06-20-2013, 08:31 PM | #5176 | |
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However, now that you've finished the series, I can address something. "Genre Subversion"? What's that?: I feel like watching Puella Magi Madoka Magica without having watched a single magical girl anime before and being less than a year or two into the whole anime scene is akin to watching Fate/Zero before playing Fate/stay night. Long story short, Talon does not approve and gives you all of his scowls. ^^; But hey, you enjoyed it so w/e, I guess. *grumpy shrug* The thing about Madoka is, it's an almost exhaustive exercise in subverting the tropes of the magical girl genre. So by not being familiar with magical girl manga and/or anime, you really lose the forest for the trees. Sure, you can enjoy the plot that's present for what it is. As a stand-alone story. I get that. But the whole point with Madoka is ... Spoiler: show I recognize that you can appreciate all of these things even without the magical girl flashlight shone on them ... but I'm saying that that flashlight really does illuminate the picture and make it ten times more brilliant. It's a shame that you thus spoiled yourself on the series without the benefit of that light during your virginal viewing. You and so many others on UPN. Madoka movies: never watched the first two since, as you pointed out, they were reportedly nothing more than the TV series' episodes quite literally edited to fit into the shape of a film. You mention the new Madoka project that was announced earlier this year (or even last year? time flies, and too lazy to check), but from what I recall, the project sounded like a) a shameless spin-off that b) is shamelessly seeking more money from the same otaku who turned the first Madoka into an "IT PRINTS MONEY! XFD" money-making machine for Shaft. Whereas the original Madoka was interesting for all of the subversion of genre tropes that it did and for its great mysteries, this new property just seems like a shameless attempt to squeeze more milk from the cash cow's teats. Could be wrong, but if you were to tell me that the film were coming out tomorrow, I'm not even sure I could motivate myself to lift a finger to check it out. =\ I'm that not interested. Closing comments (... FOR NOW!): Glad you liked the series though. Sorry that none of us really engaged you. I had my reasons (as you can see ). I assume bbb and Doppel and Yuki all had theirs. If you'd like to find posts we made on the topic, pretty sure we all posted in this thread about it.
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06-20-2013, 08:42 PM | #5177 |
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I specifically had interest in Madoka for a few reasons, one of them being that I knew beforehand it wasn't your typical "magical girl" anime. I know enough about magical girl anime and have seen enough from them to know I... it's not my thing. I wouldn't really call it genre subversion if it was making an exception for a genre you had no previous interest in, but maybe that's just me. I knew it was more or less "magical girl with a dark twist" beforehand, and knowing Urobuchi was behind it made me want to give it a try all the more.
I'm not going to compare Madoka to other magical girl anime or even other anime in general. I'm going to judge it for what it is in terms of story and art, and that's why I felt it deserved a 10/10 from my own personal point of view. All of the points you listed are more or less precisely why I enjoyed it, I guess. In other news, Hataraku Maou-sama! 12 is out, and it's glorious. Will discuss in the thread later. How you doin'?
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06-20-2013, 08:45 PM | #5178 |
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Madoka's a great title, but it's actually lost a bit of shine in my mind's eye. What was strongest about the series was the mystery, the build-up and dignified reveals, and the ideas/themes that went into the series composition. Character-wise, it's just OK. It doesn't really do much for me anymore, unless one has a taste for horrifying little girls (which I do, but that's aside the point...).
Actually VGM, Madoka was my springboard into magical girl proper. I watched HCPC not long after and PreCure got integrated into my DNA, despite BBB's iron-clad belief that no one else on UPN would ever get interested in the series. Perhaps you should stop riding ponies, and start riding rainbows!
