which predates Choice Scarves, widespread priority, and faster threats.

And yet? Not only do you not see a single Smogon set recommending Swagger + Thunder Wave on Electrode back in the day ... not only do you see a different gimmick set for the OU recommendation (sub four times, then explode with berry-boosted power? :\) ... but you don't see a ban back in Gen 3 against Swagger, speedy Swagger, or Swagger used in conjunction with paralysis.
I wonder what would it be like if you simulated the Gen 3 playing field but you ran the following?
  • three to six Electrodes
  • each knows Swagger, Thunder Wave, Substitute, and Foul Play
  • as noted above, Foul Play would need to be present (and work as it does currently) despite this being a Gen 3 test
It's just a thought experiment, though one we could put to the test on Showdown, the result of which I imagine would be not dissimilar from these Parafusion Prankster teams. With absolutely no Pranksters, no Choice Scarves, and very limited access to priority, I imagine that the same complaints people have with being trolled by Parafusion Prankster teams would surface with a 3+ Parafusion Electrode team.

Blaze, if you want to set the team up, I'd be more than happy to playtest this with you. Let's give these bastards some empirical evidence. Even if we end up proving they're right, so be it. I want the truth. Just tell me who to bring and I'll try my best not to fuck it up. Ten battles, ten battle logs, should be enough to prove the point one way or another. I think it'd be ideal if I brought Gen 3 Pokémon exclusively with Gen 3 moves; for you, I don't know what you'd need to bring to satisfy these critics. (They keep pointing to Scarf Ditto and Talonflame being what typically accompanies the pranksters, so if you were to run 4 Electrodes + 2 Others instead of running 6 Electrodes, it might be hard to stay within the confines of a strictly Gen 3 meta that will please everybody. *shrug*)

Actually, I say ten battles, but we'd need to do an equal number of battles with the one person still using the diverse Gen 3 team and the other person using Liepard + Klefki + Murkrow + Tornadus, etc. That way you could really solidly compare. For example, if Team Electrode's score is 7:3 and if Team Klefki's score is 8:2, that would be different than if Team Electrode's score is 2:8 and Team Klefki's score is 10:0.

Possibly too much effort. Ż_Ż *already having second thoughts* *so lazy*
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Old 02-24-2014, 04:50 PM   #1288
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Rotom is the best counter to everything Talonflame
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:02 PM   #1289
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If you want to do that Talon, I would be more than pleased to wipe the smirks off their faces get some nice empirical evidence. We should discuss in on PS.
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Zelphon - Today at 5:29 AM
If the current political climate has taught me anything
It's that a purge via gay witches may very well be necessary
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:04 PM   #1290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeVA View Post
If you want to do that Talon, I would be more than pleased to wipe the smirks off their faces get some nice empirical evidence.
I'm on as we speak making the team I asked you to make. Four copy+pasted Electrodes and then I struggled to think who to add that would approximate Choice Scarf Ditto and Talonflame. Best I've got for Gen 3 is Aerodactyl (revenge killer like Ditto) and Salamence. Probably a horrid team , but who knows!

If you have ideas in mind for a dedicated Gen 3 team for me to copy+paste, just say the word. Ludicolo, Metagross, Jirachi, Latios, whomever. You tell me what to build. It's been too long since I did Gen 3 and I value your judgment.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:06 PM   #1291
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From what i've seen from the almighty Smogon, Pokemon like Ttar, Swampert, Celebi, and Blissey were pretty key. Gen III was pretty TTar centric.
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If the current political climate has taught me anything
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:16 PM   #1292
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Warning Advice: Don't open this until we've fought at least once or twice and you feel you already know "all of the surprises." Spoiler: there are pretty much no surprises. Cookie cutter lifted straight off of Smogon RS so as to please the critical crowd. Feel free to dump this code into Showdown to make the team yourself. Feel free to make changes as necessary.

Spoiler: show
Electrode @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger
- Foul Play

Electrode @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger
- Foul Play

Electrode @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger
- Foul Play

Electrode @ Leftovers
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Def / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger
- Foul Play

Aerodactyl @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Flying]

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 200 Atk / 16 HP / 120 Def / 172 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Taunt

Last edited by Talon87; 02-24-2014 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 02-24-2014, 05:25 PM   #1293
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Spoiler: show
Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
Serious Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Focus Punch
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 40 SAtk / 216 Def / 252 HP
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump
- Protect

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spd
Timid Nature
- Calm Mind
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Dugtrio @ Choice Band
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Aerial Ace
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
- Spikes
- Drill Peck
- Whirlwind
- Toxic

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt


So much cookie cutter abounds. Same warning as above.

Spoiler: show
Deoxys-Speed @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Swagger
- Thunder Wave

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Foul Play
- Swagger
- Thunder Wave

Thundurus (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Foul Play
- Swagger
- Thunder Wave

Liepard @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 248 HP / 8 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Foul Play
- Thunder Wave
- Swagger

Murkrow @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 248 HP / 8 Atk
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Foul Play
- Swagger
- Thunder Wave

Ditto Lord (Ditto) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 Def / 248 HP / 8 SDef
Bold Nature
- Transform
- Transform
- Transform
- Transform
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Zelphon - Today at 5:29 AM
If the current political climate has taught me anything
It's that a purge via gay witches may very well be necessary

Last edited by Emi; 02-24-2014 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:40 PM   #1294
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I think the most ridiculous thing about this whole controversy is that Swagger is completely negated by a switch and SwagPlayers can do nothing to Special attackers/all walls.

