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Old 12-17-2015, 12:22 AM   #1
Doppleganger
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Ash should have been retired after Orange

Not even a poll, because I'm really skeptical anyone will disagree with this premise. It's almost a rant at this point.

Orange corrected a lot of the problems with Indigo -

1. Ash got some credibly powerful, rare Pokemon that he was denied in Indigo for marketing/balancing purposes (Snorlax/Lapras).
2. Ash's team wasn't reset, so there was no ridiculous nerfing of his experience and skills, allowing him to build and take the next step
3. Ash and his friends were able to go through significant character development with his Pokemon (Charizard) or other Pokemon/people in Orange
4. The battles were more interesting since they weren't focused solely on fights
5. The final battle was legendary and remains one of the top Pokemon fights decades after it aired
6. Ash made up for his loss in Indigo by beating a "tougher" league. Kind of like failing out of college, then graduating from an even more prestigious one later with honours

Orange had filler - BORING, difficult to emotionally connect to filler - but that pales in comparison to the worst stuff of Johto. Really, aside from the massive power creep Johto showed early on then scaled back as Ash's veteran team disintegrated, Johto was terrible and un-interesting. Even the game Johto, despite being very "Japanese!" was less interesting to me in 2002 than say, Unova was in 2010.
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:28 AM   #2
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Well I like Ash in Diamond and Pearl and up better than Indigo to like, Ruby and Sapphire. He just seems more mature and not as little-kiddish . Also, who would of taken his place?
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:21 AM   #3
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Probably a male protag who looks like the protag in each individual game (or a female one! Serena would make a great main character).

Ash is a visual match for Red. Not the best, but a good one nonetheless.
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Old 12-17-2015, 07:39 AM   #4
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Honestly, the ridiculous filler that plagued the latter half a Johto aside, I feel Ash should probably have been retired after Johto. It kind of made sense for him to go there, seeing how it's right next-door to Kanto, plus I like how his team was gradually replaced with newer additions, but left him able to call on Pokémon like Snorlax and Charizard for the Johto League.

But after that he absolutely should have been axed. While I love the progression he showed in series like Sinnoh, him just getting completely mind-wiped every season has gotten old and stale. May should have been the main protagonist of Hoenn, with a cast of characters surrounding her, and the formula should have continued with every new region and protagonist.

But we're stuck with Ash. Mostly because we're stuck with Pikachu and his strangle-hold on the franchise mascot position. Ugh.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:27 AM   #5
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I would agree that Johto is a better point. Hoenn Ash was a total moron.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:55 AM   #6
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Orange Islands was much better raw on the adult revisit than I remembered it being from when I watched it dubbed as a teenager. That stated, I think you're giving it too much credit, Doppel. I never got the impression from the season that the Orange Archipelago's league tournament is more prestigious or more difficult than the Indigo League's. And the storytelling is not significantly different from Kanto's.

I would say that Ash, as the obvious TV Red that he always was, should have been retired in favor of Gold (or a TV Gold) around the time GS came out; further, Ash should have won the League (as silly as that might have been; but a one-off season sets up for it, as did the games' own plot), and the time IRL that was filled with Orange Islands inter-regional filler should have been spent on Ash's Elite Four challenge run, his confrontation with Gary at the pinnacle of the League, his victory, and then a visit to the Unknown Dungeon which could've either been explored on screen or else nothing more than a segue for the first film. End the series with Ash calming Mewtwo's heart and there's that, "Impostor Red"'s story's done.

I would not have retired him after the Orange Islands, given how even Kanto (never mind Orange Islands) whet fans' appetites for the upcoming sequels. You could still have him leave after Kanto, but by the time you've finished Orange Islands fans are understandably going to want to see Ash go to Johto -- especially if it's Canon Ash, the one who lost at the league, since we all know that Kanto and Johto share a conference and this would've been the obvious redemption arc for Ash.

-------------------------------------

As a related but separate conversation ... hindsight bias is 20/20, but in hindsight I really, really wish that they had not given us Ash or Ash's story in the first place. I would've much rather had a "Redder Red" for the protagonist and a plot which more closely hugged the games'. It isn't too late for them to revisit this possibility: a separate series that corresponds with each main series game. So you'd have ...
  • Kanto series, starring Red
  • Johto series, starring Gold
  • Hoenn series, starring either Brendan or May
  • Sinnoh series, starring Dawn because fuck the Sinnoh male protagonist
  • Unova series 1, starring either Hilbert or Hilda
  • Unova series 2, starring either Nate or Rosa (I'd prefer Rosa)
  • Kalos series, starring either Calem or Serena (I'd prefer Serena)
Seven series, each of which is no shorter than 52 episodes (one year). That's a minimum of seven years of content, and possibly something nearer to fourteen years of content. They can and totally should get on this ball. Let Sho Pro keep the Ash anime, and let another studio (or studios) handle the long-running adaptation of the video games.

