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Old 08-10-2015, 05:38 PM   #51
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Right. Completely agree (and have from the start, from before the start!) on the subjectivity of art. Post 1 = wanted to offer a different POV from Yuki's as this scene was a particularly big deal to me growing up, Post 2 = wanted to clear up with you that I don't think it's fair of you to say "people who dislike BB movie scene have no business trying to watch Batman anything". Post 3 I guess = cheers.
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Old 08-10-2015, 06:27 PM   #52
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I remember one of the few Batman Beyond episodes I did have the "displeasure" of watching as a kid is one which involved killer rats. That scared me pretty bad, I can only imagine what this scene would have done to me had I been that age to see it.

Still, it's an enlightening moment for me as an adult since, from what little I knew of him (having never read the comics except for maybe one Catwoman issue), I honestly always saw the original Joker as a pretty harmless camp villain. I figured the "psycho killer" angle came from the Nolan movies trying to be "dark" and "edgy". It took this to make me see the cartoon Joker as a genuine threat, similar to Hisoka from HxH.

Whether you like it or think it's appropriate (for children's television), I think it's fair to recognize the real dangers of dealing with these types of insane criminals - and exposing actual children to them. That's part of what fascinates me so much to learn about the Red Hood story, since it delves into the reality of "death in the line of duty", as well as Batman's philosophy on killing and personal failing as a mentor. I was rewatching the NC's top 11 B:TAS review earlier (I'd seen it before this thread but decided to revisit it now that I've familiarized myself a bit more with the series), and was amused by the observation that Batman took on an even younger ward after Dick Grayson left, calling him the "worst parent ever". And I agree!

And yet, from what I've read Tim Drake sought out Batman in the comics after the events of "A Death in the Family" because he believed Batman needed a Robin to maintain his sanity. It's probably no stretch to imagine Batman does consider his caped companions his family (they are informally called the "Bat Family" after all). Having partners to protect the city with comes at a price when he can't protect them though. It was depressing to learn in some continuities Batgirl was also shot and paralyzed by the Joker (seriously fuck that guy Edit: I just read the details of what actually happened and seriously FUCK THAT GUY). That the Joker specifically taunts the Bat by acknowledging Robin and Batgirl as his "kids" on more than one occasion means he knows they're one of his biggest weaknesses to get to.

It's an interesting dynamic to pick apart. As much as I'm sure the "sidekick character" was mostly invented to appeal to younger audiences, it does open a lot of doors to potential tragedy. If nothing else, the movie scene in question probably served as a good deterrent for some wannabe Robins at home.

...*sips tea and calmly drinks in more despair*
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Old 08-20-2015, 01:49 PM   #53
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I KNOW THIS ISN'T RELATED TO THE ANIMATED SERIES BUT I NEED TO TALK ABOUT MY JASON TODD FEELS

LIKE

HOW DID THIS EVEN HAPPEN

I FOUND THIS SCENE FROM THE COMICS LAST NIGHT AND IT LEGIT MADE ME CRY AND ROLL IN DESPAIR.

Spoiler: show
AND APPARENTLY HE WILLINGLY GIVES UP THE MEMORY???


P.S. Somewhat on topic, the fact he's voiced by Jensen Ackles in the animated movie "Under the Red Hood" wins bonus points. *shot*
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:39 PM   #54
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I did not notice that he was Jason Ackles and now I can't unhear it.

Anyway yeah the Jason Todd thing is pretty interesting, some writers do it better than others, he's an interesting antithesis to a lot of Batman. Lots of feels too!
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Old 08-21-2015, 02:39 PM   #55
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Actually watching some episodes of TAS has been pretty depressing, knowing what eventually happens to the characters - especially Tim Drake. Everytime it stings when the "Boy Wonder" shows such wonder and that he is, in fact, just a boy. It clearly stands out how much of a kid he is (swinging his legs on Gordon's desk when the adults are talking, playing with Bruce's spinny chair, asking for more allowance, Bruce nagging him about his schoolwork, etc.). Following the last example, when Mr. Freeze deconstructs Bruce Wayne by pointing out how he's tried to replace his family with surrogates, threatening his "son"... It really brings home how hard it must have hit for the youngest member of the Bat-Family to go through that ordeal in the BB movie.

I watched most of the film as well, and seeing how disillusioned with the "hero gig" the senior Drake had become was also sobering, compared to his youth when he would proudly proclaim "hero time" before rescuing a "damsel in distress". (As an aside, am I the only one who finds it disturbing that quote is first on his Wiki pages, considering it's the last time he thought highly of being a hero?) The movie brings up the argument that Batman's sidekicks never really had a choice in the matter, that they were molded and manipulated from a young age to face danger by trying to emulate him - to "give 100%" and then "give [him] more". There's a scene in the same episode of Mr. Freeze's return where Bruce is training Barbara, and won't let her rest until she beats the laser level, stating the cold (pun unintended) truth "dead is dead". She even reveals her childish side by sticking her tongue out at him in response... And I think this whole exchange - in conjunction with the one upstairs where Tim calls Bruce out on learning blatant disregard for the legal system from him - illustrates the unfortunately imbalanced relationship these kids have with a parental figure whom they look up to as both a role model and teacher. For him, who sees them as his wards, he pushes them hard in hopes they'll survive... But at the same time it instills in them a feeling they have to prove themselves to the old man. (Another aside: Someone also noted the creepy irony of the revived Joker telling Bruce to watch his transformation by saying "it's a killer" when that's the same line Dick Grayson told Tim to watch out for Bruce's last move during their first training session.)

