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Old 11-02-2010, 03:04 PM   #1
DaveTheFishGuy
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Sharpedo Gen V

Right then.

As some have you may have seen in the 'For Future Reference' thread, various opinions have cropped up regarding the implementation of Generation V Pokémon and their attacks. It all started with an innocuous question about the (few) new moves Pokémon would get from Dream World. A few other 'mon get new, existing, moves in Black and White, such as Farfetch'd getting Brave Bird and Octillery getting Mud Shot. I think the conclusion was reached that, since these attacks are already written, these Pokémon would have immediate access to them upon the English-language release of the games.

Which, in turn, prompted another question: 'Why can't we implement new Pokémon and attacks as soon as we know the english names?'

This was answered fairly swiftly by Jeri, using this argument:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
Writing the movelist, really. SCs can come later and we usually need a good bit of anime before we can do them anyway. But if you don't have the moves, most of the new Pokemon are next to useless.
My interest was piqued by the last statement, that not having new moves would make new Pokémon near-useless. True, writing new descriptions for new (and even existing) attacks will take a while, and quite a few Pokémon from both the third and fourth Generations survived until a few months ago without Species Characteristics. These two points I'm not contesting.

But to say that Pokémon would be useless without the new attacks of this Generation? I'm not so sure.

As a note, I'm not picking at you, Jeri. Just that you raised an interesting point and I thought I should address it.

To further look into the matter, I did some digging through all (non-Legendary) Generation V Pokémon pages on Serebii (personal preference). This was so I could see what attacks they'd miss out, exactly, and if it would make a game breaking difference to their use in the PASBL.

I also took the liberty of including potential TL acquisitions, excepting Pokémon that don't evolve. In doing so, I realised that quite a few are rather silly, but that's for another thread.

The moves that the fully-evolved Pokémon introduced in Black and White would miss out on are:

