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Old 02-23-2011, 09:37 AM   #1
Mercutio
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Pikachu Boost levels

I've been thinking about how I ref boosts, and I think I may be reffing them at a lower level than they should be. Tell me what you think of these please.

Meditate/Calm Mind/Agility: 10% boost, unless used to clear status. Calm Mind only 5% boost to non STAB moves.

Charge Beam: 10% boost.

Wish: 10% Boost, energy regain of one half Hyper Beam

Bulk Up: 10% boost, 10% drop in Speed.

Curse: 20% boost, 20% drop in Speed.

Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Nasty Plot/Tail Glow: 50% boost.

Belly Drum: 100% boost to physical attack, 50% boost to Special.

Ancient Power: 10% boost.

Stronger it is, longer it takes to fade, up to about six or seven rounds.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:42 AM   #2
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Looks a little on the low side to me, but that might just be me being retarded. Again.

All 'one-stage' boosts (Calm Mind, Bulk Up, Meditate, Charge Beam, etc) except Curse: 20%

Curse: 33% (says so in the attackscript)

'Two-stage' boosts (Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Tail Glow, Iron Defence): 50%

Belly Drum: Physical 75% damage, 100% energy. Special: 25% damage, 50% energy (due to inefficency)

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Old 02-23-2011, 09:44 AM   #3
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/Should read Curse attack description.
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:06 AM   #4
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...eh, mine may be flawed, but this is what i do, on my scale anyway.

+1 Stage boosters- Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Howl, ect- 10% boost to attacks
+2 boosts (Agility, Nasty PLot, Swords Dance, ect- 20%
Curse is like 20% for attack, 10% defense, -15% to speed
Wish gives about half a HB of energy back/10% def boost.
Charge Beam gives 10% per boost.
Belly Drum = doubles attack power, Sp.Atk...about 50% boost? energy doubles for both though
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Old 02-23-2011, 11:16 AM   #5
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Belly Drum boosts special moves? 0_o

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Old 02-23-2011, 05:08 PM   #6
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Boost shouldn't be terribly high. I personally don't have an established average for mine, but I'd say 15%~ for a single stage boost is definitely reasonable.

Just be aware of diminishing returns and increased energy use and I really don't care what you do as long as it's not extreme.
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:36 AM   #7
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So I was thinking about boosts and debuffs and how we don't do them at all. I kind of sort of did rewrite some of these when I was an LO but it was a hatchet job that no-one really cared about - and it should be redone.

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I was particularly thinking about defence, which came to mind as I was thinking about the different kinds of sigs I like to write and comparing fighty stuff like my Salamence with stally stuff like my proposed Umbreon or Butterfree sigs. We don't really do defence moves very well. Harden and Iron Defense are kind of a truism at this stage given how silly their descriptions are but Emi recently remarked to me that the cubic screens are the only defensive buffs worth using.

... why don't we just reframe all defence altering moves - instead of saying "a 10% boost to defence" we could just say "attacks deal 10% less damage". It seems like a non change but I think it makes everything just click a little bit more smoothly in the ref's mind. So much of ASB is not so much grounded in what a Pokémon is but in what ammo it carries. This change would probably be beneficial for offensive boosts as well but I think that's less of an issue given ASB's hyper offensive mindset much of the time.

So for example:

Quote:
Harden (NO) -- The user's exterior glows, making its shell/exoskeleton harder. This increases physical defense, with multiple uses giving less of a boost each time. The boost is both short term (very high, indeed) and long term (fair increase in defense), both using good energy.
becomes
Quote:
Harden (NO) -- The user glows, making its shell/exoskeleton harder. This increases physical defense, causing physical strikes against it to deal 10% less damage. The user will be slightly less nimble while this boost is active. Harden uses light energy.
Personally, I cannot think of a situation where I would ever use old style Harden, but this isn't bad. You could obviously up the boost level, which might be needed, but I think the basic premsie is sound. Very low energy cost to make it more cost effective, you could up this if desired.