It just makes me sad to see what a messed up situation their lives became, when they started out with such high hopes and enthusiasm. It's all "fun and games" until someone loses an eye... Or his mind. It goes back to Jason Todd as well. DCAU Tim arguably suffered worse than he did, and he was the brightest and most optimistic of the bunch... Another thing that somewhat surprised me to learn from viewing the full film was that, even though Tim may have (thought he) recovered from the psychological damage Joker inflicted on him, it was the knowledge that he killed the Joker that still weighed on him and gave him nightmares. A stark contrast from Jason, Tim still desperately wanted to hold onto his innocence and moral beliefs, despite everything Joker had done to him. There's an episode where Tim even has to be Batman's voice of reason and keep him from killing crooks (since he'd been dosed with a version of Scarecrow's gas that takes away fear). To lose his hold on that part of him may have been an even bigger blow to his ego than letting the Joker get inside his brain.

I'm just kinda ranting here so I'll stop... But I guess what I'm saying is it's hard for me to enjoy the main series - especially as someone who never saw it as a child - now knowing what becomes of our caped crusaders in the end. I suppose it's like trying to read Harry Potter in reverse. For a generation that grew up with Batman and Robin, I wonder what it was like seeing childhood heroes age and face such adult struggles and horror.

To note, I did check out earlier episodes of the original seasons as well, and stuff like "Harley's Holiday" was quite fun (the kiss she gives Bats at the end is priceless - although did anyone stop to think it was gross considering she just "made a mess on his cape"?). Seeing a side of her that really wants to reform is sweet, but then it comes back to the reality she helped the Joker do such cruel things... And again I'm conflicted. Seems she finally got over her criminal past in the end but... Idk.
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Old 08-23-2015, 01:57 AM   #56
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Sorry for the spam I just

watched "Knight Time" (the Superman-Batman crossover where Superman pretends to be Batman; technically part of the Superman animated series but idc) and at the end Superman says

Quote:
"For someone who's supposed to be such a loner, you sure know how to pick a partner."
*muffled screaming*

This is what I've fallen deep for, despite all my misgivings about comic book heroes. Even I've always been aware Batman's generally portrayed as a brooding loner, but as far as I know he actually has the most allies who've flocked to him over the years??? I can't handle all these Bat Family feels, man.

Poor Tim... It seriously makes me squirm and so scared for his safety whenever he's on screen, acting all confident when he's still just a kid. He claims he "could've handled it" by himself when a bunch of crooks pull their guns on him, but what if Superman hadn't come in to save the day?

PROTECT ROBIN 2K15

*is 20 years too late* GDI.

*curls up in a ball and cries instead*
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:11 PM   #57
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What episode was that?
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Old 08-23-2015, 11:18 PM   #58
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What episode was that?
Episode 43 of Superman: The Animated Series.
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:45 AM   #59
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Thanks for that. I think I saw that episode, but forgot.

...

I think the phenomenon you're describing with knowing the future is not unique to Batman. I've never played a MegaMan game, but I did see the Duane and Brando YouTube video of MegaMan 2, and it's extremely poignant just knowing that Megaman X exists after that. Because in the Megaman X series, the utopian future depicted in MegaMan has been destroyed, and with Megaman X built upon its ruins as vague, un-related reincarnations. It's very moving that all the meaningful conflict of the original series has no lasting impact on the world 100 years later. Compared to human society today, which is still very influenced by events in 1915, and 1815, a hard reset like Megaman X felt pessimistic and gloomy.

Such thoughts are a big reason why I want to have a hand in some big, important step toward humanity's future. Because life is short, and the struggles of my personal life mean nothing before the history of the human race. Destiny has even dictated that my grandchildren, or at the very least great grandchildren, will never know or care about me. You're just an irrelevant atoll in the sea of time. So think about the future and do something to help humanity...your contribution, however small, will have an unknowing impact far beyond one mortal's lifetime.
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Old 08-25-2015, 09:49 PM   #60
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I liken it to my MCA viewing experience. I stand by the saddest scenes for me were when the group was simply having fun and acting like a family, since I knew what would happen to them eventually...

Browsing eps of Justice League now, and thinking about Bruce's history with women (because I also find it sad he ended up a lonely old man in DCAU, especially after seeing the BTAS episode "Chemistry"). I like Diana as a love interest. Never been a big fan of the Catwoman angle; she represents seduction and the thrill of the chase - good for a game of "cat and mouse" but I can't see her settling down as a long-term partner. When I watched The Dark Knight Rises I didn't sense any real chemistry between them and thought it weird/rushed they ended up together.

I know Talia's the other leading lady in Bruce's life, but while I'm not that familiar with her role she seems kinda like a crazy bitch??? Apparently she drugs and rapes Batman in the comics to produce his son Damian? Like wtf.

