09-08-2012, 06:02 PM | #1 |
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A Place for Paedophiles
Just watch the whole video and discuss.
Reaidng through some of the youtube comments, I'm really starting to lose faith in society. I'd like to hear other people's opinion on the situation before I put forth mine. My opinions on things are generally a lot more extreme than people seem to think. |
09-09-2012, 06:06 AM | #2 | |
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Side note (20 minutes in) - laughing at how stereotypical they all look (so many moustaches!)
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09-09-2012, 08:03 PM | #3 |
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Hey I just got here, and this is crazy, but please condense this, I'm really lazy.
(just kidding, got a test and studying, but I don't have 58:00+ to watch that vid).
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09-09-2012, 09:37 PM | #4 |
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Without watching the video...
This sounds like a good thing, because then we could just drop one bomb on them instead of having to use police stings all the time? |
09-10-2012, 03:19 AM | #5 |
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09-11-2012, 11:14 AM | #6 |
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So, they test their "curedness" by re-submitting the patient to similar stimuli as they were put there for? Interesting.
What I don't understand is, why almost all of the patients are there for male-male paedophilia, and grouped up with even more males. Seems more like a problem with homosexuality than pedophilia, or likely to evolve pedophilia into homosexuality instead. For discussion: Is it pedophilia if both participants are underaged? For example, King Tut married, not only his sister, but, she was about 9-10 at the time as well. Why would it be different for an adult with an underaged person, as opposed to both being underaged? Islam permits marriage of girls as young as 12 and sometimes younger. Is this pedophilia? Why or why not? |
09-11-2012, 03:08 PM | #7 | |||
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What I question the most though, is why the definition refers to it as a psychiatric disorder. Is it? Or is it just simply that persons particular taste? Don't get me wrong, I don't think its right to molest underaged children or anything, but I don't understand why pedophilia is classed as a disorder rather than just unusual behaviour. |
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09-11-2012, 03:42 PM | #8 | |||||
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Which is kind of the problem with having the stigma we have associated with pedophilia. Don't get me wrong - actually sexually abusuing a child is terrible under any circumstances, but the sitgma goes too far in that it makes people with that inclination too ashamed to seek help because the moment they admit to anyone "I'm attracted to children" the immediate and ingrained reaction is revulsion. It's cutting off the only potentially good option here - seeking to change. Also means I get to crack out one of my favourite quotes :p; "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right." Our immediate, visceral, emotional reaction - our morals - tell us that someone sexually attracted to kids is a bad person. But acting on that view is doing more harm than good. Quote:
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09-11-2012, 05:25 PM | #9 | ||||||
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If it were a "taste" or "fetish," I could understand it being considered "evil," but if it's a naturally occurring condition (be that condition a disorder or simply different mental wiring), why should it be considered any worse than any other naturally occurring condition? Of course molesting children is wrong, but, what constitutes molestation? If someone was married to a 12 year-old, why should normal marital behavior be considered molestation? And if that sort of behavior normally reserved only between marital partners or "consenting adults" is condoned between unmarried consenting teenagers, why should there be any difference between "adults" and "underaged" to begin with? Quote:
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I personally wouldn't be very pleased with having to be subjected to all sorts of other deviant sexual behavior. And it doesn't even measure the worst of the worst for what the people are there for. And the Polygraph test... polygraph is not reliable at all, yet it's used as an end-all be-all solution. Quote:
If an adult was married to a 12 year old, why would there be an abuse of trust? Abuse, of course, can occur in any relationship, and should be addressed as such, but I don't see any relational difference between an adult and underaged with regards to trust. Does age of consent include parental consent? or must it be strictly age? In Islam with parental consent, and if I'm not mistaken, even on the lawbooks of some US states, with parental consent, underaged (from 12), are allowed to be married. Quote:
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09-11-2012, 06:04 PM | #10 | |||||||||
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As for the other part, whether something is natural or not is entirely irrelevant as to whether it's good or not. Typhoid and smallpox are naturally occuring - pacemakers and dialysis machines aren't. What is relevant is whether it causes harm or not - acting on pedophlic tendencies causes serious mental health issues to the victim. Other sexualities I could name (heterosexuality, homosexuality, asexuality) don't. Quote:
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I'd say it should absolutely not include parental consent, for the reasons above - there's no legitimate reason for them to ever give consent, it will screw the child up, so why let them? Allowing parents to consent to their child being made sick in the head is like allowing people to go round beating their children with a baseball bat at will - in both cases, it's allowing someone to cause serious harm to another person where otherwise there would be none I'm all for letting stupid people do things that harm themselves, but letting them do things that harms someone else? I do not approve.
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09-11-2012, 06:13 PM | #11 |
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Why do you allow yourself to get distracted by his lies again and again, people? >_> Obvious troll is obvious whether he's doing it on purpose or not. You can look up the legal age of consent if you want for yourself but I'm going to save you the trouble if you'd like by telling you that it's 16, 17, or 18 years old in every single one of the fifty states.