Quote:
Iron Defense (ST) -- Using good energy, the user performs an attack similar to Harden, except it's more powerful, lasts longer and lowers mobility much more. Of course, the attack uses more energy than Harden.
becomes
Quote:
Iron Defense (NO) -- The user glows, making its shell/exoskeleton harder. This sharply increases physical defense, causing physical strikes against it to deal 25% less damage. The user will be less nimble while this boost is active. Iron Defense uses moderate energy.
Note the removal of the contradictory energy levels - in general having attack descriptions refer to other attack descriptions is a bad idea anyway - and made it Normal not Steel as I personally feel all boosting moves should be universally accessible. One thing you could do to add value to the Steel type (and Pokémon which generally are good at this kind of thing) would be to say that they can do it for less energy or get a stronger boost etc.

Quote:
Curse (NO) -- If the user is not a Ghost type Pokémon, the user sacrifices speed for power. The user concentrates its energy into its muscles, usually by tightening them up, like flexing, using good energy. By tightening their muscles, they are able to deliver more power with their physical attacks as well as take more physical damage. However, thanks to this, they don't move as quickly. If the user does not have "muscles," they simply focus their energy into their attack and physical defense, which takes away from their speed. Attack and defense will increase by two stages, but the Pokémon will move more slowly and react a bit more slowly as well. Multiple curses can be used, but the effects will not be seen nearly as much. The attack wears off after several rounds, or if the user is lulled into a dazed, confused or sleeping state.
which I know we recently redid but for example becomes
Quote:
Curse (NO) -- If the user is not a Ghost type Pokémon, it concentrates moderate energy into delivering more power with physical attacks and resisting physical hits. It will deal 15% more damage with physical moves and take 15% less damage from such attacks, but will move 15% slower in return. If the user is lulled into a dazed, confused or sleeping state, this boost wears off.
A lot of this description is just pointless waffle so I scrapped it. You would contrast with Bulk Up at 10% and Swords Dance at 20-25% - I'm really not sure the stages idea works very well.

Quote:
Nasty Plot (NO) -- The user expends a decent amount of energy and channels wicked thoughts in order to sharply improve its special attack powers.
becomes
Quote:
Nasty Plot (NO) -- The user channels moderate energy and wicked thoughts to sharply improve its special attack. The user will deal 25% more damage with special moves, with a corresponding increase in general energy.
I forget whether we already said that boosts don't increase the amount of type energy used but you get the idea.
Quote:
Agility (NO) -- The user concentrates their energy into their mobility in one of two ways, either a quick burst of speed or a more long-term concentration on speed rather than power. Though the long-term version's energy depends on the situation, short-term tends to use good energy.
becomes
Quote:
Agility (NO) -- The user concentrates on their mobility in one of two ways. They can use a quick burst of speed to evade attacks. Alternatively, remaining in place, they can boost their Speed stat by 25% at the expense of getting tired more quickly. Agility uses moderate energy.
Agility has always been a pet peeve of mine but no-one agrees so I've left in the stupid two versions thing. Also, I don't think a parallel increase in energy is a good idea with this, because no-one refs speed properly in the ASB. With stuff like Nasty Plot, there should be a corresponding increase in energy cost, but LT Agility needs a bit of a boost.

