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Old 01-07-2012, 04:45 PM   #26
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I also never used them because they were popular, but I also didn't shun them when they did. I used Scizor before he became god and continued to like him. Also Victreebell in sun teams.

Also not signing up due to not having PO.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:47 PM   #27
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>Garchomp

Garchomp is Uber anyway, so you wouldn't even be facing one, let alone two of them.

>Yanmega

Yanmega was OU last generation, but is RU this generation. Same goes with Cresselia, and a few other 'Mon. Some things just fall out of use, but not without good reason. I'm not saying that Yanmega isn't useable, it's just that there are much better options, even when only confined to Bug types.

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There's 9 dragon lines. Maybe 11, I'm pretty sure [email protected] without Soul Dew was okay last time I played comp so I don't think it'd be too limited.
Latios and Latias with Soul Dew are both banned to Dream World Ubers nowadays.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:48 PM   #28
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Smogon's list contains Excadrill, can anyone explain that one to me? (Also Blaziken, but I understand that if not agree with it). Personally I'd allow both but yeah, majority rules.

And the Dragon user has a lot of very good Pokémon but they pretty much all share a 4x weakness so literally every team that can will pack an Ice move, double edged sword of being the obvious favourite is that everyone will tool up to beat you.
Blaziken:
Blaziken was likely banned because, in OU and all lesser tiers, the only real counter to Blaziken is to cough up anywhere from 1 to 1.99 of your own Pokémon. This was usually done by:
(1) staying put until Blaziken killed your guy who was currently out
(2) switching in your guy with Focus Sash and having him either do a stab attack (which breaks Blaziken's sash and reduces him down to 1 HP) followed up with a priority attack (e.g. Mamoswine Earthquake + Ice Shard) or else simply doing a mothertrucking powerful attack followed by a priority attack (e.g. Conkeldurr [I don't even care] + Mach Punch).

People in the tourney scene usually don't like it when a Pokémon is guaranteed to kill between 1 and X Pokémon on someone else's team. Any guarantee for at least one kill usually raises some eyebrows. (I mean, even Gengar and Dragonite aren't guaranteed anything. You just highly expect it.) But to be guaranteed somewhere on the order of 2 kills even from the best of OU teams meant it was something many, many people didn't like.

Also: you have to remember, not everyone runs Focus Sash @ heavy hit @ priority hit. So if you didn't, Blaziken kind of forked you over there.

One arguable counter for it was Jellicent (immune to the hi jump kick, resists the blaze kick) but even that wasn't a real counter. It just forced switches. It also forced people into using a Pokemon they didn't very much like just so they had a counter to Blaziken.

Excadrill:
Excadrill was banned for far more obvious and deserving reasons. In sand, Excadrill was suddenly wearing not one but two choice scarves. (a.k.a. its speed was doubled). The same turn it was switched in, whether the enemy switched or not -- Excadrill didn't care as he was never switched in against something which posed him any threat -- he would Swords Dance. Now it's like saying he's got not one but two choice bands on as well. One turn, and you go from being able to possibly win the match to staring down 2x Att, 2x Speed, Ground/Steel. Immune to poison, immune to electricity, and if riding a balloon immune to ground as well. The only way you could hope to kill him was with stab water. But since few water-types run Choice Scarf or Focus Sash, there was no way to hit first and there was no way to survive the hit he dealt you. Whoops, there goes Starmie! Whoops, there goes Kingdra! 738 base attack @ 100 base power Earthquake x 1.5x for STAB = gg, mate.

Again, you can still beat an Excadrill team. (I often did.) But you have to have the right Pokemon for it and if you don't have those Pokemon well then you're shit out of luck. Focus Sash (and no entry hazards on my side of the field!) Mamoswine could usually do the job easily and would net many a forfeit from kiddos who were glibly expecting to sweep me with just Excadrill. Togekiss also did a great job as it was immune to both Earthquake and Shadow Claw (two of Excadrill's three common attacks) and would on occasion get lucky and dodge Stone Edge to then Aura Sphere or Flamethrower the fucker into oblivion. (But that's just luck. And, as you might guess, that too earned many a ragey forfeit from my opponents. lol) Still, though: I would say that when Excadrill was allowed in OU play, one out of every two teams (quite literally) was a sand team and slightly less than one out of every two was a Rain (non-Drizzle) + Swift Swim Kingdra team, the latter not only because it was good in and of its own right but because it was an excellent counter to an Excadrill team provided you could keep the rain pouring down. The moment they banned Excadrill, a modicum of diversity returned to OU. The ban will almost certainly remain for at least the next year. If he ever returns to OU because his usage stats in übers just don't merit him being there, I imagine it will be a short-lived stay in OU before he is promptly booted right back out again. (Same story with all the legendaries who are perennially downgraded to UU only to be kicked back up to OU a few months later.)

You can allow Excadrill if you want, but as a fair warning: whoever has access to the ground-type team will be running Hippowdon + Excadrill and they will ruin this tournament for everybody else.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:52 PM   #29
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It's good to see you took my point about being concise on board.

I can see why ban lists get long.

Okay, so we either ban all of Drought/Drizzle/Blaziken/Excadrill (with the specific abilities, different ability ones are fine) or none at all I guess. Anything else that is dubious? (I notice Garchomp isn't uber on Smogon any more unless my reading has declined)
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:54 PM   #30
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>Talon on Excadrill

I ran Infernape with Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch, depending on the set. So add that to your list of counters.

>LC

Obviously not updated. Garchomp has been banned for a while now.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:58 PM   #31
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It's good to see you took my point about being concise on board.
I wrote the second post the moment I finished the first post. Any and all posts you see in between the two came into being while the second post was being written. Smartass.

