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Old 12-12-2016, 07:52 PM   #3126
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>"Breitbart"
>"really fishy"

Stunning.
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:12 AM   #3127
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Are you trying to imply that having the chairman of an online news organization that was biased in your favor on your cabinet staff as a senior advisor is at all suspicious or strange?
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Old 12-13-2016, 03:43 PM   #3128
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No, I think he's implying Breitbart is more than just "really fishy", what with some of the headlines they run.
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:02 PM   #3129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeet View Post
Given how bad the DNC emails were, can you imagine how bad RNC emails would have been? And given Trump's public tweets, can you imagine how bad his personal emails would be? It would discredit the American electoral system eeeeeven further.
Nothing could have been worse than Trump actually winning the election. That says bad things to the rest of the world.

Even better, how he actually won it.
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:26 PM   #3130
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:07 PM   #3131
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Old 12-14-2016, 02:23 PM   #3132
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*smirk*

Reminds me of a political cartoon a saw a little while back.
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Context Edit: Canadian Minister of Defence Harjit Sajjan left, Tim Kaine right. Yes I find this picture very ironic.

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Old 12-14-2016, 02:45 PM   #3133
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I am moderately confused due to a lack of context on people's posts.
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:50 PM   #3134
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I had a lot of fun researching my final project in English, which is a research paper on political polarization.

https://news.vice.com/story/journali...=vicenewsfbads

I am an engineer and data is my heroin, but the article is pretty accessible and the visual representations are fun.
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Old 12-14-2016, 08:09 PM   #3135
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It sort of looks like Trump supporters were really the ones to isolate themselves. At least, from what I'm seeing. Which sort of goes against the narrative that its all the liberal's fault why things happened the way they did.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:24 PM   #3136
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Meanwhile, Putin was personally involved in the US elections hack.

...Goooooood luck, America.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:25 PM   #3137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emi View Post
It sort of looks like Trump supporters were really the ones to isolate themselves. At least, from what I'm seeing. Which sort of goes against the narrative that its all the liberal's fault why things happened the way they did.
Wasn't there a piece showing that liberals were much MUCH more likely to cut Trump voters/Republicans out of their lives after the election?
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:43 AM   #3138
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Even if that were true (and I think its exaggeration), that's not really the issue here, because that's after the election. We're talking about stuff like this, which I've considered and very much wanted to dismiss because it feels like moral posturing (and personally, I think Kuno linking this was a bad move). It's this continual rhetoric that we were consistently the ones at fault, and only us.

We're the ones that didn't try, and the other side is blameless in this.
We're the ones that holed ourselves up in a bubble, and the other side is blameless in this.
We're the ones who silenced others, and the other side is blameless in this.

It's nice to see that, at least on Twitter, its very likely the opposite and with some minor research its very easy to find the other side had just as much to blame if not more than we did in other areas of the internet. This isn't to say there isn't lessons to be learned: there is and I've seen articles which do that effectively.

But hey, you can't criticize the people who won because you gotta kiss ass when you're a moderate third party voter, right?
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Old 12-15-2016, 02:04 AM   #3139
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Even if liberals are the ones isolating people for supporting Trump...so what?

There exist people who think supporting Trump and voting for him is an awful enough action to warrant speaking out against just for that simple action. Example: Me. If the majority of liberals- or hell, even any significant number of liberals - think along similar lines - that supporting or voting for Trump is in itself irredeemable - well, then why not?

Voting for Trump was an action. People are going to treat you based on your actions. If they think your actions are fucked up enough to cut you off, then they are going to do so.

People claim that "Trump won because Trump voters were scared to speak out in public but then voted anyway." Demonstrably false. Trump won because Democratic turnout was at an all-time low, because polls were about ~2% off and Democratic voters became overconfident, or maybe because of James Comey who cut Hillary's ~6% lead to a ~2% lead, because of Hillary Clinton being a terrible candidate who inspired nearly nobody...as in any close election, there are tons and tons of reasons that Trump won and Hillary didn't. Ostracization of Trump supporters is not one of those reasons. Even if it were one of these reasons, it still wouldn't mean anything. People who would ostracize Trump supporters are not ever going to be easily convinced that there were valid reasons to vote for Trump. Especially not seeing his Cabinet, or what he's already planned to do, or how he's literally angry at Twitter because it didn't give him a Crooked Hillary emoji.

So no. If it ever was a problem, it was a problem caused by their actions. And you haven't even actually given us any source that it was a problem.