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06-20-2013, 08:53 PM | #5179 |
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06-20-2013, 08:54 PM | #5180 | |
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Nothing you've said changes what in my mind is the fact (if not it being an objective fact period ) that if you enjoyed PMMM this much (makes hand gesture), then you would have enjoyed it THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS much (makes grander hand gesture) had you watched a Nanoha or a Cardcaptor Sakura or a Pretty Cure first. And I'm not talking five or ten KidsWB dub job episodes. I'm talking the entire project cover to cover. I had seen Magic Knight Rayearth (with Mokona) and Cardcaptor Sakura (with Kero) before watching PMMM (with Kyubey). bbb had seen God knows how many magical girl shows before he watched Madoka. I feel like for us, the genre subversion was like extra rich chocolate icing on the cake. I feel like you think you ate an iced cake but what you really had was a cake devoid of any icing at all. A great cake, sure, but it could've been so much more with that icing. Also: What I've been struggling to say myself. ^_^; I really, really enjoyed it when I first watched it ... but I have next to no desire right now to go back and rewatch it. I have to make conscious decisions to hold myself back from rewatching a number of anime series I've loved, but with Madoka, I don't have the faintest desire to rewatch it right now, even though when I did watch it I really quite liked it. Especially the final three episodes. ("Homura is best PMMM girl", to use the lingo. ;p)
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06-20-2013, 08:59 PM | #5181 | |
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Guess I don't honestly believe the things I say and would rather just sound like a cool kid edit: I have seen Cardcaptor Sakura. I've seen a lot of Cardcaptor Sakura. It's good, but nothing incredible. But you know what I think it is that made you try to call me out as a "cool" kid? I know how you think. I bet you think "Man, Deoxys is probably just into this because suddenly EVERYONE ON UPN has PMMM av/sig sets," and that's exactly something you would say. And then you put a smiley at the end to make it look like you're being playful, but you're not. You're serious. You're just trying to throw a blanket on some of the personal disapproval you have. I don't appreciate it when you do that. I started watching it shortly after I finished Psycho Pass and it took several weeks to get through 4 episodes. Finally I was bored today and decided to continue it and it picked up big time and so I decided to just marathon it straight through. Halfway through when we met Kyoko I loved her and paused the episode to throw on a new av/sig set because she was great. It's completely coincidence. I'm not trying to start anything, but I really wish you would stop with assumptions. It really irritates me when you do that. Last edited by deoxys; 06-20-2013 at 09:09 PM. |
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06-20-2013, 09:09 PM | #5182 | |
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and ask yourself how that might be perceived as incredibly condescending and insulting towards your speaking partner. If you honestly can't see it, I'm telling you that it was an uncalled for attack on my sensibilities. And if you can see it, well then!
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06-20-2013, 09:11 PM | #5183 |
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I've been editing intermittently.
I meant what I said. You do this once every few weeks or so, I don't like it. You've made assumptions about me in the past publicly (I can't remember what it was right now) as well as other people and it looks demeaning and embarrassing. I wish you wouldn't. Sorry if it was a bit abrasive. |
06-20-2013, 09:19 PM | #5184 | |
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For you to interpret my statement as "I liked it for what it was" as a direct jab at you is shitty. Why would I do that? I was just stating a fact that I personally believe, I wasn't even saying it in response to you. I wasn't even thinking about your reply when I wrote that. What, do you think I sit here and go "Oh man, time to think up something clever to take Talon down a notch". That's some sort of fucked up I can't even fathom and have no idea why you'd interpret it that way. I said what I meant and I meant what I said. It's my opinion on the show and it's not meant to somehow be "holier than thou" or put my views on it above anyone elses. I can't even believe you interpreted it that way. Sorry if it offended you, that's not what that statement was meant to do. |
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06-20-2013, 09:19 PM | #5185 | |
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[/totally Edit- Guys let's just sit and enjoy some cake? =x Whether you like it frosted or not doesn't matter. Spoiler: show
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06-20-2013, 09:23 PM | #5186 |
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But I didn't subvert the genre! I've *seen* Cardcaptor Sakura. It's not my thing! I purposely watched Madoka because it was relevant to my interests being written by Urobuchi and having been looking for more of his work, I watched it. Can't help but feel like no matter how hard I try to discuss anime here or anything I'm always going to be "too casual" or far behind from everyone else that my arguments and opinions don't matter.