Quote:
Jalorda - TL4 - Grass Mixer, Coil, Sing A Round, Dragon Tail, Grass Oath - 5
Enbuoh - TL4 - Nitro Charge, Heat Stamp, Knock Down, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Boiling Water, Incinerate, Level Ground, Cheer Up, Wild Bolt, Heavy Bomber, Fire Oath - 13
Daikenki - TL4 - Shell Blade, Vengeance, Sing A Round, Boiling Water, Dragon Tail, Water Oath - 6
Miruhog - TL2 - You First, Sing A Round, Vengeance, Cheer Up - 4
Muurando - TL4 - Cheer Up, Vengeance, Sing A Round, Wild Bolt, Bark Out - 5
Lepardas - TL2 - Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Bark Out, Trickery - 5
Yanakkie - TL3 - Claw Sharpen, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Acrobat, Cheer Up - 5
Baokkie - TL3 - Bursting Flame, Claw Sharpen, Nitro Charge, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Acrobat, Cheer Up - 8
Hiyakkie - TL3 - Boiling Water, Claw Sharpen, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Acrobat, Cheer Up - 6
Musharna - TL3 - Psycho Shock, Telekinesis, Sing A Round, Synchronise, Assist Power - 5
Kenhorou - TL4 - Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Cheer Up, Gift Pass - 4
Zeburaika - TL3 - Nitro Charge, Wild Bolt, Sing A Round, Volt Change - 4
Gigaiath - TL5 - Knock Down, Sing A Round, Level Ground, Body Purge, Heavy Bomber - 5
Kokoromori - TL3 - Heart Stamp, Psycho Shock, Sing A Round, Acrobat, Synchronise, Assist Power - 6
Doryuuzu - TL4 - Claw Sharpen, Drill Liner, Sing A Round, Level Ground - 4
Tabunne - TL? - Make Friends, Healing Beam, You First, Simple Beam, Psycho Shock, Telekinesis, Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Incinerate, Vengeance, Cheer Up, Wild Bolt, Gift Pass - 13
Roopushin - TL5 - Little By Little, Knock Down, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Vengeance, Level Ground, Cheer Up, Wide Guard - 8
Gamageroge - TL4 - Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Venom Shock, Sludge Wave, Level Ground - 5
Nageki - TL? - Mountain Storm, Overhead Throw, Wide Guard, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Vengeance, Level Ground, Cheer Up - 8
Dageki - TL? - Ankle Sweep, Vengeance, Fast Guard, Sing A Round, Level Ground, Cheer Up - 6
Hahakurimo - TL4 - Bug Opposition, Make Friends, Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round - 4
Pendoraa - TL3 - Venom Shock, Hard Roller, Sing A Round, Bug Opposition, Level Ground - 5
Erufuun - TL3 - Gale, Sing A Round, Cotton Guard - 3
Doredia - TL3 - Butterfly Dance, Sing A Round, Make Friends, You First - 4
Basurao - TL? - Little By Little, Submersion, Life Gamble, Sing A Round, Boiling Water - 5
Waruvial - TL4 - Trickery, Claw Sharpen, Knock Down, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Level Ground, Dragon Tail, Bark Out - 9
Hihidaruma - TL4 - Incinerate, Cheer Up, Knock Down, Nitro Charge, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Level Ground - 7
Marakacchi - TL? - Cotton Guard, You First, Sing A Round - 3
Iwaparesu - TL4 - Shell Break, Knock Down, Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round, Bug Opposition, Level Ground - 6
Zuruzukin - TL4 - Little By Little, Knock Down, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Vengeance, Dragon Tail, Cheer Up, Bark Out - 9
Shinpora - TL? - Synchronise, Psycho Shock, Telekinesis, Knock Down, Sing A Round, Assist Power - 6
Desukan - TL4 - Evil Eye, Power Share, Guard Share, Telekinesis, Sing A Round - 5
Abagoura - TL4 - Wide Guard, Knock Down, Shell Break, Sing A Round, Boiling Water, Level Ground - 6
Archeos - TL4 - Fast Guard, Acrobat, Claw Sharpen, Knock Down, Sing A Round, Level Ground, Dragon Tail - 7
Dasutodasu - TL4 - Acid Bomb, Clear Smog, Venom Shock, Knock Down, Sludge Wave, Sing A Round - 6
Zoroark - TL3 - Claw Sharpen, Trickery, Night Burst, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Vengeance, Bark Out - 8
Chillaccino - TL3 - Sweep Slap, Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Vengeance, Cheer Up, You First - 6
Gochiruzeru - TL5 - Psycho Shock, Telekinesis, Magic Room, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round - 5
Rankurusu - TL5 - Psycho Shock, Wonder Room, Telekinesis, Sing A Round - 4
Swanna - TL4 - Gale, Sing A Round, Boiling Water - 3
Baibanira - TL5 - Sing A Round, Ice Breath, Body Purge - 3
Mebukijika - TL4 - Wood Horn, Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Vengeance, Cheer Up, Wild Bolt - 6
Emonga - TL? - Electra Ball, Acrobat, Volt Change, Sing A Round, Wild Bolt - 5
Shubarugo - TL3 - Fast Guard, Sing A Round, Bug Opposition - 3
Morobareru - TL4 - Clear Smog, Power Rage, Venom Shock, Sing A Round - 4
Burungeru - TL4 - Evil Eye, Sludge Wave, Sing A Round, Boiling Water - 4
Mamanbou - TL? - Healing Beam, Submersion, Wide Guard, Sing A Round, Boiling Water - 5
Denchura - TL4 - Electra Net, Electra Ball, Sing A Round, Volt Change, Bug Opposition, Wild Bolt - 6
Nattorei - TL4 - Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round, Level Ground - 3
Gigigear - TL5 - Gear Saucer, Body Purge, Gear Change, Sing A Round, Volt Change - 5
Shibirudon - TL6 - Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round, Acrobat, Volt Change, Dragon Tail, Wild Bolt, Acid Bomb, Coil - 8
Oobemu - TL5 - Guard Share, Power Share, Synchronise, Wonder Room, Psycho Shock, Telekinesis, Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Side Change - 9
Shanddra - TL7(?) - Bursting Flame, Evil Eye, Telekinesis, Nitro Charge, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Clear Smog, Purgatory - 8
Ononokusu - TL5 - Double Chop, Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Level Ground, Dragon Tail - 6
Tsunbeaa - TL4 - Icicle Drop, Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Level Ground, Ice Breath - 6
Furiijio - TL? - Sing A Round, Acrobat, Ice Breath - 3
Agirudaa - TL3 - Acid Bomb, Bug Opposition, Life Gamble, Venom Shock, Sing A Round, Guard Share - 6
Maggyo - TL? - Sludge Wave, Sing A Round, Boiling Water, Level Ground - 4
Kojondo - TL5 - Wide Guard, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Acrobat, Vengeance, Cheer Up, Fast Guard - 7
Crimgan - TL? - Claw Sharpen, Little By Little, Dragon Tail, Knock Down, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Vengeance, Level Ground, Bark Out - 9
Goruugu - TL5 - Heavy Bomber, Telekinesis, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Level Ground - 5
Kirikizan - TL6 - Claw Sharpen, Ankle Sweep, Sing A Round, Vengeance, Bark Out - 5
Baffuron - TL? - Afro Break, Sing A Round, Vengeance, Level Ground, Cheer Up, Wild Bolt - 6
Wargle - TL6 - Claw Sharpen, Free Fall, Sing A Round, Vengeance, Cheer Up - 5
Barujiina - TL6 - Sing A Round, Incinerate, Vengeance, Bark Out - 4
Kuitaran - TL? - Incinerate, Bursting Flame, Purgatory, Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round - 5
Aianto - TL? - Make Friends, Claw Sharpen, Sing A Round, Vengeance, Bug Opposition - 5
Zazandora - TL7(?) - Cheer Up, Sing A Round, Echo Voice, Incinerate, Acrobat, Level Ground, Dragon Tail - 7
Ulgamoth - TL6 - Butterfly Dance, Power Rage, Gale, Fire Dance, Nitro Charge, Sing A Round, Incinerate, Acrobat, Bug Opposition, Wild Bolt - 10
Names of moves and Pokémon are from Serebii, as I know other sites have different translations.