But this all goes back to the post I made a few days ago, isn't it? There's no question of compromise anymore. I'm not going to back down from thinking Republicans are fucking crazy and will, given time, fuck up the US as well as the whole world - unless they stop proving me right repeatedly, by putting forth candidates for President, VP, or Senators that don't want to impose Christianity on the world, by not oppressing my LGBT friends and family in the US and by extension the world, by not opposing welfare and healthcare that saves lives and families, and by not ignoring the single largest problem in the world: climate change. I'm not going to back down from thinking that Trump is a bigoted fascist madman who could potentially incite war, nuclear or otherwise, until he proves that he isn't, by not picking fucking horrific people for his Candidate, by not pissing off the Chinese to the point that they fly bombers over Taiwan, by not accepting help from Putin to win the election.

And I'm sure that many Trump voters aren't going to back down, either.

And, of course, the Venn Diagram of "news sources accepted by both sides" is a null set.

Every day that goes by shows how much has been and will be destroyed.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:11 AM   #3140
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Interesting discussion!

Yes, Trump voters isolated themselves, but I think you were a little hasty to jump to conclusions about why, Emi. Since both camps consume media, and most journalists skew left, there's bias involved. The current state of our country is that we cloister ourselves away from opinions we don't like and information that is used to attack us. This means that Trump voters were forced away from most reputable journalism and debate both by choice and by active disconnection.

You can see many times in this thread that I was a target for ire for my "despicable political views" - and many, many people on this forum called me racist, blocked my posts from appearing, etc. People like Rangeet, who are ready to go on a tirade about anything Trump, are everywhere, and as we've all seen with Rangeet, they are unwilling "to back down from thinking Republicans are fucking crazy and will, given time, fuck up the US as well as the whole world - unless they stop proving me right repeatedly, by putting forth candidates for President, VP, or Senators that don't want to impose Christianity on the world, by not oppressing my LGBT friends and family in the US and by extension the world, by not opposing welfare and healthcare that saves lives and families, and by not ignoring the single largest problem in the world: climate change. I'm not going to back down from thinking that Trump is a bigoted fascist madman who could potentially incite war, nuclear or otherwise, until he proves that he isn't, by not picking fucking horrific people for his Candidate, by not pissing off the Chinese to the point that they fly bombers over Taiwan, by not accepting help from Putin to win the election."

(Trump is not Christian and Pence doesn't want to impose Christianity on anyone, Trump is pro-LGBT even though Pence is not (this one is a point in 'Geet's favor, though it's a little weakened because Pence is VP, Obamacare needs reform and Trump never wanted to get rid of universal health care, and Trump JUST met with Al Gore to discuss climate change so we'll probably see a reversal there - though I'll give this one to Geet, global politics is a LITTLE BIT more complicated than that, but hey - at least he's justifiably pissed about Putin.)

Liberals did bubble themselves up. So did conservatives, but liberals had the misfortune of bubbling themselves up and taking nearly every journalist left of FOX News with them, so they had nearly all the media attention and visibility, as well as the ones whose party was in power. Because of this, I'd say that the burden of mending bridges and softening rhetoric did belong to the Left this election cycle, and what we're seeing in those graphs is that not happening.

@Rangeet: Funny you should say that! There was a fun reddit post that I'm unsure if I can actually use for data but which is a large part of my thesis that Americans need to expose themselves to information and opinions that they disagree with.



It's a little simplified and doesn't take enough bias into account - ex, NYT is more left of that, NPR is more right, WSJ is more right, BBC is more left, CNN is more left - but it's accurate in a broad sense. Also for some reason I can't fathom, it's the only non-far-right place I've seen that dares to suggest that HuffPo delves at all into liberal conspiracy theory bullshit. Is that not immediately clear to everyone? Am I the crazy one?
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:50 AM   #3141
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Perhaps liberals wouldn't be so scurred of Trump if Mr. Constitutional Law Professor Obama hadn't spent the last 8 years flouting the Constitution at every turn, and grabbing more and more power for the executive branch.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:04 AM   #3142
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Do be fair, Obama was just picking up where GWB left off. I think either Rove or Cheney said that Nixon basically ruined the presidency by letting all the imperial power he had accumulated drain out because of Watergate. As much as Nixon strengthened things, the backlash made subsequent presidencies nearly impotent, and GWB sought to reverse that and reclaim Nixon's gains.

