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Old 06-22-2012, 09:37 AM   #101
phoopes
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Kuno, you mean UPN Challenge Cup or regular Challenge Cup? Either way, I'll be available, unless something unexpected comes up last minute. (Which has been happening to me the last few days, for whatever reason.)
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:01 AM   #102
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Yeah, regular CC. I'm on my phone so its hard to type much or talk much on there. I can get on now cause I'm bored but I'm on break now.
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:18 AM   #103
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Guess I'll sign in.
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:23 AM   #104
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All right, I'll be there as well.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:14 PM   #105
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Final scores (in terms of UPN wins and losses) against Kuno's kids:

Talon: 1-2
Rangeet: 0-1 (had to leave)
Kind: 2-0
phoopes: 2-1
Yuki: 2-1

I blame hax and mistaking Unfezant's sprite for Gloom's with my glasses off. *pout* Otherwise I think it was fairly typical CC: you win some, you lose some, hooray randomness. Apparently one girl in Kuno's group was quite lucky and was racking up the wins. Makes me wonder if the other kids were burdened with their unfair share or losses then.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:03 PM   #106
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Kids are back for now
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:53 PM   #107
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Turns out I missed a lot of a long discussion, but, as a UU player, I would be perfectly fine with a teir between UU and OU. I really don't get what others might have against it- if you're a UU player that enjoys what you have in UU, just use it in the new teir. :/

Though, Talon, what you said about legendaries always dominating is flat out false. Articuno? Regigigas? Moltres? Celebi? Entei? Mesprit? Azelf? Uxie? lolPhione? Shaymin? Cobalion? Virizion? None of these 'dominate'. That isn't to say that they aren't usable- that's the entire point of tiers, to give everything a use- but they don't dominate. If something is really dominating that much, then it should be sent up to the next tier. Notice I said 'sent up' rather than 'banned'- too often do people equate being 'banned' with being no longer usable. It just means that they're in the next level of play, and you're gonna need big guns if you wanna play with the big boys.

Actually, imop, if their was a tier between OU and UU, all of your team members would likely be in it. Actually, that would be one hell of a awesome tier.

Actually, WAIT ONE SECOND. We're an online community, are we not? We have a personal channel, do we not? We could just craft up our own list for a... Fairly Used? Tier, use it against eachother, and eventually gather up support from other communities until it become a reality in places other than UPN! ^_^
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.

Last edited by Kindrindra; 06-22-2012 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Used wrong 'they're'
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Old 06-22-2012, 05:05 PM   #108
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We could just craft up our own list for a... Fairly Used? Tier
F U?
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Old 06-22-2012, 05:06 PM   #109
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Err.

Okay, maybe the name needs a little more thought.
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-22-2012, 05:29 PM   #110
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Remind me where RU is? Also isn't BL between UU and OU?
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Old 06-22-2012, 05:34 PM   #111
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RU is below UU, above NU.

BL is between UU and OU, but it's not an actual tier for some odd, strange reason- just a banlist for UU.
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-22-2012, 05:35 PM   #112
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You could just do what I used to - be awesome and use UUs in OU. It's fun, especially when you win.
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Old 06-22-2012, 05:37 PM   #113
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BL is a pseudo-tier with current occupancy less than 20. We were talking about an actual tier in that spot, one which would nab the bottom third to half of current OU and the top quarter or so of current UU. To give you some idea of who you could expect to see there ...
  • Ferrothorn? No.
  • Jirachi? No.
  • Landorus? No.
  • Drizzle Politoed? No. (due to frequency of use, it remains in OU proper, too bad so sad )
  • Starmie? No.
  • Gengar? No.
  • Latios? No.
  • Heatran? No.
  • Staraptor? Yes.
  • Yanmega? Yes.
  • Mamoswine? Yes.
  • Togekiss? Yes.
  • Tentacruel? Yes.
  • Hippowdon? Yes.
  • Skarmory? Probably.
  • Cradily? Yes.
  • Raikou? Yes.
  • Latias? Yes. >_>
  • Azumarill. Probably.
  • Ampharos? No.
  • Vileplume? No.
  • Typhlosion? No.
And on down the list you can go. Things that are too powerful and well dominate OU would remain in OU. Things which would rape UU and so have been shuttled to OU but which are stagnating in OU rather than thriving there would go into this new bracket. Things which are too goddamn common at the top of the UU metagame would also find themselves bumped here, allowing UU to rediversify as a metagame instead of being the OU Junior it's become.