In unownmew's own home state of Texas (source: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u...E.21.htm#21.11 ), the legal age of consent is 17. It is considered aggravated sexual assault in his state (source: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u....22.htm#22.021 ) to have sex with someone under the age of 14. No surprises here. As for the legal age of marriage, again, not a surprise, it's even higher: in his home state of Texas (source: http://usmarriagelaws.com/search/uni...ws/index.shtml ), it's 18 years of age. Minors ages 15 to 17 can legally marry but parental consent is required. Parental consent for minors ages 14 and younger is not sufficient to permit legal marriage in Texas. Period.
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09-11-2012, 06:18 PM | #12 |
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This should really go without saying, and is the logical conclusion, but obviously some people need a reminder. Here goes.
*ahem* Homosexuality and paedophillia are not the same thing. Thank you. Now, to what Midge said, I must say I do understand. I have a huge problem with people who victimise the innocent, particularly abusers of children and animals. That said, I know I have to put some of my hatred aside and note when the victimiser is also in need of help. Obviously, the horrible stigma prevents most with those inclinations from seeking help, which builds up into an action that can't be undone. This can be hard to see sometimes, however, and even I, a pacifist, would rather kill a man (or woman) than allow him (or her) to victimise the innocent. And I honestly feel literally ill when I have to kill roaches. Roaches. Now, as long as the parties consent and are of sound enough mind to reasonably do so, I'm fine with it. The legal age of consent thing I am a bit iffy on, and I'll admit I have never really stayed around my age group sexually. I guess what I am trying to say here is that age difference doesn't matter to me, except in the case of one or more parties not being able to give informed consent. And I realise I've gone on a tangent, so. |
09-11-2012, 06:22 PM | #13 | |
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>Talon
A brief scan down the website you linked brings up New Hampshire with the incredibly dodgy minimums of 13 (for girls) and 14 (for boys) under certain conditions, and a few others at 14. Still think your country is backward, but then again so is mine in its own way :p.
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09-11-2012, 06:23 PM | #14 |
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On a side note, and a somewhat relevant one, Louis Theroux sounds like a patronising dickhead like all of the time.
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09-11-2012, 09:05 PM | #15 | ||||||||||
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I have to say this could be debateable. Firstly, what constitutes a mental health issue? And is this issue caused because of the trauma of the "rape/molestation" that occurred, or because of the age of the victim? There's likely not much data regarding the mental health of children who have been married at age 12. And such a marital relationship, could create far different effects than forced molestation for all we know. But of course stigma and bias are never going to allow a serious discussion for that. For your perusal: http://www.nairaland.com/450419/age-...es-paedophilia http://womenofhistory.blogspot.com/2...hildbirth.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_love#Ancient_Rome http://www.roman-empire.net/society/soc-marriage.html http://web.nickshanks.com/history/roman-marriage http://www.jewfaq.org/marriage.htm Quote:
I never meant to imply condoning other forms of sexual abuse, I was simply stating that, is it the "sexual abuse" that causes these mental issues, or, the age? Quote:
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10-21-2012, 01:23 PM | #16 | |||||
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Addressing Kaisap112s post from another thread.
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As well, families have been far more coddling of their children this current and past century than any other. Children learn responsibility and the value of work far later in life than they used to, and sometimes even not at all. Rather than trying to teach the child how to enter adult society and be a functional and mature adult, parents are content with letting their children play around and remain childish for far longer than is good for them in the long run. So, while I agree an 8 year old would not be able to mentally handle marriage, it's not for a lack of mental capability, but rather a lack of training. If an accomplished adult were to marry this 8 year old child, however, (be this a man marrying a young girl, or a woman marrying a young boy), we negate the previously mentioned economic problem of children marrying (being unable to support themselves or their family), as well as we provide an avenue for the child to learn their particular household responsibilities, and grow better and faster mentally in a safe and protected environment, negating the mental challenges of children marrying as mentioned above. Beyond that, we give this "child" a chance to learn and grow together with their lifelong partner, ensuring better compatibility between the two (assuming there was at least some compatibility to begin with), as well as a more unified household, where the two parties grow together, rather than growing apart, which is a leading cause of divorce. Quote:
As stated above, due to certain laws and regulations, it is practically impossible to economically support a family before reaching a certain age (can't work to earn money at some places until you are age 15-16) and without a full education you will be severely disadvantaged in pay. Due to particular government regulations, cost of doing business is increased, which directly increases the average cost of living beyond what a below average earning person can afford easily. This is a problem with society however, and not an inherent disadvantage of age. And also as stated above, mental development of children is being retarded with the excessive coddling they are receiving. They are not learning how to function maturely in society until late in the teens, if at all. They are not being taught effectively how to be responsible, nor are they taught how the "real world" works until they have reached the arbitrary legal age of adulthood. This directly impacts their maturity and ability to capably handle a marriage at younger ages. This again, is a problem with society, and not an inherent biological disadvantage based on an arbitrarily decided legal age. Quote:
You gave the arbitrary age of 8, and I used it for purposes of the discussion, but I personally would not seek out such a young age (In the US, nothing less than 12 has been legal anyway). I recognize the futility of finding a young bride, but if such an opportunity were actually presented, I see no reason why to decline. Though my work would be cut out for me given the mental state of most young teens as I above mentioned, I would be happy to accept her, cherish her above everything, and I'd never seek to offend or harm her in any way. Quote:
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Abuse is abuse, which is the first definition, something which is harmful or derogatory, and unconsensual. Child Sexual abuse is simply creating a double standard where people above a certain age are prohibited while anyone below the age is welcome to do whatever they please. It is ridiculous to permit such actions when both parties are under-aged, but to forbid and criminalize them when one party does not meet some arbitrary "legal age standard for permissiveness." It's like saying 30-year-olds can not engage in sexual contact with anyone 40 years or older. I abhor child abuse, just as I do all forms of abuse, however, abuse is abuse and it retains a strict definition regardless of whether a child is involved or not. Consensual sexual actions within a marriage is not abuse, regardless of the age. And, while I believe that all sexual relations should only be permitted within the bounds of matrimony, if consensual sexual actions between two unmarried 13-year-olds is not abuse, neither can it be considered abuse if one of the unmarried parties is 19-20 years old and it remains 'consensual.' |
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10-21-2012, 03:28 PM | #17 | ||||||||||
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I am not exactly sure how much of this I am going to be able to contain. Pedophilia is a big issue in my family, mostly because my mother was raped when she was a little girl. Now, to cut through some of the bullshit I have seen.