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Also for some reason I can't fathom, it's the only non-far-right place I've seen that dares to suggest that HuffPo delves at all into liberal conspiracy theory bullshit. Is that not immediately clear to everyone? Am I the crazy one?
I don't know much about Huffpost. I read it every once in a while and don't feel like I'm wearing a darker shade of blue.

For example, I think this review on Obama's presidency is a pretty honest take.

Granted, the seeds of a horrible future have been planted with Obama's economic policies, in the same way that the dot-com crash and free trade agreements soured Clinton's. But as of 2016 the resume is pretty impressive...when you consider the low bar a lot of presidents couldn't clear in American history.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:05 AM   #3143
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...Mozz, do you read what you've typed before you send it? That assertion is so ludicrous and without base in facts I don't even know where to begin.

You're right about one thing: the last eight years of Obama has shown me why I should be scared of Trump. Not because Obama "grabbed power for the executive branch", there hasn't been a President who hasn't done that for generations. But because Obama showed me, as a 16 year old kid who had only seen the bumbling moron who preceded him in the oval office up until 2009, how a President should act. Obama is an articulate, powerful, and masterful speaker. Trump babbles like a fourth grader in the lunchroom. Obama has taken every reasonable measure to ensure the safety and prosperity of the people he was given the privilege to protect. Trump wants to take our poorer, weaker, sicker people and kick them out of the country, cut them off of their financial aid that they need to put food on the table and have a table to put it on, cut them off of their health care, which will surely result in the needless deaths of god only knows how many Americans. Obama treats most everyone he meets with respect and dignity. Trump rambles on twitter at 3 in the morning about what a fat, ugly whore some model who doesn't like him is. Obama is a gentleman, Trump gropes women because "he's famous enough to." Obama has the foresight to know that both climate change and foreign affairs need to be handled quickly and carefully. Trump lacks foresight to the extent that he'll put off combating climate change for another four to eight years, and has made some laughable horrible foreign policy decisions before even entering office.

So yeah, if what you mean is that having eight years of a competent gentleman who's safe pair of hands I've always felt comfortable allowing my country to rest in has made me terrified of an ignorant, morally repulsive Oompa Loompa who knows nothing of the job he's signed on for, you're absolutely right.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:47 AM   #3144
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>Rangeet

Well I mean, actively dividing people into two camps and having both camps spend all their time yelling that the other one is pantomime villain evil is much worse for a country than Republicans in general, so. The fact that Trump's been doing exactly that is for me personally my single biggest issue with him.

>There's no question of compromise anymore.

I'm at least as socially liberal as you on most areas and strongly disagree with basically the entire Republican platform, but I still prefer a Clintonesque "I've spent decades compromising on my beliefs across the aisle to make lasting progress" to a Trumpesque "my opponents are all evil and stupid and only the ideas I support are worth even the slightest consideration". Imo a small change that lasts because you've put in the compromises to make it at least semi-acceptable to the other side is better than a big change that has every line of it repealed a couple of years later, and I don't believe you can make any lasting change without some degree of bipartisan compromise - anything one side (conservative or liberal makes no difference here) does unilaterally, the other will just scrap when it's their chance at power.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:48 AM   #3145
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...Mozz, do you read what you've typed before you send it? That assertion is so ludicrous and without base in facts I don't even know where to begin.

You're right about one thing: the last eight years of Obama has shown me why I should be scared of Trump. Not because Obama "grabbed power for the executive branch", there hasn't been a President who hasn't done that for generations. But because Obama showed me, as a 16 year old kid who had only seen the bumbling moron who preceded him in the oval office up until 2009, how a President should act. Obama is an articulate, powerful, and masterful speaker. Trump babbles like a fourth grader in the lunchroom. Obama has taken every reasonable measure to ensure the safety and prosperity of the people he was given the privilege to protect. Trump wants to take our poorer, weaker, sicker people and kick them out of the country, cut them off of their financial aid that they need to put food on the table and have a table to put it on, cut them off of their health care, which will surely result in the needless deaths of god only knows how many Americans. Obama treats most everyone he meets with respect and dignity. Trump rambles on twitter at 3 in the morning about what a fat, ugly whore some model who doesn't like him is. Obama is a gentleman, Trump gropes women because "he's famous enough to." Obama has the foresight to know that both climate change and foreign affairs need to be handled quickly and carefully. Trump lacks foresight to the extent that he'll put off combating climate change for another four to eight years, and has made some laughable horrible foreign policy decisions before even entering office.
The reality of Obama's presidency was that he didn't meet nearly enough with Congress or get involved with the actual affairs of government.

http://www.politifact.com/iowa/state...blican-senato/

Quote:
And it’s worth noting, too, that the records indicate that Obama hasn’t dined privately with Democratic senators all that often either – suggesting that private evening meals just aren’t part of Obama’s congressional relations strategy.
His relationships with Congress were actually fairly strained on both sides of the aisle and it's his inexperience that you can blame for that. Great public speaker, not too good behind the scenes. The shutdown and the Obamacare disaster (not Obamacare itself, just the public and congressional response to it) are solid evidence of that.