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06-20-2013, 09:41 PM | #5187 | ||||
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06-20-2013, 09:48 PM | #5188 |
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Cardcaptor Sakura (also VGM, you lie, you saw Cardcaptors) proper is a bit more saccharine/sterile than other magical girl titles. Yes, it's had a huge influence, but Toei's Sailor Moon likely eclipses CCS in impact, especially in regard to the PreCure titles.
Yeah, it's pretty horrifying when a character dies in Madoka...but only because one is conditioned to think that every magical girl world is like CCS, where nobody dies and the threats are not as severe as life/death. Outside of that mentality, and that universe, things become a whole lot less predictable. In my favourite of the PreCure series, heroes and villains alike die all manner of death: pathetic snuff-out, valiant last stands, regret-filled tragedies, bitter defiance, and tearful farewells. Given the context, the mere idea of death is way stronger than in Madoka. It's one thing when the butcher chops up his hogs. It's another when Hayao Miyazaki has Totoro euthanized at an animal shelter!
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06-20-2013, 09:49 PM | #5189 |
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BUT I WASN'T!
That WASN'T my intent and you are trying to find evidence to make it seem as though it was. Why can't you just accept my answer for what it is at face value? Why must you think I'm somehow lying to you? Sorry I'm bad at wording my sentences properly? I. Fuck. I can't. I don't want to fight with you. This is ridiculous. I'm not going to argue in public about this, no one needs to see this and it's derailing the thread. We can take this to a PM if you want, but I'm not going to argue any further in here. |
06-20-2013, 09:59 PM | #5190 | |||
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Madoka spoilers through Episode 10 Spoiler: show Quote:
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06-20-2013, 10:33 PM | #5191 | ||
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CCS was significant for doing it with elementary school kids, and the star of the show is basically the Biblical Eve who virgin birthed all of moe. I just mixed my Christian mythologies! Quote:
Having not seen CCS proper, only Cardcaptors, I don't know how in-love Tomoyo was for Sakura. Since they were prepubescents it's hard for me to take it seriously. Was it this strong? No, I think you took the analogy a tad too far. But characters die in PreCure, and the deaths hit me harder than the ones in Madoka. There was a ton more development, and a ton more (adult) human drama that went into it.
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06-20-2013, 10:56 PM | #5192 | ||
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Looking to TV Tropes (ugh ), I find that apparently Tomoyo's mother had a lesbian crush on Sakura's mother as well? I don't remember this (or feel like I barely remember it but can't be certain if I'm not making things up), but I guess it wouldn't surprise me. Sakura's mother, literally named Nadeshiko, is basically a Yamato Nadeshiko. Or was, I guess I should say.
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06-20-2013, 11:20 PM | #5193 |
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When I started Madoka, I got pretty excited around episode 3-6. Things were exciting, and the plot was developing pretty nicely. I didn't love it (an amazing comedy that season was stealing my love), but it was still nice. Fun fact though. I started Madoka at the beginning of the season thinking it would be comedy. When I thought SHAFT + magical girl, I instantly thought of Behoimi from Pani Poni Dash, and she was awesome.
After around episode 7, I started to get irritated with Madoka. I guess it's similar to Doppel's hatred for Clannad. It started becoming ridiculously popular, and people's obnoxious over-praise for Madoka really got on my nerves. I know I shouldn't let other irrational fans ruin my enjoyment for something, but when Madoka aired, it was really bad. If it's any consolation, I gave Madoka an 8, which is still fairly high. After becoming more familiar with magical girl shows, I probably would enjoy Madoka alot less than I did the first time. Character development is a huge thing in magical girl shows, and the development for any characters that isn't Homura is really weak in Madoka. Speaking of SHAFT magical girls, any news on that magical girl show SHAFT has been plugging for the past two years? I've seen promos for it, but no real news on when it's going to air. I mean, it looks like a generic moe-fest, but the fact that it has been in development for this long should mean something. |
06-21-2013, 05:13 PM | #5194 |
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Spoiler tags are all spoilery for all of Madoka.