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>Talon on Excadrill

I ran Infernape with Vacuum Wave or Mach Punch, depending on the set. So add that to your list of counters.
Not a counter. At least, no more a counter than Jellicent was a "counter" to Blaziken. What you've just described is what we would call forcing a switch. There's no meaning in Mach Punch Infernape if Excadrill is just going to run away. Which is precisely what he's going to do. The incoming attack is too predictable and he'll just switch to (1) a ghost if he's really ballsy and doesn't think you were psyching him out and planning to do regular-priority fire or else (2) something which can handle both.

I agree it's better than nothing. But it's little different than my "lol Mamoswine" approach. Decent if you can bank on the guy being stupid and you being lucky, but otherwise meh. I'm sure Smogon probably classifies it as a "counter," but ... it's only a counter in so far as it's a scare tactic. A mole-killer it is not. Not unless the opponent is retarded or out of Pokemon to send out.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:00 PM   #32
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Garchomp is very much banned. Bulkier base stats than Swampert with awesome speed and attack plus Sand Veil? Very broken.

In a tournament where it's supposed to be fun, it would be better to stick to Smogon's ban list and take some specific broken things in this tournament (Drizzle/Drought) out.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:01 PM   #33
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Can we not have a discussion of comp tactics if possible. Don't want to scare off my last four entrants!
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:03 PM   #34
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I'll be one of those entrants.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:04 PM   #35
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>Talon

True, true. Also, Gliscor and Skarmory worked pretty well. The first could actually kill it if it didn't get the +2 boost. Skarmory could wall it to Hell and back, even with the Attack boost, but couldn't kill it. Would just have to Whirlwind it away.

>Banlists

Here is Smogon's up to date ban list.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/tiers/uber
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:24 PM   #36
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I'm in if there is a slot left.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:26 PM   #37
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There is, and there are two more.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:46 PM   #38
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1: Item Clause, yay or nay?
2: Non-SB Blaziken/Non-Sand Rush Excadrill, yay or nay?
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:48 PM   #39
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I vote nay and yay, respectively.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:49 PM   #40
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Yay for both.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:52 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Kairne View Post
1: Item Clause, yay or nay?
2: Non-SB Blaziken/Non-Sand Rush Excadrill, yay or nay?
Will confirm the rules once I have 17, but the first post already says yay to the former and I'm very much fine with the latter. Similarly regular Politoed/Ninetales are definitely fine.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:55 PM   #42
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Ooo, well, I think I may just give this a try. Admittedly, any matches I'm in might have to wait until my laptop returns to me on Thursday (fingers crossed the problem is fixed and it doesn't have to stay longer), but then I'll be good to go. Wonder what type I'll end up with though *crosses fingers for several*

That is, if there's still a space available. I've just seen the TO post, only 2 hours late.
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Old 01-07-2012, 05:58 PM   #43
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Yougi, you are our penultimate entrant. Next Thursday is cool, I can't see much happening before next weekend as that's when most people would be free I guess.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:03 PM   #44
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The irony of this tourny is that I made a mono Steel team the last time I was on PO.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:04 PM   #45
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1: Item Clause, yay or nay?
2: Non-SB Blaziken/Non-Sand Rush Excadrill, yay or nay?
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Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
I vote nay and yay, respectively.
What Phoopes said. I don't get why the latter two aren't allowed on Smogon anyways.

Then again I remember running Sand Veil Dugtrio because everyone would expect Arena Trap.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:06 PM   #46
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I can't see much happening before next weekend
If the tournament I hosted is any indication, you couldn't be more wrong. Just take a look at when Kuno rolled everyone's characters vs. when the very first battle video was posted.

November 6 @ 10:19am = dice roll results are posted
November 6 @ 5:38pm = first video log is posted

Soooooooo...yeah. I'mma thinking that as soon as you close registration and assign people to their elements, you're going to have people who are eager to start fighting tonight, never mind tomorrow, never mind (lol) next weekend.

But you're the cap'n, cap'n.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:07 PM   #47
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^This exactly. But when I get off work tonight.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:15 PM   #48
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Yeah, I didn't necessarily type what I meant there. I'm sure some keen beans will get right on it, but I wouldn't get concerned about anyone who hadn't started until next weekend, because I know a lot of people are busy in the week. Also not much chance of anyone starting fighting tonight as we seemingly need to have a long row about ban lists and item clauses first (I have one, I'll post it when I'm on 17 and if everyone agrees I'll then allocate types)
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:17 PM   #49
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As far as Item Clause goes, I'm all for it. It forces people to think outside the box and to not run 3x Leftovers, 2x Choice Scarf, and 1x Choice Band. There are some pretty interesting things you can do, too. Sitrus berries, heat and damp rocks, elemental resistance berries, Expert Belt, Wiseglasses, Focus Sash, ... there are things. Things that can be done besides just spamming Leftovers on everything. If the majority rules "No Item Clause!", meh, but if LC wants it, I'll back him up on it. Most people I talked to during my tournament said, "I didn't think I would like Item Clause at first but it made me think of new things and now I kinda like it. "

Note: I don't actually see any mention of Item Clause one way or the other in the OP post. All I see is "once you use an item, it's locked in."

As far as allowing the unallowables back in goes, sure, whatever. Neither one of them is all that great imo without their special abilities anyway so if people want to use them because they're their faves then why not let them.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:20 PM   #50
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Yeah, I thought I wrote something about an item clause. My current feeling is that you're free to repeat any non-Choice item (one of each of those) but I suppose the only other thing you'll likely repeat is Leftovers.
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