As can be seen, the Pokémon that would come off the worst from not being able to use Gen V moves are Enbuoh and Tabunne, both missing out on 13 attacks. It has to be said that this is a paltry amount of moves compared to the rest of their movesets.

On average, most Pokémon miss out on around 5-7 moves, which again, compared to the rest of their attacks, is barely anything. True, there are the few Pokémon that have limited movesets, but there are in any Generation, and these few only miss out around 3 BW attacks in any case.

EDIT: Have just run it though a calculator, and the average of moves missed out is 5.79.

tl;dr:
If we were to implement Generation V Pokémon when the games come out in english in the spring, I honestly believe that the rest of their movesets could sustain them more than adequately until Attack Descriptions of the new moves are written, and new Species Characteristics are written.

I know I'm only a recent addition to the world of ASB, my first battle having started a year ago next week, but I figured if I had something to contribute, then why not try? I'm sure I've missed something, but I thought that there was no harm in bringing this to the League in general, especially to the LOs, attentions.

I think that's all I have to say for now. Feel free to discuss.

Dave.

Last edited by DaveTheFishGuy; 11-02-2010 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:02 PM   #2
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Very interesting and very much a valid exercise- I hope it can be seriously considered for most if not all Pokemon, rather than being cast aside as madness.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:10 PM   #3
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Don't hold your breath. But this isn't necessarily a bad idea since waiting 'til the English releases come pout is a fairly piss poor excuse for not releasing Gen V pokémon.

Not knowing move descriptions or species characteristics, even for the purposes of the flawed way in which we do these things, is a better reason for waiting, but calling the English release of games the cut off point is silly.

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Old 11-02-2010, 07:12 PM   #4
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It's not my call. I'm simply following protocol.

But you inadvertently raise a good point against yours - acquisition levels are potentially ridiculously high and we'll need some time to discuss the levels to balance them properly. A vast majority of these Pokemon are TL4 and over, and the few that aren't are mostly TL3. There are also two potential TL7 Pokemon that we have to deal with.

Releasing the Pokemon immediately after the English release... well, I'm not totally against that but I think its kind of silly to just add another 150 Pokemon (about 100 of which are practically clones of existing Pokemon) without anything to distinguish them from their existing counterparts. Again, not my call.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
But you inadvertently raise a good point against yours - acquisition levels are potentially ridiculously high and we'll need some time to discuss the levels to balance them properly. A vast majority of these Pokemon are TL4 and over, and the few that aren't are mostly TL3. There are also two potential TL7 Pokemon that we have to deal with.
Don't forget- he only listed final stages. While I agree that this gen has pokemon that evolve at crazy high levels, the first stages are really what people will be caring about. The people that will be caring about the higher stages are likely already a high enough level to have them.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:26 PM   #6
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I'm intending to write an article on Level acquisitions for PBN, which will discuss both existing and upcoming Levels.

But some of them are silly. For instance, Wargle and the vulture (which are apparantly counterparts like Tauros and Miltank), don't evolve from their base (chick) forms until Level 54.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:36 PM   #7
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I seriously don't get what the big rush is. I'd rather have thought-out and consistent move descriptions and species characteristics than a half-arsed attempt to throw all the new Pokemon into the game because PASBL is so outdated. I'm pretty sure this is the way PASBl has always handled new generations, I don't think there's an immediate problem considering english releases aren't until spring.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite View Post
I seriously don't get what the big rush is. I'd rather have thought-out and consistent move descriptions and species characteristics
The point of this is to show that we needn't wait to for the new Attack Descriptions to be written, which is likely to be the big stopping block. As I said before, Pokémon from almost every generation were lacking species characteristics until Jeri filled in the gaps a couple of months ago.

Quote:
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I don't think there's an immediate problem considering english releases aren't until spring.
Again, this is to try to see if there's a chance of getting the Pokémon implemented when the games come out. I'm in no rush to have them right now - we don't even know their english names. The point is that we'd be waiting until this time next year (if Gen IV was any guide), to have both Pokémon and moves, whereas I'm more than happy to have the 'mon first and the new moves later.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:09 PM   #9
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I must have misunderstood xd Anyway I think it would be a bad idea to release half of gen V on english release and the other half when the mods feel like it. I'd rather keep playing Gen IV PASBl.