Although he acknowledges he has a weakness for femme fatales, I think Bats would be better off with someone also on the side of justice like Wonder Woman. All the reasons he gives for not dating her are pretty BS IMO, especially the last one since she's a strong hero who can clearly take care of herself. (Plus shouldn't the fact she's a princess and he's a rich kid mean they're suited for each other? *shot*)

When I reconcile it with the events of RotJ though, it makes sense... Presuming JL's continuity occurs after the Bat Family split up, it explains why Robin/Batgirl/Nightwing never show up or are mentioned. (As an aside, initially I was reluctant to check out the first season finale because NAZIS, but when I saw this screencap cameo I squeaked and had to watch it. Why do I get the feeling in this AU Tim/maybe even other children would've gotten captured by the enemy and subjected to Nazi-style experiments hahaha... *stabs self* Did I mention I also found some trivia that they were planning to include a shot of bloody surgical instruments on the table during the RotJ flashback? Thank God the censors put their foot down at that...)

What happened to Tim probably feeds into Reason #3, and as for #1... I read the dirty details of what went on between Bruce and Barbara in Batman Beyond 2.0 and... Ugh. Writers why u do dis. Please stop tearing this family apart.

To Bats' credit, the article is incorrect in saying Dick and Barbara were still involved at the time Bruce slept with her. Dick had moved to Blüdhaven, but came back to Gotham after he heard about Tim and rekindled his romance with Barbara. Bruce confirms he and Barbara were in a relationship after Dick left. So it's not as bad as direct cheating, but still squick.

I kinda wonder though if this is why Robin was on patrol by himself that night... *imagines the guilt if Tim got captured while Bruce and Barbara were making out or something*

...What no I'm totally not thinking of angst fic ideas. *shifty eyes*

Tonight's installment of "Yuki destroys herself over DC characters" has been brought to you by Joker Toxin™! Great way to get your kids to smile!

Edit- Just read a comment on YT that according to DVD commentary, the events of RoTJ occur after JL/JLU. Can anyone confirm this? It does make more sense for Batman to be lax enough to coorporate with the League then. And that could also explain his whereabouts that night.
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Old 08-26-2015, 03:40 AM   #61
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Am I the only one who wanted Bruce to get with Andrea Beaumont?
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Old 08-26-2015, 05:45 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
Am I the only one who wanted Bruce to get with Andrea Beaumont?
I haven't yet watched Mask of the Phantasm but I'll probably get to it at some point. Already caved and saw Under the Red Hood. (I'm gonna end up watching all the Bat animated films aren't I.)

In the meantime...

*spazzes over the DCAU comics* Holy shit there are so many cute Bat Family moments in them I can't even

I MEAN LOOK AT THESE DORKS



The series even ends with Bruce accepting he could use their company and cooks pancakes for all of them... (It's too bad Barbara wasn't there, but she understandably needed to be with her real father. Although on that note, the story kinda scarily echoed The Killing Joke/RotJ... *shudders*)

I love how Nightwing is a recurring character who hangs out at the Manor and acts like a big brother to Tim. Tim totally picks up on his terrible humor omfg. It even starts within the opening pages of the first issue.

My favorite reveal(s) though:

Spoiler: show


TIM SLEEPS WITH THE BATARANG AS A TEDDY BEAR *explodes with headcanon he looked up to Batman for comfort whenever his dad was off being a criminal* (Judging from this panel and this he probably did? I really wish I could read the whole comic since it fills in the gaps after Dick Grayson's departure... And then this just confirms he was a bad kid once but he's trying to do the right thing now thanks to Batman's example ugh can I please hug him)

AND SPEAKING OF TEDDY BEARS

BATMAN TRACKED DOWN THE CIRCUS JUST SO HE COULD RETRIEVE DICK'S TEDDY TO HELP WITH THE NIGHTMARES AFTER HIS PARENTS' DEATH

DADBAT BEST BAT

Damnit I know I've been distracted by Jason's and Tim's hardships but Dick is a precious orphan baby bird too... It gets even better when it turns out Bat started collecting trophies for Dick's sake, since the original Boy Wonder really wanted to keep the giant dinosaur from one of their first outings together. XP And in the end... He did. <3

I like that the comics flesh Nightwing out as his own persona, calling attention to the fact he was raised to be in the spotlight (what prompted the trophy room was the fact Bruce forced Dick to take down his circus posters and memorabilia, so as not to remind people he was a trained acrobat for the purpose of hiding their identity). Hence when he moves to Blüdhaven, he starts making more public appearances on TV and is friendly towards the citizens. Ties into one of Dick's reasons for leaving in the "Old Wounds" ep to begin with, since he couldn't stand Bats' style of constantly scaring people half to death.

And yet, in a surprising reversal, there's a story involving Two-Face where Dick seems to be more understanding of Batman's coldness than his current protegé - at least when it comes to members of his own team. That level of maturity he's gained shows he definitely deserves to be a hero in his own right.

*sigh* The trust Dick still has in Bruce makes the eventual "betrayal" with Barbara even more bitter... Bats why'd you have to become such a dick (*shot*) and break the rest of your family apart... The Joker had already done a good job of that... *cries* I blame the writers for trying to be more "dark" and "edgy". Just give me more beautiful Bat Family feels like this please...