After thinking about it and going back over it, I'm lowering my score from a 10/10 to a 9. I know it's not a huge difference but 10 is supposed to be pretty much close to perfect. The show definitely needed more character development, especially for Homura and Madoka, and I was still sort of high on the emotion of the finale when I wrote my initial post. Madoka, the main character, was probably the most boring of them all and had very little development throughout the series, but I think that the fact that she was so boring and tasteless might be partially the point, being she didn't know who she was or what she wanted to do - Spoiler: show I don't know, I was just thinking about it and thought since a 10 is supposed to basically be well rounded in every department... and in reflection, Madoka was well rounded in almost every department. I know it's hard to do that in only 12 episodes, but even one more just to flesh out the characters a bit more would have been nice in retrospect. Spoiler: show Anyway, those are just the sort of things I've been musing over, so I'm thinking a bit more rationally about it now that I'm done and sitting here and going over it all. Don't get me wrong though, I still think it's deserving of a 9 because it was a great adventure with a dark twist and great concepts. And the characters were all likable, even if underdeveloped. Spoiler: show |
06-21-2013, 10:05 PM | #5195 |
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I think very highly of Madoka, it gets a 9/10 from me. It fell short of 10/10 because I recognize some characterization flaws (I HATED how Kyouko grew soft for no reason). It easily blew away another dark magical girl show I saw in Nanoha, and I also liked it way more than what I saw of Card Captor Sakura and Sailor Moon. Probably the best anime I've ever seen from a purely stylistic perspective; the way the visuals, animation, and music worked together, with some strong twists to back it up was just amazing. You know the phrase "All style and no substance"? Madoka has tons of style, and some substance, too! The only magical girl show I've seen that comes close is Princess Tutu, but it's not REALLY a magical girl show. Madoka was a more powerful experience overall, but Princess Tutu has a stronger storyline and characters in a literary sense.
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06-21-2013, 11:16 PM | #5196 |
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Shinryaku! Ika Musume (manga)
I'm 75 chapters into this, so it's a good time to talk about my experience so far. I'm actually enjoying this alot more than I remember enjoying the anime. I think the anime was pretty funny, but not much else. The manga is just as funny, but it's so god damn heartwarming. This seems to focus more on Ika learning things about human society. Alot of this is the usual SoL, but I can't help but smile at Ika's almost animal-like reaction to everything. I'll continue reading in hopes that things don't get old. Next I should read the manga Doppel recommended to me. I'm still waiting for my damn Animal Crossing to arrive! |
06-22-2013, 10:50 AM | #5197 |
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PhotoKano: I've been keeping up with this series but I guess I've just neglected to post about it for several weeks now. As a reminder, Episode 09 was the Nonoka episode (the athletic girl). Episode 10 was the Mai episode (the loli gymnast). Episode 11 was the Rina episode (the large-breasted lover of cooking). And Episode 12, which I just saw, was the Tomoe episode (the quiet shy girl).
Episode 09: Spoiler: show Episode 10: Spoiler: show Episode 11: Spoiler: show Episode 12: Spoiler: show In the end, of the seven main girls, my ranking of girl preference would be: Niimi Haruka > Yunoki Rina > Masaki Nonoka = Sanehara Hikari >= Misumi Tomoe > Muroto Aki > Sakura MaiAnd my ranking of route preference would have to be: Niimi Haruka > Misumi Tomoe > Masaki Nonoka > Sanehara Hikari > Yunoki Rina > Sakura Mai > Muroto AkiBut we're not completely done yet. Because we've still got ... Episode 13: (sneak peek) Spoiler: show
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06-22-2013, 11:49 AM | #5198 |
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I just watched episode 2 of the Touhou Fantasy Kaleidoscope anime. Here's a voiced and English subbed youtube video of it. It feels weird talking about an anime in the videogame section, so I'll talk about it here rather than the Touhou thread.
