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Old 05-28-2009, 12:44 AM   #51
Jerichi
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The sheer fact that SE Hyper Beam-esque moves on a x2 Pokemon chop off half their health is the reason why I don't adjust for this kind of stuff. You shouldn't be able to get off two Shadow Balls and get an auto-KO.

Personally, I think way too much emphasis is placed on typespamming in this league even if I'm a major proprietor of it. I think it's perfectly fair those being typespammed that they're given a chance to make a comeback.

I've been reffing for like 3 or 4 years now and I've found my system is far more fair than the original system I used. It gives everyone a chance and keeps battles a moderate length.

I'm curious about what has everyone so up in arms about lowering the SE/resistance rate universally. I'd be affected by it the most and I'm like the only one on the other side of the argument.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:47 AM   #52
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I sure hope I_D never refs anything like Manectric vs Clefable. How would he be able to cope with the fact that the only attack either has that's super effective against the other is Mud-Slap!

P.S. That statment also works if you remove the word like and everything following it.
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:52 AM   #53
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OH Zora, I love you too. Oh and the only reason we're all up in arms about it is because the newcomer Balmund made a comment about it.....
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:21 AM   #54
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Reducing the weakness multipliers universally doesn't necessarily make for a comeback. It simply means health is demolished at a reduced rate -- but since the supposedly disadvantaged Pokemon is likewise subject to the same reduced modifiers, you're not making it better or worse since Quagsire's Ice Beam will still damage Venusaur at the same relative rate. Effectively you're making it slower if anything.

Dimming x4 to x3 while x2 stays as is isn't too logical either, this time on a mathematical level. It's like saying somehow, Water and Flying only become x1.5 weak to Electricity when combined with each other, instead of x2 when individualised.
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Old 05-28-2009, 08:39 AM   #55
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I have to say, for once, that I actually agree with Shadow and the point he just made. If someone is losing with a x4 weakness, then changing it to x3 is not going to ensure a comeback and instead it'll just mean they'll be typespammed into defeat at a slower rate. If somebody is losing with a x4 typespam all changing it to x3 will do is give them a little bit more time and that will only do them good if they are a good enough trainer to create a strategy that will give them a decent comeback. But if they were a good enough trainer to make a good comeback they could have done it with the super effective damage at x4.

So really changing it to x3 does nothing, in my opinion people who want it changed seem to be mostly people who are either too lazy to find a way to overcome it or simply cannot create an efficient enough strategy to overcome it. I have yet to find a genuine enough argument to show why it should be changed to x3. And this is coming from the Bug Leader who is like typespammed all the damn time (though not always with a x4 weakness of course). Though there are some Pokémon who cannot overcome their x4 weaknesses, which is fair enough, but if they have no way of overcoming it when it was x4 then changing it to x3 will not help them like at all.

Thats just my opinion though, I should really be revising for exams/getting ready to go out later but I just decided to pop in and I saw this discussion so I decided to add to it a little bit. I probably won't be battling again for a while, I mean still have exams on, but I just wanted to get my opinion out.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:06 AM   #56
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The two efforts put in by our colleagues here are right on the mark. There is now real reason to change the system because its seems unfair to have a 4x weakness and the pogeys who have them (even if they are powerhouses) wont be used as much.

It would be messing far too much with the Pokemon system... I mean, as we come from an anime background, we have adapted it enough for it to work successfully, including changing some moves so that they aren't misused, but changing the actual damage system, in my opinion, is just going too far.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:08 AM   #57
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Qball: Wouldn't a FC Focus Punch OHKO a Shieldon?
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:41 AM   #58
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>The two efforts put in by our colleagues here are right on the mark. There is now real reason to change the system because its seems unfair to have a 4x weakness and the pogeys who have them (even if they are powerhouses) wont be used as much.

My reason to change the system is to give everyone more of a fair chance, whether you're at a x2 or x4 disadvantage.

I know all of us at least at some point have been subject to typespam, and it's not fun. By reducing the SE, you're given enough of a chance to make a comeback so two Shadow Balls don't KO you right off the bat.

Personally, I don't really care about x4. The ones I have I use carefully and the ones that I want to use more broadly have sigs to eliminate that x4 or at least make it more manageable.

I like to think of my system as more of a damage cap than a reduction. With x2/x4, Pokemon can do massive damage and chop off huge portions of health with little or no proportional repercussions. With x1.5/x3, things are at least in decent proportion while still being manageable and effective.

Let me give you a real situation and not just some impractical theoreticals.

Me vs. Jami', second battle, first matchup.

I have a Turtwig, he has a Shinx.

I effectively have no SE attacks, he has about... 6, most of which dipping from different type pools.

As it stood, his volley of SE attacks left me practically no room for counter, as I was always in fear of him chopping off a good eight of my health with each attack, making it so I would have to constantly defend in hopes of making even the slightest comeback.

If SE was x1.5 (and I checked with MC that he ran x2), I would have at least been granted enough opportunity to hit him back with something instead of cowering in fear constantly because my health was dropping rapidly.

Oh, also, there are plenty of situations where the typespam doesn't come from STAB, and that changes things entirely.

I.E. Gible vs. any Water Pokemon. Gible has no way to defend himself properly, while the Water 'mon can get off enough Blizzards for a quick and easy KO.

I would much more fear using a Flygon against a Normal type who can get off one free Blizzard to take out most of my health and leave me hanging, where a Glaceon can get off a billion, but I can at least strike back with a few Flamethrowers and that'll be the end of that.