*sadly crawls to bed at last and curls up under blankets with Batarang bear*

P.S. Alfred is awesome. 'Nuff said.

...Although expanding on that, there's an issue where Alfred dresses up in a costume that fools everyone since Tim wants to fight a more "wacky" villain... Be careful what you wish for, boy. >.> (But then he feels really good at thinking he helped change a person's life and aslkdjaljf)
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Old 08-26-2015, 11:38 AM   #63
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You should watch Phantasm, it gives you serious Bruce Wayne feels and also gives you some interesting flesh on the bones of some other characters. It's basically the Batman Begins of the DCAU and it's quite fun.

Also the soundtrack is gorgeous.
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Old 08-26-2015, 04:57 PM   #64
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Quote:
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You should watch Phantasm, it gives you serious Bruce Wayne feels and also gives you some interesting flesh on the bones of some other characters. It's basically the Batman Begins of the DCAU and it's quite fun.

Also the soundtrack is gorgeous.
Watched it.

Brucey is a sad boy.

Spoiler: show


That line in particular strikes a chord with this scene from "Chemistry". While I thought the episode was sadly rushed, it was nice to see a potential romance and chance at a happy life for Bruce fully explored in the film. And now I know where this burn comes from:



The graveyard speech is pretty depressing since obviously his parents would want him to be happy (and probably not risking his life to fight crime), but he's so hung up on a childhood promise it clouds his judgment... He thinks he doesn't deserve happiness...

I knew some spoilers/scenes going in, but I wasn't expecting something of an origin story for Joker, so that was a surprise. I do prefer his background remain a mystery for the most part, but it was a cool twist. Up to then I kept thinking "when will criminals learn to stop making deals with the Joker it never ends well damnit", but it makes more sense if they were partners in the past when he was still sane. ...Maybe it's just me, but I kinda favor his revamped appearance in The New Batman Adventures (Catwoman was definitely a step down though). *shot for unpopular opinions* Idk I think the soulless eyes work, as it is uncomfortable to be reminded he was once human... Plus I just think the red lipstick looks silly. ^^; RotJ's design was a good compromise.

On another note, seeing "Future Gotham" was kinda eerie given the existence of Batman Beyond's universe. Again, knowing the fate of the franchise gives me more mileage out of certain elements... Like the quote from Andrea's father that "Nothing's more important than family"...


Honestly that might've been part of what was missing from Nolan's version of Batman for me, since I saw all three movies due to the hype but didn't really feel anything for them. I don't care about Batman as a cool dark crimefighter (heck I skip most of the fight scenes when I'm watching episodes/reading the comics) - I want to see Bruce Wayne recovering from the pain of his parents' death, if not through romantic love, than by looking after his group of misfit children who've also experienced loss and regard him as a father. Make the world a better place by showing compassion and guiding a new generation, you know? There's even an issue in the DCAU comics where Batman tries this tactic with Clayface by introducing him to a child who (nevermind the science behind it) is "melting at a molecular level" and hopes Clayface will teach him to be able to control his cells.

With The Dark Knight trilogy, "Robin" wasn't even introduced until the third film, and then only vaguely referenced... Bruce spent no time training or getting to know him, and simply ran off with a cat burglar he just met... Not buying it. On the contrary, I daresay I liked the Batman & Robin movie more (fight me), if only for this scene with Alfred and Bruce's interactions with him as he's dying, since Alred was as much a father to Bruce.

Anyway... On the subject of BB, been thinking about the dinosaur more and the fact (I believe) it shows up again in the Batcave in the future. Did Dick send it back after his final falling out with Bruce? =/ (And yes I'm aware the trophies have different origins in the mainstream comics but I'm keeping within the DCAU for speculation purposes.)

Also can I just go back and say I love Dick's face in this first panel? Like he knows Alfred's fine but tagged along anyway for appearances' sake. (Speaking of smiles, Tim's lopsided grin at the end of "Old Wounds" is just my favorite thing. <3 Batbros 4 lyf.)
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Old 08-27-2015, 01:24 AM   #65
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*found a way to read the DCAU comics*

>Gotham Adventures #10

>Robin gets gassed by Joker toxin

>tells Nightwing to go after Joker

>Nightwing's response, pulling out the antidote:

Quote:
"Forget the noble stuff, Robin... I'm saving your life here. And saving my own, too... You have any idea what Batman would do to me if he came back from Tibet and found out I let you get hurt?"
...*lies down*

P.S. Have some more Robin feels from The Lost Years:

Spoiler: show

And then Bruce messes up those plans by sticking his dick in Dick's business GDI.


Tim's dad actually did kinda care about his son... FML.

On a related note I like the chapter where Tim runs into one of his dad's old friends, "Dagger" Dixon, who recognizes him as Robin. (Apparently it ties into a previous issue of The Batman Adventures where Dagger ran into Batman and the first Robin. Nice continuity nod, may have to check those out too.) I was afraid he'd turn on Tim and rat him out, but he kept to his word and helped protect the Bat Family's secret. It's nice to know Tim did have a somewhat positive adult in his life growing up, even if he was dumb and ran with the wrong crowd. This was also where this panel appeared and it was actually Tim's idea to fool Penguin with "exposing" this information, since his past was already publicized. He turns down Dagger's attempt at asking for Bruce's money as a favor and basically handles the whole situation well. Proud of ya, kid. He really is "Timmy Todd" - born with Jason's background but with Tim's wit and morals.