Now, on debuffs, which I wrote super shitty versions of way back when:
Quote:
Metal Sound (ST) -- The user makes a loud ping noise, irritating the opponent and making it lose concentration. This has a good chance to interrupt the actions of Pokémon in the area as they move to cover their ears. Despite being less potent than Screech, Metal Sound's effects last for a little while longer after it has stopped, possibly causing a loud ringing in the foe's ears which can last a round and make reacting to threats more difficult. Metal Sound uses decent energy.
would probably be better if it was
Quote:
Metal Sound (ST) -- The user makes a loud ping noise. There are two versions, one which will interrupt the foe's actions and another which will lower their Special Defence and cause them to take 20% more damage from special attacks. Metal Sound uses moderate energy.
There is indirect animé evidence that Metal Sound lowers special defence. Let's just do it, but I think we should take the plunge and make this and Screech etc. one of the growing number of two version moves. Makes it less broken.
Quote:
Growl (XX) -- Using mild energy, the user growls loudly at the target, scaring it slightly and possibly interrupting its action. Growl also has a 30% chance to slightly lower the foe's physical attack stat for a few round. If there is some reason that the opponent wouldn't be scared (size difference, bio, etc.), Growl will fail.
would be much better as
Quote:
Growl (NO) -- Using mild energy, the user growls at the target and lowers its Attack stat, causing its physical attacks to deal 10% less damage. If there is some reason that the opponent wouldn't be scared (size difference, bio, etc.), Growl will fail.
And then we come to Tail Whip, which yes ok I forgot was just a mistranslation when I wrote the current version
Quote:
Tail Whip (XX) -- The user goes up to the target and whips them with an appendage, usually the tail, usually dealing only minor damage. The cute nature of this move disguises the fact that it has a 30% chance to slightly lower the foe's physical defense for a few rounds. Tail Whip uses moderate energy.
makes
Quote:
Tail Whip (NO) -- The user wags its tail cutely, lowering the target's Defence stat and causing them to take 10% more damage from physical moves. Tail Whip uses mild energy.


I agree with Emi on KS but you could always just lower the debuff or increase the energy cost the longer it's held. It would be sensible to specify it lasts only one move but if you did that you'd want that to be the only change.

Last edited by Mercutio; 06-27-2015 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:43 AM   #8
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See as much as I like how you did it I kinda think the buffs should be more noticeable. 10% isn't a lot and defensive play styles typically entertain dodging and avoiding damage entirely. Most people aren't going to want to sit in place for a measly 10% damage reduction from physical moves, I know I don't. I would probably suggest maybe 20% for Harden and 33% for Iron Defense? I dunno.
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:48 AM   #9
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See, I agree, but we then have to say to ourselves that we're ok with making defensive boosts more powerful than offensive ones because if you made Nasty Plot 50%, say, you would break everything. But a 50% Iron Defense, while OP, is not *that* bad.

I would be totally ok with that, we would just need to have that conversation first.
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:53 AM   #10
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Offensive sucks, defensive rulez. Conversation over.

See I think its silly to compare the two because they exist in dramatically different play styles (with the possible except of Curse). It's far more relevant to compare them to the myriad of quite frankly dumb dodging moves like Quick Attack or Short Term Agility or those damaging moves that moonlight as dodging moves like Bounce, Hi Jump Kick, and Magic!Rock Climb. The question isn't "Are these more powerful than offensive buffs?" but rather "Can we make damage reduction good enough that people will want to use this instead of just outright avoiding the damage?" The last question basically is "How much damage reduction makes these moves worth it?"
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:56 AM   #11
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Good point. I think that if you give offensive and speed/evasion moves the scale of 10-25% and defensive moves the scale of 20-33% you're on to a winner.

This is similar to conversations we had when I rewrote Double Team - what is the balance between stupid animé Pika-Swellow armies and the totally worthless bollocks we had at the time. Now Double Team is fairly usable (and in fact it is possible to conceive of situations where you should use it going first) and does see use infrequently. That's a good thing for the ASB.
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:57 AM   #12
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As much as I agree with certain things I think it has to be said we don't want to improve defensive buffing to an extent where offensive buffing becomes completely pointless. As it stands I don't think offensive buffing is really that widespread outside of Signatures, and most of them have buffing be the secondary effect. Now I know we need to put value into defensive play, but strangling offensive buffs out of usability in doing so is probably not the correct approach.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:00 AM   #13
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I think the scale would have to be ridiculous for that to happen. ASB is hyper offensive, so anything which increases your attacking prowess is comparatively more valuable. At the end of the day you can increase your defences by 100% but every good Pokémon is still going to come at you with Thunderbolt-and-up moves at least five times in three rounds. Refs don't always enforce light rounds properly, refs really don't do dodging or inaccuracy very well, it all just points to increasing the damage output. Even a small addition to offensive power just ratchets up that incentive.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:01 AM   #14
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The only really widespread defensive buffing move outside of signatures are the Cubic Screens (which have a vulnerability to Brick Break) and Iron Defense. Most Pokemon who have one don't have one of the other and from what I remember, Cosmic Power has an absolutely awful distribution. In contrast, there are many Pokemon with boosting moves like Swords Dance, several who have Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, and offensive SC buffs are more potent than defensive ones.

