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Old 01-01-2015, 04:44 PM   #251
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Old 01-01-2015, 04:56 PM   #252
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I would like to see physical attacks that glow deal at least 75% damage to ethereal. A 50% cut is something too steep. There is no reason why one type alone should gain such an awkward distribution of defenses where they can safeguard against over 50% of the attacks that they are weak against. If the pokemon goes ethereal, you leave pokemon with Dark Pulse, Night Daze, Snarl, Beat up (??), Ominous Wind, Night Shade, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, and Hex.

8/~27 possible attacks hit under all circumstances for full damage. That is the smallest distribution of attacks that could hit a pokemon for full damage which hardly seems balanced. With ghost also gaining neutrality to steel is also a great boon because they are now only resisted by Bug and Poison. The former is not that great offensively and the latter is handled fairly well as most ghost boast nice access to psychic moves.

Edit: This is a bigger threat because most dark typed Pokemon only have access to either Dark Pulse or Snarl at any given time. If the dark typed pokemon can only use Dark Pulse, Imprison would leave them unable to harm ghost with Super Effective moves for the remainder of the match.

Edit: Can ghost get a revision to how they are trapped via mean look and mean look-like sigs? Gen VI gives them a full immunity against being trapped. That could translate to either being unable to be trapped or limiting mean look to work for three-five turns specifically against ghost typed Pokemon.

Last edited by Aposteriori; 01-01-2015 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:13 PM   #253
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I still think that Honedge's and Doublade's SC are hilariously underpowered for the Pokemon. 10% less damage at the cost of their mobility and the majority of their working movepool doesn't trade off, especially when you compare it to Pokemon like Spiritomb.

Does Spiritomb's Curse resistance stack with the Ghost SC? I imagine it should

Also why is Shedinja the only permanently solid-bound Ghost, when its one of the weaker ones? I like how pretty much every other Ghost has access to the states but Shedinja isn't great.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:22 PM   #254
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Edit: This is a bigger threat because most dark typed Pokemon only have access to either Dark Pulse or Snarl at any given time. If the dark typed pokemon can only use Dark Pulse, Imprison would leave them unable to harm ghost with Super Effective moves for the remainder of the match.
... Your point? Like... I cannot fathom just how ridiculous this "argument" is. Oh woe is me, a type advantage can be subverted, thus encouraging players to use tactics other than simple typespam! HOW HORRENDOUS
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:28 PM   #255
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... Your point? Like... I cannot fathom just how ridiculous this "argument" is. Oh woe is me, a type advantage can be subverted, thus encouraging players to use tactics other than simple typespam! HOW HORRENDOUS
I fail to see how you countered my point. Woe is for everyone facing a ghost. All other types do not simply mitigate their weakness via an inconsistent attempt to make ghost more "realistic" which is truly an oxymoron. It is a face off between two pokemon and it shouldn't be buffed to the point that the odds of taking down their weakness just increases substantially not by skill but mechanic alone.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:38 PM   #256
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The majority of Ghosts are bad or middling, and are very beatable.

Take this into consideration before you advocate a type-wide nerf.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:38 PM   #257
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I see your point but you're not arguing it too well. A Pokémon being able to circumvent a weakness against a type it's generally boned against is a really poor justification for a mechanics change.

Also, I probably should, sure, and eh in that order, Blaze.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:39 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Aposteriori View Post
I fail to see how you countered my point. Woe is for everyone facing a ghost. All other types do not simply mitigate their weakness via an inconsistent attempt to make ghost more "realistic" which is truly an oxymoron. It is a face off between two pokemon and it shouldn't be buffed to the point that the odds of taking down their weakness just increases substantially not by skill but mechanic alone.


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Old 01-01-2015, 05:48 PM   #259
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Your argument is really more that Dark has a shallow pool of offensive options and that the very niche move of Imprison is quite good when it is able to be used properly.

Neither of these facts make the ethereal state broken.
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Old 01-01-2015, 05:59 PM   #260
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I see your point but you're not arguing it too well. A Pokémon being able to circumvent a weakness against a type it's generally boned against is a really poor justification for a mechanics change.

Also, I probably should, sure, and eh in that order, Blaze.
The type is getting boosted for the ones trailing behind, but people still pick the better ones; Dusknoir, Gengar, and Mismagius as their first pick purely for their ghost typing and their large arsenal.Sableye follows closely behind that trio as an excellent pick because of its dual typing and you can justifiably get it to do a great job with it with little effort. Few people choose Cofagrigus, Shedinja, or to an extent the litwick line. Banette simply has ASB popularity but it is still fairly average.

Ethereal is not broken as a standalone idea. It is just more versatile in practice than in the spirit of pokemon battling. The more complex solution is to arbitrarily attach a clause to the top tier ghost pokemon, allowing them to be affected by 75% damage which would not be terribly too far-fetched for the sake of balance.
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Old 01-01-2015, 06:07 PM   #261
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I'd be all for nerfing Dusknoir, Gengar, and Mismagius explicitly only so we can stop looking at a type through its outliers. With those three nerfed, there really isn't an issue with the ethereal typing because the three Pokemon who abuse it to hell and back can't do it as well.
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Old 01-01-2015, 06:19 PM   #262
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I'd be all for nerfing Dusknoir, Gengar, and Mismagius explicitly only so we can stop looking at a type through its outliers. With those three nerfed, there really isn't an issue with the ethereal typing because the three Pokemon who abuse it to hell and back can't do it as well.
Sadly, its outliers define the type because people gravitate toward them and abuse them fairly well. An increase in TL for Gengar and possibly Mismagius would not be a bad idea either. That would put Gengar on par with Dragonite and Mismagius on par with Dusknoir. Dragonite is mentioned purely out of its versatility which easily outshines its 4x weakness which Gengar can do with all of his 2x Weakness bar Psychic spam.
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Old 01-01-2015, 07:52 PM   #263
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Right so I'm going to tear apart everything Jeri just posted bit by bit but first...