Okay, so maybe he's not as much of a detective as the actual Tim Drake, but can I just say he reminds me of Luke Triton here?


*settles in for more reading* Gonna be a long night, folks.
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Old 08-27-2015, 04:17 AM   #66
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I don't know, I really struggle to get on board with the Bat family thing. Fundamentally Bruce is an awful human being and actively destroys the lives of everyone who gets close to him. Yes ok lots of them already had terrible lives but that doesn't excuse what he does to them, asks them to do, makes them sacrifice. The fact that he cares about them and that some of them have childhood innocence about them in the odd panel doesn't excuse that for me.

Nightwing is still one of my favourite DC characters though. /hypocrite
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:59 AM   #67
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Fundamentally Bruce is an awful human being
Depends on the canon and headcanon, I suppose, because I take the opposite position. I'd say he's fundamentally good but that he's imperfect, capable of making mistakes just like the rest of us. I don't side with the interpretation of Bruce Wayne as someone who only adopted Dick Grayson (officially or unofficially) because he wanted a sidekick, that he's horrible for allowing a child to place themselves in great danger. Sure, we can argue that he made a mistake in respecting Grayson's wishes, that he ought not to have treated Grayson as a slightly younger version of himself, but I think we can just as well argue that in allowing Grayson to join him he treated Grayson with great respect. Hopping over to Tim Drake, we have an easier argument of irresponsibility on Bruce's part, but his selfishness doesn't imo automatically make him "fundamentally horrible." He's not fundamentally horrible. He's a good man with good intentions, but he's been hugely irresponsible to allow a child of (say) ten to join him on crime fighting expeditions rather than simply adopting him, home schooling him, and disallowing him from joining Bruce on his nightly excursions until he's older.
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Old 08-27-2015, 08:21 AM   #68
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I appreciate the point, but personally I don't think it matters which canon you go by. Bruce is categorically wrong to take on child sidekicks whether he's camp and played by Adam West or dark and brooding and voiced by Kevin Conroy.

A good example of what I mean can be found here. 2:50 for the general thrust of it but 5:00 if you want the actual point immediately. Wonder Woman criticises the Robin thing and Batman justifies it as being to stop that kid from turning in to a vengeance driven crazy person like him. Well, that's bollocks. Wonder Woman is right. What Bruce should actually have done is used his god-tier resources to get Dick Grayson the best start in life, acting as a father figure or getting him foster parents - whichever. It is never acceptable to turn children in to superheroes - regardless of their own desires - that's just fundamental duty of care. He absolutely is horrible for allowing a child to place themselves in great danger. You can slightly excuse this by acknowledging that Bruce Wayne is also completely insane but that just makes him an unfit parent by default.

Deliberately destroying any chance a child has of becoming normal and putting them in harms way night after night is not an irresponsible mistake. It is a crime for which he should be locked away if we're really being honest with ourselves.


...

This is all slightly moot as basically everything about Batman is fundamentally the wrong approach given his ability to pump billions in to the police force, social welfare, infrastructure, medical facilities blah blah. And you get why they do it, so that younger readers are easier to bleed money from.
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:53 PM   #69
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Bruce is certainly no prize parent and has plenty of personality faults/problems dealing with people. I hesitate to call him "awful" though. Granted, there a lot of different interpretations of the character and story. But I still prefer to see the times he's trying to work with others for their good rather than getting caught up in his crusade for justice.

Obviously, you have a point that were this the real world, none of this would fly in the first place. I agree exposing children to deadly risk in any way is ridiculous and deserving of punishment (although from what I hear Bruce at least tried to put Jason in a home for troubled kids at first), and RotJ just goes to show the results of that decision. But like you said, the whole point of Batman/comic book heroes is to get kids to buy stuff, and having young sidekicks makes it easier for them to relate. Still, within that fantasy realm life lessons can be taught.

It even seems many of the DCAU comics exist to stress for kids the importance of wholesome family values and second chances. It's a recurring theme throughout the series: The power of family as a motivator, and the lengths one will go to protect it. I pored through all the Gotham Adventures issues last night (well, except one that mysteriously got switched with The Batman Adventures, in which Dick considers quitting college to become Robin full-time again - make of that what you will; too bad about the swapped issue though, I wanted to hear about Harley's romance novel =3=), picking out all the parts that demonstrate BatFam camaradarie or the idea of changing someone's life for the better. (I will point and squeal over every single one. You cannot stop me.)

Spoiler: show
I'll just start off with some small things that caught my eye (since I'm going in chronological order):


Nothing really big happening here, but I just find it not-so-coincidental Bruce is having this discussion with his first adopted son while working out together. He's debating whether to allow a mob boss meet his biological son, who was switched at birth. (The one he thought was his son previously died in a shooting.) The meeting itself has the mob boss repeating almost the same words as Andrea's father, that his own dad taught him "Family is the most important thing." His son rejects the offer to take over the business, stating that although "the man who raised [him]" was always working and couldn't promise him much, he made sure the boy could eat, had clothes, and went to school. "I guess my dad taught me the same thing yours did," he says before expressing condolences and asking not to be bothered again. Bruce trusts ths boss to keep his word, stating to Dick that he's one "who knows what it means to lose everything" while later looking at a picture of his parents.