I get your point but I think we'll be fine.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:05 AM   #15
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I use Cosmic Power a fair amount with Starmie, it has the advantage of not increasing your energy cost at all once used and lets Starmie concentrate on doing what it does best and shooting the shit out of things.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:07 AM   #16
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That is true but it doesn't disprove my point that its bullocks in distribution. :p
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:10 AM   #17
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Yeah I think it is important to say that I don't disagree at all with what is being said, just felt it was important to throw that out there and make sure it was in some way considered.

If you want I can make an actual thread for this so we can stop clogging up the Mew thread.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:11 AM   #18
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So my thoughts on this are pretty much that defensive play is massively undervalued in the ASB and I would be okay making Defensive boosts be a more significant since as it stands most defensive options are worse than dodging or Protecting. ASB isn't necessarily hyper offensive due to the system, it's just that the current meta is much more about building your own momentum instead of tearing your foe's down.

I think in order to make basic defensive play more viable, we need to make it so that the overall bonus gained (i.e. the health saved by the defensive move reducing damage) is equivalent to the attack you could have used in its place. So, if you use a move that costs significant energy, it should protect you from (at least) significant damage on average (if not more). Obviously this is going to be kind of tricky since there's no telling how much damage you're going to suffer in the coming rounds, but we should probably draw some non-arbitrary line and make it so the defense boosts defend against a proportional amount during that time.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:15 AM   #19
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There is a boosts thread somewhere in this sub forum Connor just move it all to that.

On momentum, that's a good way of looking at it Jeri, something I'm trying to be better at as a battler is slowing the opponent down so I have something to do when my trademark momentum building fails.

Not sure how to make that second para work.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:18 AM   #20
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If we say in the 3 rounds a boost lasts, the foe gets off 5 Significant-level moves. If the boost costs significant energy, how much of a boost is needed so that the energy use is equivalent to the amount of damage prevented (i.e. significant damage)?

More easily put...

Significantx5 times what percent equals significant?

(the answer is 20)
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:19 AM   #21
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This one Kush?

Also I disagree with Jeri. Defensive moves should be somewhat efficient. There is more energy than health, making moves that deal with defensive play equivalent to offensive play is not very smart. But that's me.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:22 AM   #22
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No, I agree with you, Emi - I'm just trying to establish a base line.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:23 AM   #23
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oh ok.

I kinda feel that baseline is entirely unfeasible though. Significant energy for a 20% boost is a lot and quite frankly our offensives boosts don't follow this line of reasoning. :p

I kinda feel moderate-decent for 20% is the way to go although we should probably move this.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:29 AM   #24
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Ah, 2011, when there was no Mega Evolution and FRIENDS had been off the air less time than it was on.

Simpler times.
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Old 06-27-2015, 10:42 AM   #25
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All moved.

> I kinda feel that baseline is entirely unfeasible though. Significant energy for a 20% boost is a lot and quite frankly our offensives boosts don't follow this line of reasoning. :p

Yeah, the fact of the matter is you're not going to probably get absolutely everything out of a boost so it makes much more sense to halve the energy use and if your opponent is dumb enough to make it completely worth your while, that's on them.
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