Not saying you have to like or agree with this idea. Just clarifying that this was the discussion.
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Old 06-22-2012, 06:14 PM   #114
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I'd definitely have some beef with Skarmory in FU. It's a wonderful physical wall that's used on a lot of teams in OU, and there are already lots of walls in the FU tier in the first place. Because can you really disagree with Chansey, Jellicent, Dusclops, Deoxys-D, and others, not to mention the fact that UU walls would be allowed as well. As a physical wall, it outclasses all listed above in terms of physical defense save Dusclops, but Skarmory also has reliable recovery in Roost whereas Dusclops does not. Based on the amount of usage in OU and a probable centralization around it being used as a wall, I would be against seeing Skarmory in FU.

Also, I'd support the name Gently Used or Moderately Used over Fairly Used, even though it is quite fun to use its abbreviation.

EDIT: Also, I just thought of it: If we really are going through with this, we need a full list of candidates.
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Old 06-22-2012, 06:45 PM   #115
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Skarmory can be OHKO'd by non-STAB Flamethrower? Yes. (Togekiss, regularly.)
Skarmory can be OHKO'd by non-STAB Thunderbolt? Yes. (Starmie, regularly.)
Skarmory is scary powerful? No, not usually.

He's a good wall. So is Tentacruel. So is Weezing. So is Chansey. So are a lot of other UUs. I agree that Skarmory is OU in the IRL tiering system ... but if we were to discuss whether he's OU top half or OU bottom half, I feel like he's OU bottom half. The top of OU bottom half, but still OU bottom half.

But hey, if you want to keep Skarmory locked out of FU, I am happy with that.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:02 PM   #116
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Well, we could vote on each on a case-by-case basis. I personally would vote for Skarmory for OU, and it looks like you'd vote for it for FU, GU, MU, whatever. Anyway, I have compiled a list here of things in OU that certainly have no place in a lower tier, in my opinion. If everyone else feels the same way, then we can go from there with what to allow and disallow. I think that it's good to narrow it down a little bit from the 110 UU, BL, and OU Pokemon that we have to pick from.

Definitely OU:
Blissey
Conkeldurr
Dragonite
Ferrothorn
Heatran
Jirachi
Landorus
Latios
Ninetales
Politoed
Salamence
Scizor
Terrakion
Tyranitar

Iffy, but I personally think should be OU:
Alakazam
Breloom
Gliscor
Gyarados
Jolteon
Latias
Lucario
Metagross
Reuniclus
Rotom-W
Skarmory
Starmie
Tornadus
Virizion

Under what I have here, 28 Pokemon would remain in OU, while the leftover 22 would be on for debate in FU. Of course, I know that the Iffy list will definitely be disagreed with, but I don't know of anyone that could disagree with the guaranteed list I made. But if you do, feel free to make your opinion heard. There's probably one or two things I didn't think of, so point those out.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:07 PM   #117
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Really the only disagreement I have with the list is Tentacruel, who (frankly) I feel is UU. (Mega super "I am King of the Hill" UU but still UU. To hell with what his official status is.) Other than that, I think I would agree with that list.

Btw, I have no real desire for us to make our own UPN tier in between OU and UU. But if we want to try it and (lol) if it catches on, that'd be pretty cool.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:09 PM   #118
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Oh, I forgot Tornadus for the Iffy list. Knew I'd forget something! Anyway, I think it's worth a shot to make one, even if it's just for shits and giggles. Like you said, if it catches on, great! If it doesn't, there's not really anything lost.

Tentacruel: Personally, I think Tentacruel would lose its usefulness a bit in the new tier, mainly because of the fact that Rain Dish gives it more viability. Without a perma-rain Pokemon in FU, I think it would actually do better in OU than in FU. Not to say that it would be bad in the new tier... actually, by that logic, it won't be too broken for FU. So I guess I'll take Tentacruel off the list and put Tornadus on.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:15 PM   #119
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I want to say Starmie seems a little more GMFU, but I have to admit I've never really used one, and should probably play with it a little myself before I cast an opinion on it. I have the same opinion as Talon on Tentacruel, though.

Here's my IffyIffy list of things I need to try out before voting them either way:
Starmie
Breloom
Virizion
Metagross


brb, got some testing to do.
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Quote:
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:05 PM   #120
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In looking up the numbers to explain to Kind why he's wrong about Starmie, I find the same numbers to explain to the both of us why we're wrong about Tentacruel. Gotta love doin' your own homework.