Talking about yourself there, Timmy? Just want to use this to illustrate Tim's satisfaction after talking Alfred a high school kid out of making a dumb mistake. He also thanks Dick and Babs for "caring". (They had also tried to fool him by dressing up in silly costumes for him to fight, since he was frustrated over constantly dealing with killers and pyschos without making a permanent difference. Bruce was actually the one who secretly enlisted Alfred's assistance to help Robin feel better.)


Batbros just being bros. Again, nothing major, but I want to take a moment to appreciate Dick being a music buff. Or just buff. *shot* (The thing he's holding is a guitar slide, which he was able to recognize immediately when the others were stumped.) It comes up throughout the series and actually helps them solve a couple cases. I kinda like this little exchange he has with a kidnapped musician after rescuing him thanks to musical clues he left in Riddler's message that Dick picked up on. Also the image of him wearing his headphones while chilling out at the Batcave talking to Barb amuses me (forget which issue).


This is actually from a Barbara-centric chapter where she realizes she should spend some time with her dad after teaming up with him as Batgirl, and together they chase down two killers who escaped to see their dying mother. I think the message here is sufficient though.


I thought about leaving this out since your post made me think of how they do sacrifice a lot of their personal lives for work, but I still see this as a bit of a bros before hos moment. Their meeting was scheduled beforehand (minus the unexpected trap) so it was Nightwing's responsibility to keep track of his dinner date. (Incidentally, they were never in any real danger since the trap was set by Catwoman for Batman, who was too dense to realize she just wanted to talk to him. Batman's repeated "What?" in confusion when Batgirl teases him is admittedly pretty adorable.)

And speaking of Catwoman... Issue #33 is a pretty big one where Batman appeals to his parents' grave on their death's anniversary, lamenting that he doesn't feel fulfilled/liberated from guilt after all he's done and wondering if they'd be proud of him - or what they could've had if they were still alive. The Phantom Stranger appears to show Bruce Wayne an alternative future where his parents survive and he marries Selina Kyle (I guess she could be a good match for him as proof of his efforts to reform crooks, although idk I still don't care for her brand of attraction or cats in general), fathering two children and living a happy life in Paris away from Gotham most of his life. When he asks to see what happened to the others though, it turns out both Dick and Tim fell into the criminal life (with the latter working for the Joker c'mon guys - not to mention Dick smokes because he's a bad boy now) without Bruce there to guide them. Oh, and Babs follows in her father's footsteps as a police officer but he dies at the end in a big blowout between all the parties. ...Yeah. I'm not including images since I'm not sure how I feel about the development as a whole; it seems somewhat of a stretch for the sake of ego-stroking. There's no guarantee what was shown is possible or what really would've happened. Setting aside suspension of disbelief though, it's a thought to consider.

I will, however, present this full page from a different issue where Batman takes note of a young man who always seems to show up where trouble does since he simply goes along with the flow. Batman arranges the whole team to put on an act so the guy can feel like a hero and be inspired to take on a job at a community center. Tim asks why go through so much trouble for one person, and Alfred cuts in. The rest is pretty self-explanatory, as their reactions say it all.



Completely unrelated:


This doesn't have any significance beyond Bruce showing typical concern for Barbara but I really just want to ask: Bruce Wayne, why are you wearing a stupid Charlie Brown sweater? *shot*

Back to seriousness, Tim offers his own POV of his relationship with Batman:


Note: That's Tim undercover. Btw in a previous issue he told Flash in response to asking how he puts up with Batman that "You get used to it. Besides, he's the best. He's not the biggest or strongest... Or the fastest. But he always wins. Because he never quits." Kid totally idolizes the Batman, for better or worse.

This post has already gotten really long so I'll just end with another full page from the last issue, in which Dick says it clearly: They're a family, there to help Bruce in his time in need. Until Joker ruins all their lives and Bruce drives the final nail in the coffin.



When I entered my Batman phase, I read a couple articles discussing the role of Arkham and whether Bats is really as crazy as the criminals he fights. I don't believe he's a psychopath, and that fundamentally his goal is not just to fight crime but improve people's lives. Even at the end of The Killing Joke, Batman offers to help Joker, despite everything he had done. ...But of course if the villains don't keep resisting treatment and breaking out of Arkham, then there wouldn't be a Batman to sell root for, would there?

I may not agree with some of his methods, but at least he has had an impact in the eyes of Gotham's youth. There's even an early issue where a child citizen ends up saving the day because he wasn't afraid of Batman after Scarecrow gassed everyone, including Batman, to be scared of his image. There was also one where Batman carries a baby around while fighting crime to "protect" it since everyone in the world was after it and the Batcave apparently wasn't safe enough because Ra's knew its location. (A stupid reason, but whatever it's fiction.) In the end he risks having his identity revealed in order to give the baby a normal life with its parents, saying it's "no choice at all".