DT, with ORAS right around the corner there's sure to be changes in Level Acquisitions. Gengar was supposed to be TL6 but was never changed in the first place, so. As for Dusknoir and Mismagius, they're floaters and if you can't figure out a strategy that completely bones them based of those two words you really need to reconsider how much you attempt to argue in the League because most of what you say will be thrown out the window.
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Old 01-01-2015, 08:51 PM   #264
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Right so I'm going to tear apart everything Jeri just posted bit by bit but first...

DT, with ORAS right around the corner there's sure to be changes in Level Acquisitions. Gengar was supposed to be TL6 but was never changed in the first place, so. As for Dusknoir and Mismagius, they're floaters and if you can't figure out a strategy that completely bones them based of those two words you really need to reconsider how much you attempt to argue in the League because most of what you say will be thrown out the window.
I think that being floaters is plus given the new Gravity rewrite allows for them to not be sitting ducks. Side way dodges under trick room for dusknoir should not be too shabby, and ghost dig shouldn't be hard to archive one foot off the ground. In fairness, I'm more concerned with the Dusknoir/Gengar/Mismagius becoming too overpowered with their unique ghost properties. I'm not really into arbitrary rules that only affect the three of them, but at this point of the discussion it seems to be the best solution.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:02 PM   #265
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Look, not all Pokemon were created equal. Some Pokemon will always be better than others since that's just how the cards were dealt. We're not going around specifically trying to apply nerfs to every TL6 Pokemon because they're all TL6 for a reason. The new level acquisitions are coming with ORAS, and chances are some of, if not all of, the Pokemon you mentioned will receive a bump up. But really, this isn't the thread to discuss nerfing strong Pokemon. That's for the LO's to discuss if they decide a Pokemon is too strong and need a nerf in their SC. Let's not derail this thread with attempting to apply nerfs to an entire type in attempts to fix a select few Pokemon, like was done with Normals in the past. I'm fairly sure we'd like to avoid adding in another type wide nerf like that.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:39 PM   #266
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Since the clause that states ghost can no longer be poisoned, can we pass on the inorganic clause to the litwick line? It could be argued for Drifloon/Drifblim but that is pushing it.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:43 PM   #267
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As far as I can tell, Litwick and such aren't inorganic? I know I'm blind at times.

Besides, being inorganic is somewhat better than being poison-proof. Pretty sure it protects against Spores and such.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:44 PM   #268
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As far as I can tell, Litwick and such aren't inorganic? I know I'm blind at times.

Besides, being inorganic is somewhat better than being poison-proof. Pretty sure it protects against Spores and such.
I'm saying that they should be inorganic as they are based off candles and non animated objects much like honedge is an inorganic sword.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:46 PM   #269
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As far as I can tell, Litwick and such aren't inorganic? I know I'm blind at times.

Besides, being inorganic is somewhat better than being poison-proof. Pretty sure it protects against Spores and such.
Litwick is a candle. I thought it would be ruled as inorganic. Also to bring up DT's point, I'd argue for Drifloon/blim being inorganic because they are a balloon and a blimp, respectively.

I have never heard of inorganic meaning immune to "Spores and such" though. Might be because of my inactive spell but that seems like crack to me if it that's an actual rule now.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:51 PM   #270
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Inorganic - Pokémon which are inorganic do not need to breathe, eat or drink in order to survive. They can therefore travel freely underwater and in other mediums where respiration might be hindered. They cannot be poisoned and will not be affected by spores or gasses.
No poisoning, which applies to all but three ghosts.

No breathing, meaning can freely be underwater, which I think we ruled as fine for all ghosts (except Sableye?).

Immunity to spores/gases. I think this is where we drew the line between ghostly non-organic and other inorganics.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:51 PM   #271
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oh, i'm okay with both of those changes then. Golurk line too.

As far as I can remember inorganics were immune to spores because of not having to breathe. Granted this was overturned for Ghosts who aren't explicitly inorganic.
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Old 01-01-2015, 09:59 PM   #272
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honedge and golett lines are stated to be inorganic unlike the others. I could make the possessed doll argument for the Shuppet line as well.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:04 PM   #273
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Kin you are supposed to one who misses the first sentences, not me!
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:44 PM   #274
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In full agreement with Litwick and Drifloon lines being full inorganic because a candle and a balloon are both very much inorganic the same way a sword and robot are. And argument could also be made for the Shuppet line and Cofagrigus as well.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:38 PM   #275
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I see your point but you're not arguing it too well. A Pokémon being able to circumvent a weakness against a type it's generally boned against is a really poor justification for a mechanics change.

Also, I probably should, sure, and eh in that order, Blaze.
Cool, cool, and

Remind me again why Shedinja is perma-solid when every other Ghost can at least go ethereal for a few seconds? Not trying to be bitchy...but I don't see why Shedinja is a special case.
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