Also, we already have unofficial translations of move names and descriptions as well as battle animations. Move descriptions could easily be drafted between now and spring - I doubt translations will make any difference. The BW anime has started airing as well, so there's nothing stopping species characteristics being drafted by the moddies either.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:13 PM   #10
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>I doubt translations will make any difference.

You'd be surprised. Some moves translate much much differently and make what the move is make much more sense. See: Confusion.

>SCs

Even if the anime has started airing, it will take like 2 years to get everyone up, and most will show without anything interesting. We use 'dex entries to fill in gaps the best we can. I want to wait until official translation of 'dex entries before I write them.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:19 PM   #11
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Aye, that's why I wasn't pushing for new SCs and moves straight away.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:20 PM   #12
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Quote:
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I'd rather have thought-out and consistent move descriptions
...Wait, what?

But seriously, I'm of the opinion it might not matter a ton because of the sheer lack of movepool, thanks to B/W overhauling the TM system and removing a good number of Gen3/4 fundamentals (Synchronise TM, wtf?). I can imagine most of B/W only becoming significantly useful when Pokemon Grey inevitably comes along that features Kyurem's inaccessible signature moves.

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We use 'dex entries to fill in gaps the best we can
'Dex entries, Jeri? How could you?

But I'm also hoping for a look at past generations and their levels. Level 5 Glalie is silly, but when Glalie <<<<<<< Froslass, having Level 3 Froslass in comparison is nigh ridiculous.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:34 PM   #13
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Gonna interrupt here for a bit and say that the Japanese dex entries (which I had never bothered reading prior to BW's release) are boss. Everything has to be so tempered down for American release. =/
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Old 11-03-2010, 10:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
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>I doubt translations will make any difference.

You'd be surprised. Some moves translate much much differently and make what the move is make much more sense. See: Confusion.

>SCs

Even if the anime has started airing, it will take like 2 years to get everyone up, and most will show without anything interesting. We use 'dex entries to fill in gaps the best we can. I want to wait until official translation of 'dex entries before I write them.
Ah, I see, there is method
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Old 11-03-2010, 10:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
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You'd be surprised. Some moves translate much much differently and make what the move is make much more sense. See: Confusion.
I'd say the name confusion is misleading if anything, since in the anime it's just shown as a variant, perhaps weaker version, of Psychic. See: Metronome as another example in where the english translation is misleading. And just for the record, I'm not interested in having all the new Pokemon and Moves on the date of release, I just think it's a ridiculous suggestion to have one without the other.
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Old 11-03-2010, 01:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite View Post
Move descriptions could easily be drafted between now and spring
...Finally. Someone agrees with me. *Music plays*

Quote:
You'd be surprised. Some moves translate much much differently and make what the move is make much more sense. See: Razor Wind.
Fixed. If it wasn't for the weirdness of translations, Razor Wind would likely be a Psychic move in the PASBL (It's Japanese name means 'to cut something without touching it').
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:42 AM   #17
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Why are you all in such a rush for all this anyway?

The longer we keep Gen V away, the better.
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Old 11-05-2010, 11:14 AM   #18
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Why are you all in such a rush for all this anyway?

The longer we keep Gen V away, the better.
Not everyone agrees with you about that.

And they aren't in a rush for it- they're just saying we should be able to use the new pokemon as soon as the games come out in english, when normally if takes about half a years after the games come out in english to be able to use the new pokemon.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:15 PM   #19
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Totally forgot about something.

In regard to Jeri's post about the translated names- those really don't matter that much. Remember, this is the AnimeSBL (Unless we've officially become the MSBL). The Anime is written in Japan. The writers are Japanese. Thus, they use the Japanese names when thinking of how moves work.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:17 PM   #20
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Then using your logic, since we are the ASB, we should wait for the Anime to come out.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:31 PM   #21
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Then using your logic, since we are the ASB, we should wait for the Anime to come out.
Not really what I'm saying. I don't see anything wrong with coming up with the desc for moves not shown (Read: some moves are never shown), but I'm saying that the Japanese names for the moves should be looked at rather than the English names, as those are the names the writers will be using.

Kind of a "Think like they think" approach.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:32 PM   #22
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Ah, I see. Jeri may be able to translate then. All up to the LO's work ethic.
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:07 PM   #23
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Another reason I don't really want to rely on translated names is because people translate them extremely different ways. Veekun's translations alone are wildly different from Serebii's or Bulbagarden's, so there could very easily be discrepancies and confusion.
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