Frankly, I don't see the change as unreasonable. I think that half of the argument is that people are going "bawwwwww I cant ko my foe with three blizzards/two shadow balls/a focus punch im gonna have to get skilled or be found out for what i really am". I can guarantee that none of you will admit that, but I'm sure there's at least one of you in this thread who is guilty of it.

Also, claims of a universal adjustment bringing unbalance is dumb. I've reffed hundreds of rounds this way and I see match ups bringing far more balance when they can't blast each other around with SE attacks and essentially get buy-one-get-one/three-free on every attack they fire.

As for the "those who want it reduced don't want to deal with the disadvantage", with x1.5 and x3, SE is still as much of a bitch and still requires strategy to work around, and if you don't play your cards right, you'll still be down in two Shadow Balls + a mid charge one. It's not that drastic a reduction that typespamming becomes totally ineffective. It's just enough of a reduction that it prevents people from winning from a type advantage every single time.

We're not a metagame. Our battles are structured far differently from those of the games, and since the anime provides no help or guidance on terms of weakness and resistance (hell, Ash's Sceptile fainted a Tropius with only Grass Attacks; if anything the anime is retarded and should be ignored on these terms), we should be free to change the rules in hopes of a balanced game. After all, doesn't a leveled playing field really the most reliable arena in which to prove skill?

None of this would be a problem if people learned to make good Pokemon selections, but hey, not everyone can be good at ASB.

> OH Zora, I love you too. Oh and the only reason we're all up in arms about it is because the newcomer Balmund made a comment about it.....

That's not what I was getting at. :x
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:52 AM   #59
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Graveler

For those who said tl;dr, I read it for you.

In summary: Stop bitching that you can't KO your foe in a Focus Punch and x1.5/x3 gives the person who is being pwned a chance to attack rather than defend every round.

Also, I agree with the above summary.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:00 AM   #60
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So that 0.5 would have made a massive difference? He would have had to typespam for slightly longer but the end result would still have been the same.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:23 AM   #61
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the end result is not the point Jeri is talking about. He is talking of surviving more rounds to inflict more damage on the other side.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:32 AM   #62
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:37 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qball View Post
Final count: 7

Hooray, 5 Bug types, Magcargo, and the Magnezone line, with a few others if you so choose, exactly as I said. And all of those have potential with some decent sigs.

Seriously, if you have an issue with massive damage being done to your Pokemon through super effective damage, give them a sig to tone it down, or give them a sig to counter it or something. It's not difficult.
My take on this thread is that Q isn't very good at saying which 4x pokemon are good and which ones are not.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:45 AM   #64
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XFD?
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:47 AM   #65
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Mine didn't work though ;_;
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:21 PM   #66
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See, it's this simple- 4x weak sucks, yes- but save for massive Attack/Sp. Attack boosting, a 4x SE STAB Attack cannot OHKO. I mean, it's possible to win, difficult but possible. As other examples have said, it is possible to win.. if not pissing off your opponet.

Example:

Did that piss me off. Yes
could it have been prevented. Yes.
could I have won that battle... er more than likely, no.

The point is that regardless of 4x weak or whatever the case any trainer should be able to put up a decent fight. THe only time it sucks to have a 4x weak is if your opponet gets 2 or 3 Nasty Plots or Calm Minds or something, and even then Bide on superpowered SE Attacks (I mean Bider is hit with attack that attacker is weak to) > 4x weak anyway

so I don't think we need to decrease the damage. many 4x weak pokes survive regardless, you just have to be careful.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:10 PM   #67
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http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthread.php?t=1445

I found you another one.
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:03 PM   #68
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Quote:
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a 4x SE STAB Attack cannot OHKO.
Yes it can.

If Pokemon have 3 hyper beams of health and a solarbeam is equivilent to one hyperbeam, mathmatically, one solarbeam should KO a Quagsire.


My second argument is; while one can't. Three can.
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:45 PM   #69
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Just FYI, Treep, a lot of people, particularly those arguing in this thread, ref health as 4 Hyper Beams.

Also Solar Beam =/= Hyper Beam.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:06 PM   #70
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Quote:
Also Solar Beam =/= Hyper Beam.
Not what I was told
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:12 PM   #71
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Also, there are no OHKO moves in ASB.
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:32 PM   #72
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I think the 4X weakness issue is but a small aspect of the much larger issue of weaknesses - if Pokemon have them, why not exclusively use advantage type attacks? Why use anything else?

When I did reffing years ago, I gave advantages to people who used seemingly worthless moves like Leer or Scratch. Something like, a Charmander scratches the eyes of a Raichu, blinding it and sending its Thunder off course.

I also gave slight disadvantages to advantage-type moves, especially in succession. The reasoning is the Pokemon isn't stupid and knows its own weaknesses - it would actively try to avoid getting hit by an attack it is weak against moreso than something less dangerous.

Someone walking on a street is more likely to care about oncoming cars than oncoming bikes.

So, unless someone did something stupid like used Bide against a Blizzard when they're a Dragon type, they'd never take full damage from an attack.

I feel this approach is better because it promotes the diversity of moves allowed by PASBL and encourages creativity by trainers and referees. There's nothing creative about using exclusively type-weakness attacks.
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:11 PM   #73
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I think the 4X weakness issue is but a small aspect of the much larger issue of weaknesses - if Pokemon have them, why not exclusively use advantage type attacks? Why use anything else?
Energy restrictions for off-type attacks. Next question?
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:20 PM   #74
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Also, there are no OHKO moves in ASB.
Wrong.
Attacking Shedinja.
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Old 05-28-2009, 07:58 PM   #75
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I see nothing of it in the Species Characteristics.
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