Each series has a mapped beginning, middle, and end. There's a definite end in sight each time, no escaping it. This axes the predilection to write the show as a Scooby Doo series (where none of our permanent fixtures ever meaningfully change) and comfortably pushes it into a more Avatar: the Last Airbender position.

I wish that they had done this from the start, in hindsight, but hindsight or not there's no reason why they can't do it now. It can either replace the Ash anime (which I'm not asking for) or it can co-exist alongside it. But there just plain isn't any reason to hold back from doing a 52+ episode Pokémon: the Origin at this point. No reason whatsoever.

And to be honest, if they did do this, it could even give fans of the Ash anime a chance at closure: if Nintendo opted to run the two series (Ash Anime and Game Anime) side by side, and if the Game Anime proved to be super popular (as it would), it would free Sho Pro up to have Ash, rather than visiting Region 7 (or whatever is the next region when this plan is in motion), return home to Kanto and prepare for his second challenge of the Indigo League. Challenge it, take home 1st prize, win an invitation to challenge the Elite Four, challenge the Elite Four, win or lose however many times but don't drag it out and ultimately have him win for sure, have him face the Champion (who could no longer be Gary because Ash Anime reasons), toss in some resolution with Giovanni somewhere in there, have him meet Ho-oh, and call it a day. Retire the Ash anime with as much grace as is possible at this point, and then we just have one Pokémon anime -- the anime based on the latest region.
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Old 12-17-2015, 05:51 PM   #7
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Challenging the Elite 4 dream died a long time ago ;-;

Thanks, Ash...ole
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Old 12-17-2015, 08:37 PM   #8
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I don't really agree with or understand the idea that Ash should have gone Johto. In a theoretical sense, perhaps. But with the show's treatment of Johto, I feel like there's a sense of conflating the actual event of Ash visiting Johto with the desire to have him succeed there.

Johto is Gold's territory. Ash really didn't have any business there, and Johto's portrayal was very paradoxical and contradictory.

We begin - is Johto supposed to be stronger, or weaker than Kanto?

In the anime, Johto appeared out of nowhere, but was treated like it was always there and had free interaction with Kanto. It was never mentioned in the series until right after Eevee beat Pikachu, and was portrayed as a "New World" despite being heavily draped in the costume of Japanese history. When you go to Johto, things like the acorn balls and the history of cities have suggested Johto is far older than the Kanto settlement. It's very surreal, like traveling back in time from modern Japan to a more antiquated one and it being portrayed as technologically, culturally more advanced.

In the games, Johto was portrayed as always existing, but being geographically isolated from Kanto by virtue of the Indigo Plateau. So the power levels of the two areas were significant. Travel was a lot harder in Johto due to geography, so trainers didn't get the mass level of experience that they did in Kanto. Technology was also more limited, there wasn't anything equivalent to Silph Co. supplying the cities with new innovations, so there were fewer ways to pump Pokemon power like in Kanto. The Safari Zone was a great place to capture rare and powerful Pokemon in Kanto. The best Johto had to offer were oversized bugs.

If the anime followed the games, Ash should have wrecked Johto with his original team, and any Pokemon he caught there should have already been acclimated to that level of power. And it's possible he would have, because the writers made sure to ship off his veteran Pokemon before lowering the power level of later trainers (like Whitney).

It bothered me that Faulker, who was beyond a pushover in the games, faced Ash at full strength off his Orange League victory with an unbelievably stacked team of fully evolved Pokemon. It created the idea that Johto was an unbelievably strong new stage, and that Ash would be challenged the whole way and not crush the league like he did Orange.

The anime backing off this route and deliberately sabotaging Ash's strength and experience was the first instance of the writers meddling with his development to suit prolonging the story. There's little thematic point in Ash going to Johto unless you parallel the games where Gold travels to Kanto and suddenly it's like x100 gravity, or the reverse - Ash crushes the "new world" because it's weak like in the games. It's a moot discussion after Johto because Hoenn and Sinnoh are just repeats of the Johto purgatory.

@Talon: Whether you got that impression or not, at the start of Orange Professor Oak says that it's a stronger league than Kanto. I'll take that, along with Ash's own advanced experience, as evidence that Orange was tougher than Kanto was, especially considering how Ash basically was given a third of his badges in Kanto.