Like all of the Touhou videos they do, this one looks really nice, but at a good 12 minutes. I didn't like the humor at all, but everything else was nice. I guess we'll have to wait until the next reitaisai for the second part of this! I've also played a bit into Hopeless Masquerade, so when I'm not feeling so lazy, I'll post about it in the Touhou thread. |
06-22-2013, 12:49 PM | #5199 |
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On a whim, I started Tari Tari. I'm two-thirds of the way through Episode 01 and really enjoying it. It feels like the missing P.A.Works series I've long wanted since Hanasaku Iroha wrapped up. Another was fine but it was a serious murder mystery with nothing at all like Hanasaku Iroha's tone. And Red Data Girl was apparently really bad, from what I hear. But Tari Tari, while it was originally a series I skipped because it looked kinda boring and like it wasn't meant for me, has so far been sort of just what the doctor ordered. It hasn't been magnificent or anything yet, but it's been really very solid. If I had to score it based alone on what I've seen so far, it'd be 8/10. It's a really solid opening episode for yet another entry in the long, long list of high school days-genre shows.
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06-22-2013, 07:34 PM | #5200 |
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D-d-d-double post!
Tari Tari: Through Episode 02 now. The series is still an 8/10. Not bad. I'd love for it to go up from here, and there's the potential that it may, but I'm trying not to get my hopes up too high. I just want to let the show play its course and then I'll worry about the strength of my feelings later. (Famous last words? Probably.) Konatsu is definitely my favorite character. I can appreciate how Sakai, what with her mother having died, is intended as the dramatic focus / the dramatic protagonist of the series, but I really do perceive Konatsu as the main character of Tari Tari. She has the most screen time, she started the club, and she's the one driving the plot forward. So I'm all sorts of puzzled that the series opened with Sakai's flashback scene as that's the sort of thing you do for a main character. Not always, though, I guess. *recalls Fate/stay night and how that opens with Tohsaka Rin's summoning of Archer* The show has a really masterful handle on comedy. It's funny, it knows it's funny, and God bless it it's modest about this fact! That is such a rare treat. Usually when writers try to be funny, they get carried away and feel like they have to hammer things home one way or another. Usually it's either by going way over the top with the humor, by explaining the joke to us at home, or both. Tari Tari has really delightfully avoided both of these pitfalls and has instead delivered awesomely funny moment after awesomely funny moment that a) weren't that loud/flashy/strong/pungent/extreme (pick an adjective) and that b) usually are gone as quickly as they came, with the characters in-universe responding to them just as people would in the real world. There's no stupid facefaulting. There's no stupid "EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!?"s where inappropriate. It's just normal, normal reactions to some rather humorous moments. Some of the ones which come to mind include: Spoiler: show The vice principal is such a bitch. It seems to be hinted at though that there are reasons for her attitude. Guess I should spoiler tag these too, just in case, even though it's just personal speculation informed by the first two episodes' worth of material. Spoiler: show Still, it doesn't mean that I have to like her. Man oh man am I worried about {the thing that's revealed at the end of Episode 02}! Meina no Fukurou: I've got about five pages to go before Chapter 01's complete. (I'm through page 22 by the tankoubon's page count, and what I'm calling the last page of the chapter is page 27.) I really wish that as if by magic a friendly and capable image editor had fallen into my lap, but of course that hasn't happened and so I'm not really sure what I'll do. I'm not going to waste hours and hours of my time on trying to professionally PhotoShop in the text (especially when the way I do it it's still going to look like crap ), but I might wind up doing Chapter 01 all by myself just to try and get people interested. And then maybe, maybe, if it starts to circulate or something, who knows: maybe I'll find someone who's willing and able to help me edit the pictures. Hell, I could even say to them as their assignment, "Re-edit Chapter 01 and show me what it'd look like when you do it."
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