Are vigilantism and child endangerment good things to promote? No, and I'm not saying they should be - I even saw in the reader comments a parent questioning the advocation of violence as a solution. (Heck, this whole thing kinda reminds me of a recent controversy I read over a family taking a Batman-themed photo by a traintrack with their toddler dressed as Robin, and received threats as a result.) As an adult, I understand the concerns. ...As a newly converted fan(girl) with an admitted taste for tragedy, I say: Just give me happy family feels... And then BRING ON THE DESPAIR AHAHAHA *gets dragged off to Arkham again*

*cough* Basically, in summary: It's a cartoon/comic. ...Do you really expect realism?
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:21 PM   #70
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I cannot stop laughing over Bruce's face in the last panel.
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Old 08-27-2015, 11:30 PM   #71
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Warning: copy and paste that link because it has a no-hotlinking redirect.

...

It looks pretty JoJo-esque to me. With a little Don Knotts splashed in.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:48 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Warning: copy and paste that link because it has a no-hotlinking redirect.

...

It looks pretty JoJo-esque to me. With a little Don Knotts splashed in.
I'm just amused at Bruce's obvious irritation with the cop's incompetence and inability to go into "Batman mode" so he has to accept a beatdown. (He was arrested as a murder suspect since he couldn't explain that he got into a locked room with the victim as Bruce Wayne by leaping to the balcony from a floor below.)

The nice thing about the DCAU comics is the similarity of artstyle to the cartoon. I've never been a big fan of "gritty" realistic Western comics, so this is at least easy enough on my eyes to follow.

I do have to say I like Bruce Wayne's design in the earlier seasons of BTAS. He looks older and more expressive. New Bruce Wayne better fits the "billionaire playboy" appearance, but he's so rigid.

Mentioning this since I watched "Robin's Reckoning" Parts 1 & 2 earlier. Killing myself with feels.

Spoiler: show

Baby bird needs all the hugs.

It really was sweet and sad to see Bruce bonding with Dick over their parents' deaths. Though it's no excuse to let him be a crimefighter at his age and put him in constant danger, Bruce does try to protect his kids when he knows it's too risky. He didn't allow Robin to come with him after Zucco since he was afraid of losing Dick too... I was reading about Bane breaking Batman's back in the comics after Talon's commentary in the movie thread earlier as well, and saw Bruce didn't ask Dick to step in as his replacement because he didn't want Dick going after Bane. Also, in one of the Gotham Adventures issues he doesn't bring Tim on a mission since there are too many men with machine guns. (Plus it's a school night.) It's not much in the way of parenting, but it's something.

I definitely do think that, even if it's against his better judgment, Bruce appreciates having the company around when on patrol. Part 1 opens with the two staking out on top of a tower, with Robin chatting away while Batman merely responds in "uh-huh"s. When Robin sarcastically comments how lucky he is Batman is "such a great conversationalist", Batman says nothing but secretly gives him the biggest grin (and after Robin leaves adds with another smile "good thing we had that little chat"). Somehow I can't see new Bruce Wayne making that sort of cheesy open expression and remark. It's a kind of camp that's slightly cringe-worthy but cute. (Also Robin's "All riiiiiiight!" was adorable.)

In addition there are the faces he makes in Part 2 when he realizes Gordon has come to talk about Dick after the two were having fun fencing. First he gives a reassuring smile to Dick, then after he leaves slowly reveals the disappointment. Just the little droop in his lips shows he's torn at the thought of Dick leaving. Having been alone for so long and robbed of his own childhood, it must've been nice having a youthful spirit - a friend who understands the same pain - around the house for once.
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Old 08-29-2015, 03:14 AM   #73
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Reading these comics is like freakin' diabetes, man.

There's also an issue of The Batman Adventures where at the end Bruce says "I know what it's like to be part of a family and then the sidestory is about how much he trusts Batgirl and aragdjksdgjk

Lots of feels from the villains too like wow good thing I saw the Mr. Freeze film right before in a livestream. (On another note it's weird feeling more of an expert on a series I've only recently gotten into than other fans who grew up with the show. I get way too obsessed with things. OTL)

Although on the subject of child endangerment there was one where Robin (Tim) is randomly driving the Batmobile with Batman beside him??? He mentions driver's ed so does that mean he's at least 16 by then? He doesn't look any different... But then I know there were some Static Shock crossovers that I think were supposed to show Robin as older/joining the Titans at some point so idk.

And now I'm about to dive into the family fallout story arc in BB haha wish me luck~ 8DDDDD

Edit-

Spoiler: show


HE WAS GONNA PUT THE RING ON A BATARANG

A FREAKING BATARING

YOU WERE GONNA CALL IT THAT WEREN'T YOU

I'M SO DONE WITH YOU DICK AND YOUR LAME PUNS

*cries, flips does and storms out*
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Old 09-10-2015, 04:59 AM   #74
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I am so angry right now.

So I was rewatching Static Shock x Batman crossover eps in order to get a better sense of the DCAU timeline and

Spoiler: show
in the "Future Shock" episode, Static tells Robin "He's teaching you. Making sure you'll be ready for whatever. I think you're kinda lucky."