On the whole, you see a lot more high number (#110+) Pokemon like Snorlax, Scyther, Lapras, Dragonite, and higher evolved Pokemon, than in Kanto. The Gyms focusing on competition rather than straight-out battles also helped obscure the power levels. The final team Drake deployed in Pummelo was easily and by far the most powerful assembly of Pokemon seen to that point in the series, and still represents an imposing lineup even into Kalos.
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Old 12-17-2015, 11:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stlbk View Post
Challenging the Elite 4 dream died a long time ago ;-;

Thanks, Ash...ole
AK2 and I are keeping the dream alive!

Apparently in the Hoenn saga, Wallace tells Ash that there is this thing called the Champion League. In it, all the world's champions gather to compete for the title of Pokémon Master. (Yes, they finally codified what this means. Pokémon Master = "Champion of Champions.") The thing is, why would you bother teasing the existence of a Champion League if you didn't plan on taking us there at some point? Obviously that point has a very narrow window of time: wait too long and you'll miss it, but show it too early and you've ended your could've-gone-longer show too soon. If we're to see it, it'll have to come in the narrow window between realizing the show is going to get canceled in the next few years and the show actually getting canceled.

Ever since AK2 shared this with me, I've been hopeful that we will one day get to see Ash challenge the Elite Four. Clearly the Ash we have in Kalos (and had in Unova, and in Sinnoh, and in Hoenn ...) isn't cut out for it. But maybe the writers can pull a Unova Team Rocket with Ash. Maybe they can have his Gen 7 tour or his Gen 8 tour start off with an Ash who suddenly feels ten years older maturity-wise and experience-wise, an Ash who seems like he has a legit chance at wrecking face at the League conference, taking home the gold, and earning his invite to challenge Lorelei, Bruno, Agatha, and Lance.

Realistically speaking, it probably won't happen. Realistically speaking, the show will keep on going with what we've had for the past fifteen years and then, one day, the plug will be pulled and all we'll get at best is end-of-season closure, not end-of-series closure in any meaningful way. (A quick "... and then, many years later, he became a Pokémon Master!" doesn't count, Mr. Narrator. )
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Old 12-23-2015, 07:56 AM   #10
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Ash is the strongest trainer in the anime by far, and even when he wins some stuff, such as the islands, he even beats everything with Pikachu alone.
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Old 01-06-2016, 10:53 PM   #11
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People are missing the context here. In Orange Islands they couldn't even get rid of Brock because his character was too popular and they had to bring him back. No way were they going to be able to get rid of Ash at that point.

Had Johto been written better with all filler removed, then yeah, maybe at the end of Johto it would have been a good end for the anime. Since that's where the original series ended as a whole.

AG could have been about Brendan and May, and from there on after with every new lead from the games.
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:52 AM   #12
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Meh, I'm not massively into the anime (partly because Ash is a douche and I hate Pikachu), but I do think that Kalos set itself up for potential to be a decent anime thing from the games, with a new batch of five who could easily be the centerpiece group (and potentially made so that three of them didn't suck), instead of boring old Ash, the female protag from the games who becomes a contest person, and a gym leader.
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Old 01-07-2016, 01:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
AK2 and I are keeping the dream alive!

Apparently in the Hoenn saga, Wallace tells Ash that there is this thing called the Champion League. In it, all the world's champions gather to compete for the title of Pokémon Master. (Yes, they finally codified what this means. Pokémon Master = "Champion of Champions.") The thing is, why would you bother teasing the existence of a Champion League if you didn't plan on taking us there at some point? Obviously that point has a very narrow window of time: wait too long and you'll miss it, but show it too early and you've ended your could've-gone-longer show too soon. If we're to see it, it'll have to come in the narrow window between realizing the show is going to get canceled in the next few years and the show actually getting canceled.

Ever since AK2 shared this with me, I've been hopeful that we will one day get to see Ash challenge the Elite Four. Clearly the Ash we have in Kalos (and had in Unova, and in Sinnoh, and in Hoenn ...) isn't cut out for it. But maybe the writers can pull a Unova Team Rocket with Ash. Maybe they can have his Gen 7 tour or his Gen 8 tour start off with an Ash who suddenly feels ten years older maturity-wise and experience-wise, an Ash who seems like he has a legit chance at wrecking face at the League conference, taking home the gold, and earning his invite to challenge Lorelei, Bruno, Agatha, and Lance.