Public speaking skills are one (1) way to judge a President.

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So yeah, if what you mean is that having eight years of a competent gentleman who's safe pair of hands I've always felt comfortable allowing my country to rest in has made me terrified of an ignorant, morally repulsive Oompa Loompa who knows nothing of the job he's signed on for, you're absolutely right.
Can I also remind you that the Obama administration has been bombing Muslim civilians?

Quote:
“Between January 2012 and February 2013,” The Intercept reported, “U.S. special operations airstrikes killed more than 200 people. Of those, only 35 were the intended targets. During one five-month period of the operation, according to the documents, nearly 90 percent of the people killed in airstrikes were not the intended targets.” That’s one campaign of many in just one country where drone killings happen.
From The Atlantic, left-leaning news source, wrong kind of bias here, big sorry.

I really hate to shatter your childhood dreams and discredit your hero. And honestly, I'm an Obama fan. I think he did a good job. But to completely ignore all the shitty things he did or failed to do would be dishonest to him and to the country.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:52 AM   #3146
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I'm an Obama fan. I think he did a good job. But to completely ignore all the shitty things he did or failed to do would be dishonest to him and to the country.
Hey, something we actually agree on.
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Old 12-15-2016, 10:35 AM   #3147
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I'm not saying Obama was perfect, nor am I saying we should ignore his flawed. What I'm saying is he's a great man and was a rather solid President. Trump is a morally repugnant human being and, I believe, will be nothing short of a terrible President. And I think the sharp contrast between the two men is part of why Trump concerns me so much.
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Old 12-15-2016, 11:17 AM   #3148
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Praising Obama's character is the worst.

I've never found him an impressive speaker, nor did I find him a gentleman. A gentleman who still unabashedly smokes cigarettes? Is this 1930? For all his cordiality, he also radiated an aura of elitism that further alienated him from the poor.

One of the big charismatic appeals to Bush was "he's the kind of guy you could sit down and have a beer with", but that wasn't a good thing. It's pretty easy to see how Bush/Obama are opposite extremes of the same coin on that appeals front, with intellectuals disliking how moronic he sounded and the uneducated disliking how Obama sounded.

Obama certainly gets praise who what he did in his first four years of office - although like I said those are conditional words considering the Obama-nominated Janet Yeller has been inflating a stock market bubble to proportions not seen since 1929. And, as I said years ago, many of Obama's initiatives were simply Bush reversals, so you couldn't go wrong merely undoing what one of the US' worst presidents had done. Perhaps it wasn't easy, but the outcomes were predictable.

But the four years since, I honestly can't name a single thing Obama's done that matches the accomplishments of his first four years. Even the article I linked largely praised Obama's character - basically saying who he is is more important than what he does - and credits his accomplishments from the first four.
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:11 PM   #3149
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I'm not saying Obama was perfect, nor am I saying we should ignore his flawed. What I'm saying is he's a great man and was a rather solid President. Trump is a morally repugnant human being and, I believe, will be nothing short of a terrible President. And I think the sharp contrast between the two men is part of why Trump concerns me so much.
You cannot argue that Trump is morally repugnant while sweeping Obama's moral failings under the carpet. There's more than just drone strikes on civilians. Cracking down HARD on whistle-blowers like Snowden, the war in the Middle East which is dragging itself onward into its 16th year and has shifted targets once again to ISIS, the continued mass incarceration and disenfranchisement of black males, etc. etc. etc. etc.

His Twitter feed is nicer (and even that's a stretch, reading it is an exercise in "they got outraged over THIS?") but his administration can hardly be considered to be on pristine moral standing. I just don't think there's nearly as much contrast as you think there is.
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Old 12-15-2016, 02:17 PM   #3150
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The three things the Obama Presidency will be remembered for are: Obamacare, the Recovery from the Recession, and deeply entrenched Congressional opposition.
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