Static then gets sent 40 years into the future, where older Bruce has been expecting him and asks for his assistance rescuing his future self...

Later Static asks if there's anyone else who can help, like Robin. To which Terry responds:

"Robin? He's... A civilian now."

...

I'm sitting here thinking: WHY THE HELL DOES NO ONE ASK STATIC TO WARN PAST BATMAN AND ROBIN THAT TIM WOULD EVENTUALLY BE KIDNAPPED AND TORTURED BY THE JOKER???

I mean this came out after RotJ and clearly acknowledges the implications... I get there's a fear of disrupting the space-time continuum, and Bruce is such a stickler I can see him choosing not to say anything, but... Come on. You could've saved a kid's sanity. Or at least tried.

The only explanation I can think of is that Bruce rationalizes his decision not to meddle with the past by perceiving the end result of Tim giving up crimefighting and living a (relatively) normal happy life as a good thing. But... It's still a dick move considering the suffering he went through. God Bruce why'd you have to become such a genuinely fucking awful human being. -.- I seriously hate the writers for doing this to you. (Yes I know I'm probably overanalyzing but I just can't stand the laziness of neglect towards his development. Complete douche!Bruce is sickening.)

Past!Batman says he'd rather not know his future at the end but imagine Robin asking Static if he saw him... *cries*

And if he ever found out/realized Bruce had a chance to prevent it... It's Under the Red Hood drama all over again. OTL


Speaking of which I really want to talk about how much I love DCAU Tim for being a hybrid Todd/Drake. He is officially my favorite Robin, and I'd like to think it's not just due to first exposure or overaffection in hindsight. Setting aside RotJ for a moment, I don't mean to measure in terms of tragedy, but quality of character (although tragedy factors in obviously by considering how one personally deals with it). As much as I've been reading about other Robins and admiring/lamenting aspects of their stories, Timmy Todd is definitively the best Robin in my book. Not the best in terms of ability or helping Batman (else he wouldn't have gotten overpowered so easily), but he has the best combination of origin and personality. The DCAU tie-in comics make it clear that while he was born to a criminal background, he always disapproved of his father's actions. While he resorted to stealing in his dad's absence, he only took things he needed to survive (whereas unfortunately but understandably Jason had to start extorting money by ripping off car parts to support his mother's drug addiction, according to his version in post-Crisis history). I rewatched his introduction episode and noticed an easter egg foreshadowing in there being a Robin Hood statue outside his bedroom window. As little bearing as the myth has on the Boy Wonder's conceptualization, I think there's something to be said for a Robin being able to empathize with the lower class, when Bruce Wayne is inevitably a billionaire who can philanthropize all he wants but never claim to know the hardships of living on the streets. One of the heaviest scenes in an already heavy episode, "Growing Pains", is when Tim is wandering in search of Annie and comes across homeless families and children. There's no dialogue, but it's obvious he recognizes how lucky he was to be adopted by the city's richest socialite and wishes there was something more he could do to help others in worse situations.

While he can be impetuous and hot-headed, especially when emotional as any kid his age would, he doesn't have Jason's severe anger issues - perhaps because he received more love from his biological father than he realized or wanted to acknowledge. (Though a crook his dad did what he did to put food on the table after all. Tim telling himself his old man wasn't coming back for him anyway might have just been a way of coping with the loss.) Still, since he wasn't as close to his dad, he's not initially driven so much by vengeance over loss as Dick or Bruce Wayne himself, but simply because like his namesake in the mainstream comics he believes so strongly in Batman as a heroic symbol and in doing the right thing (plus looking cool while he does it but hey Dick's a show-off too). It's not just pure fanboyism in that he's actively trying to fight against the kinds of sins he was raised to commit. He's akin to Terry McGinnis in that regard, but Terry made his own choices not out of necessity and didn't even have a Batman growing up to look up to. Tim's moral fibre and compass in the face of his past mistakes is what elevates his status for me. He's a balance of all the best elements that gave him the potential to be an amazing role model in his own right. He's basically redemption along with boyhood idolism and idealism personified... And the fact RotJ undermines all that makes it even more depressing.

In short: Tim is a precious cinnamon roll and I am still not over how much he didn't deserve such a horrible, horrible fate. (Actually in a way DCAU Tim's closest counterpart in the mainstream comics might be Stephanie Brown, now that I'm learning more about her. Hm. That's a weird meta concept, considering she was Tim Drake's girlfriend.)

Also plugging again the tie-in comics are awesome and IMO better than the show. At least the latter season. (Seriously I watched the "Critters" episode and just... WTF were they smoking.) There's continuity, better overall storylines, and more characters/plot points are utilitized to their fullest potential. (I also saw the Firefly episode recently and was rather disappointed Nightwing wasn't in it, because music is totally his thang. Schway. *shot*) One of the Batman Adventures issues had so many hidden layers of things happening my head and heart both hurt by the end of it, and it didn't even focus on the Bat Family at all. o-o
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Old 09-10-2015, 05:47 AM   #75
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Batman says that interfering in the timeline is bad in pretty much every time travel episode, so I doubt he would want to know even to prevent RotJ.
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