Realistically speaking, it probably won't happen. Realistically speaking, the show will keep on going with what we've had for the past fifteen years and then, one day, the plug will be pulled and all we'll get at best is end-of-season closure, not end-of-series closure in any meaningful way. (A quick "... and then, many years later, he became a Pokémon Master!" doesn't count, Mr. Narrator. )
This would probably be the biggest hype event the anime could have ever created. Ash's journey ends, the story finishes, and then new characters are introduced and the series' main goal is able to continue without him as the main character.
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Old 01-09-2016, 05:40 AM   #14
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Well. They did Pokémon Origins.

What's stopping them redoing the animé? Assume remakes of Gen I in, let's say, 5 years, corresponding with the release of the new Pokémon MMO and the approval of commercial development of do it yourself genetic splicing kits that will allow kids to make their own Pokémon.

I'd watch a new animé.
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Old 01-10-2016, 10:24 PM   #15
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Remaking the anime, in theory, isn't a bad idea. However, I wouldn't cite Pokemon: The Origins as evidence that it could be done in a satisfying manner for fans. Origins had horrible production values and an ulterior motive behind its conception (to promote Mega Evolutions, something distinctly NOT vintage RBY).

Origins reminds me of Sailor Moon Crystal as a story that only appealed to a hypothetical fan. People enjoyed the original Pokemon anime and would want to see a continuation of that. Those who enjoyed the Adventures series would want to see an adaption of that. Origins appealed to a fan who wanted a faithful adaption of the original games, except Origins was more an adaption of FR/LG than the original RBY (which the original anime was closer to in look/adventure feel).

No fan ever existed who wanted a RBY remake that looked like FR/LG. Those who grew up with FR/LG weren't fans of RBY (or maybe never even saw a Gameboy). I can't imagine Geewunners preferring FR/LG to their nostalgia-coated youth adventure in RBY. So the end product is something that tries to appeal to everyone, but really appeals no no one person in particular.

At that, given how the IPs in Pokemon work, I doubt you'd get something similar to how the Giant Robo OVAs came into being. 20 years after GR came out, it's still unique in how it came to be.
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Old 01-11-2016, 02:12 AM   #16
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Even if Origins had been a 26 episode anime instead of 4 episodes...I think it would have gotten boring fast. I mean what can you do really with a kid traveling by himself to the game locations?

It would fall into the same trap as the normal anime, making random episodes of Red helping trainers with their problems, beating every Gym leader with little effort, and then catching a bunch of pokemon with no personality/character because we would hardly get to know them like Ash's Pokemon.

The regular anime treats the Pokemon on the group as actual characters, rather than just battle machines, so they stand out that way.
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Old 01-12-2016, 03:36 PM   #17
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There are a lot of words in this and I dont even watch the anime but this is my feelings on the matter, laid out completely. Spoilered for Kush's sake so his phone doesn't lag out.

Spoiler: show
There is plenty of room for established personalities in a theoretical full-series Origins. The issue is that the main theme of Pokemon as a whole is growth and maturity over the course of an epic journey. Pokemon change shape and grow stronger over time, and the person who trains and controls them changes too.

The thing about Red is that, unlike Ash, his goal is narrow and easily defined - he wants to beat the Elite Four and become the Champion. I don't know what Ash exactly wants, but he's definitely not going to get it anytime soon. Ash's pokemon are chosen mostly at random, but Red's are clearly chosen - he was gifted all of his pokemon, with the exception of Snorlax, who is an event battle. He sticks with those and doesn't catch any others.

With the barest of imagination, a writer of any kind of skill would be able to draft simple personalities for each character on the show. Red is known for being silent. Snorlax is hungry and lazy. Pikachu is energetic and quick. Charizard is short tempered and violent. Venusaur is slow and methodical. Blastoise is cocky and arrogant. Lapras is kind and gentle.

A talented writer might also include Blue as a recurring character on a theoretical full-series Origins (following both red and blue), or perhaps as a character who may be only seen occasionally, but clearly has an equally rich and interesting journey and story of his own, the way it is in the game. In Yellow he has Eevee, which could either stay as Eevee to mirror Red's team or be joined by other Eeveelutions, and then Alakazam/Sandslash/Exeggutor/(Magneton/Jolteon)/(Cloyster/Vaporeon)/(Ninetales/Flareon), replacing any of the first three with Eevee if it does not evolve. In R/B, he has some more choices such as Arcanine, Pidgeot, Rhydon, and Gyarados. Building a memorable team from those characters is not terribly difficult.

The actual details are totally immaterial. Ash is not a good fit for a Pokemon series just because of the way he is and the things he represents. Put him to rest, pump out a good Origins, and then continue on with the protags of each game as main characters. The Gen VI protag dynamic is honestly an amazing setup for a TV show, and it's a shame that Ash just got plugged into the new season :/
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