From what I can tell, people are upset that the hyperoffense is being fucked with and they need to get over themselves.
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:43 PM   #1295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
I think the most ridiculous thing about this whole controversy is that Swagger is completely negated by a switch and SwagPlayers can do nothing to Special attackers/all walls.
See, their counter argument to this is that
a) nothing is stopping the swaggerer from using Swagger again next round, and
b) most of these SwagPlay teams run hazards as well, causing you to be unable to switch much.
I mean I guess I see where they are coming from?

(Also they don't want to start running stuff just to deal with SwagPlay. At least, that's what I could draw from most of the comments.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost™ View Post
In Mother 3 Swampy was Flint and you were Hinawa. You two were a wonderful couple. Icarus was your dog, and Toy and I were your twin sons. Well, until a dinosaur impaled you through the heart. So yes, where is he!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Panda View Post
#still
#fucking
#salty


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Old 02-24-2014, 06:44 PM   #1296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
From what I can tell, people are upset that the mega offense is being fucked with and they need to get over themselves.
I don't want to spoil all the fun surprises, but our first four games would corroborate this. What we've found in our first four (without giving too much away) is that whether it's Team Electrode or Team LieKlefNadus, swagplay really, really doesn't like Blissey. ^^; People have been saying that in the thread but have been disparaged by calculator-crunching asshats who insist that Blissey is not a suitable answer. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell ... ^^;;;; You'll just have to see for yourself once we post all the logs. hahaha

If Blaze wants, I can post the first four for your guys' viewing pleasure. But be warned: some of them can get rather long. (Not Sneezey's hungry hippo of 120+ turns long, but still pretty damn long.)
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:45 PM   #1297
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Yeah, if you want long battles you should watch the FF tier battles where I use Aromatisse.
I think my record is 150 turns? Yeah. So Proud.
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Inactive Ref, laziness op~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost™ View Post
In Mother 3 Swampy was Flint and you were Hinawa. You two were a wonderful couple. Icarus was your dog, and Toy and I were your twin sons. Well, until a dinosaur impaled you through the heart. So yes, where is he!?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Panda View Post
#still
#fucking
#salty


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Old 02-24-2014, 06:45 PM   #1298
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Talon and I have done are doing some playtesting of our own, we can get back to you with our results. We have been using a "standard" Gen III OU team and testing it against Team Electrode, and against a modern "Team Klefki". This is too see whether or not Prankster really can be considered the main problem.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:29 PM   #1299
Red Panda
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Not sure what to say here.

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It took me a while to realize that Torrent had activated, but I nearly pulled out the "gg" since it was apparent that he was going to win. Guess not ^_^ I'm happy to be back in the 1500's, hopefully moving higher.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:46 PM   #1300
Talon87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Panda View Post
Not sure what to say here.

Spoiler: show
It took me a while to realize that Torrent had activated, but I nearly pulled out the "gg" since it was apparent that he was going to win. Guess not ^_^ I'm happy to be back in the 1500's, hopefully moving higher.
It's definitely easy to forget about the less-popular abilities like that. I know I sure do.

EDIT: Sneaking this one in here -- Post #8 in the Smogon thread -- because once again I worry it's going to be deleted for either being off-topic, unpopular with forum staff, or both. ~_~

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukain
Unless you can disprove the evidence that this can allow a less-skilled player to beat a more-skilled player without any use of skill, then your argument holds no water in this debate.
Disprove that SwagPlay can enable a less-skilled player to beat a more-skilled player? There is no disproving that because it's a fact: SwagPlay has the potential to allow the less skilled to triumph over the more skilled. However, this is true of every strategy under the Sun. Imagine if someone like yourself were to say these statements in other debates:
  • "Unless you can disprove the evidence that Deoxys-S can allow a less-skilled player to beat a more-skilled player without any use of skill, then your argument holds no water."
  • "Unless you can disprove the evidence that SubSeeding can allow a less-skilled player to beat a more-skilled player without any use of skill, then your argument holds no water."
  • "Unless you can disprove the evidence that Choice Scarf can allow a less-skilled player to beat a more-skilled player without any use of skill, then your argument holds no water."
It's impossible to disprove any of these because they're all true: potent strategies enable positive outcomes for those who use them. Heck, even impotent strategies can get lucky once in a blue moon. Strategies are not banned because they can enable the unskilled to triumph: strategies are banned when they ensure that their users will triumph.

So the burden should not be to disprove that SwagPlay can ever be used by a less-skilled player to defeat a more-skilled player. The burden should be to prove that simply using SwagPlay does not ensure victory. If it guarantees victory every single time, even in inept and inexperienced hands, then it's patently unfair. If it promotes victory without guaranteeing it, even in skilled and experienced hands, then it's no different in this one regard than the myriad other strategies we all make use of to boost our chances of winning.

Last edited by Talon87; 02-24-2014 at 09:17 PM.
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