Smogon's Pokemon-Online % Usage for OU in January 2012:
Code:
Total battles: 193244
 Total teams: 386488
 Total pokemon: 2318468
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon         | Usage  | Percent | RealUse| RealPct | 
 + ---- + --------------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- + 
 | 1    | Scizor          | 115131 | 29.795% | 95445  | 29.589% | 
 | 2    | Dragonite       | 94170  | 24.370% | 74804  | 23.190% | 
 | 3    | Rotom-W         | 90180  | 23.338% | 81458  | 25.253% | 
 | 4    | Heatran         | 75896  | 19.641% | 64983  | 20.145% | 
 | 5    | Tyranitar       | 73732  | 19.081% | 65871  | 20.420% | 
 | 6    | Ferrothorn      | 69106  | 17.884% | 60648  | 18.801% | 
 | 7    | Politoed        | 63048  | 16.316% | 58773  | 18.220% | 
 | 8    | Terrakion       | 58050  | 15.023% | 44615  | 13.831% | 
 | 9    | Jirachi         | 56666  | 14.665% | 47998  | 14.880% | 
 | 10   | Latios          | 54773  | 14.175% | 44785  | 13.884% | 
 | 11   | Gliscor         | 52927  | 13.697% | 43762  | 13.566% | 
 | 12   | Landorus        | 49178  | 12.727% | 41817  | 12.964% | 
 | 13   | Starmie         | 45934  | 11.887% | 36347  | 11.268% | 
 | 14   | Skarmory        | 44112  | 11.416% | 38099  | 11.811% | 
 | 15   | Tentacruel      | 40507  | 10.483% | 33790  | 10.475% | 
 | 16   | Celebi          | 38971  | 10.085% | 33251  | 10.308% | 
 | 17   | Gengar          | 38010  |  9.837% | 30519  |  9.461% | 
 | 18   | Magnezone       | 33750  |  8.734% | 27697  |  8.586% | 
 | 19   | Breloom         | 32130  |  8.315% | 26594  |  8.244% | 
 | 20   | Gyarados        | 31425  |  8.133% | 26140  |  8.104% |
Source: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3461630

As you can see, Starmie is on roughly 10% of all teams. That's substantial. By comparison, OU heavyweights you'd never doubt like Gengar and Gyarados clock in just beneath 10% and beneath Starmie in terms of overall usage.

Starmie is amazing because of the variety of roles he can not only fulfill as an expert but he can even double-dip into as an apprentice. He can be a dedicated SpAttacker, he can be a dedicated entry hazards cleaner-upper and annoyer, or he can be both. I have mine be both but only because having him be a dedicated SpAttacker was suicide on my team with all the entry hazards in the metagame when I started playing on P-O. Nowadays I should really probably reconsider having Rapid Spin on him and instead put Psychic or Recover or some other move there, but meh, the moment I do that I'm sure I'll notice all the entry hazards destroying me so for now it stays.

Great typing, great stats, just an all-around great Pokémon. I've loved him since UPN was just a baby and thirteen years later he still gets the job done like the champ that he is.
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:25 PM   #121
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Fun fact: Starmie and Gengar are the only two Pokemon to remain OU throughout all five generations. Going into 5th gen, Zapdos still fit this, but has since been dropped down to UU.

Also, didn't expect to see Celebi and Magnezone that high up in usage. I knew they were both popular, but that's really something that they made it into the Top 20.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:31 AM   #122
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OMG REGIGIGAS GETS CLEAR BODY????

Is this true because I am seeing this on Serebii and I am aware that this may be wrong.

Also, I am very afraid of Giga Drain Venusaur. This may make it way too powerful.
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:42 PM   #123
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Until further notice, I'mma gonna say no.

But if that's true... OU or Ubers, just like that. High enough stats for Ubers, but a horrid offensive type, without the SD or ES that makes EKiller Arceus so good.
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-23-2012, 03:05 PM   #124
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Getting Clear Body would be amazing if only because it means not having Slow Start. Never mind that it itself is a pretty good ability. (Not the greatest in the pantheon of abilities, sure, but not everyone can have Levitate, goddammit. )
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Old 06-23-2012, 03:07 PM   #125
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Getting Clear Body would be amazing if only because it means not having Slow Start. Never mind that it itself is a pretty good ability. (Not the greatest in the pantheon of abilities, sure, but not everyone can have Levitate, goddammit. )
Yeah Regigigas would be GOD powerful if it has any ability other than Slow Start or Truant.
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