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American child labors laws were put in place so that the growing bodies of kids would not have to be exposed to the rigors of an adult based workplace. Many kids at that time came out with crooked backs and defects that stayed with them their entire lives. Child labor was not good unownmew, and you trying to use it to justify whatever the hell you are justifying is insane. Are you justifying the back-breaking, and deforming, labor just so kids can have families when the mental capacity is not there? You're nuts. Just truly fucking nuts. It is an issue of mental and physical capacity unownmew. Quote:
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But really, an eight year old kid is not going to have any real compatatibility with an adult unownmew. The mental, physical, and emotional levels here are so different. This would be a case of "daddy wants to get rich" more than "I want to marry this person." This argument is illogical. Quote:
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Harmful: In most cases, pedophilia causes mental issues with the child. Look at my mother. She has so many problems, it is not funny. Derogatory: Children cannot understand what sex really is, and, it often makes them feel used or taken advantage of. Which is derogatory. More teen relationships are broken up because of sex than you probably realize. Unconsnesual: A child does not consent to sex the same way an adult does. It is a power situation, and when a women is forced to have sex with someone she does not want to, it is just as bad. Adults=/=Children. And the 30 year old argument is strawmaning it. Stop. Quote:
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10-21-2012, 04:12 PM | #18 |
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I have no interest in this thread other than 'Paedophilia is bad', but for the record, sexual interest in sexually-mature 'children' is called Ephebophilia.
That is all. |
10-21-2012, 07:52 PM | #19 | ||||||||
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Firstly, addressing all the crap from the other thread:
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What is pedophilia? It's defined by an arbitrary age of consent statue that differs in several different countries. I don't disagree that children should be protected. What we disagree on is at what age that protection need no longer apply. Quote:
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Pedophilia = sexual attraction Homosexuality = sexual attraction abuse = violent or otherwise physically or mentally harmful actions against a person without consent. sexual abuse = abuse of a sexual nature, whether in or out of a marriage child sexual abuse = defined by law as someone "too old" doing something to someone of a certain age that someone of that same age is perfectly allowed to do with someone of the same age. marriage = lawful sexual conduct between two people, regardless of societal norms, excluding abuse. I do not approve of any sort of extramarital affairs, whether they be pedophilic or homosexual in nature. I also do not approve of abuse or coercion in sexual encounters. However, if there is love, kindness, understanding, education, and consent, I see no reason to exclude certain ages from marriage. Quote:
And if you really want to get into your slavery argument, Your precious 13th amendment whereby slavery is abolished, does not abolish it entirely. Involuntary servitude is retained as a possible punishment of crimes committed and duly convicted, and voluntary servitude is entirely allowable. Quote:
But if you really want to go religious, Mary the mother of Jesus was a virgin around the age of 12 years old when she was espoused to Joseph the Carpenter (who conceivably was far older than she), and bore her first child. Quote:
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If I was interesting in trolling, I'd do it in a religious forum, or a political forum, not a pokemon forum. I do not find this debate "fun" in any sense of the word. I have only ever been completely serious about sharing my personal opinions. You don't ever see me deriding your opinions on large breasted women Talon, though I personally dislike them. I would have liked to have been shown the same amount of respect. I registered here to this forum because I desired, in all my social inadequacy, to become a part of the community, but the more I open up to people, the more you reject me. Because I never conformed to your world views, I am ostracized and insulted. So, am I really then, the one at fault here? |
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10-21-2012, 08:10 PM | #20 | |||
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EDIT: I'd also like to point out to how your logic boils down to "I really like murder and I am actively trying to defend his desire to murder people and I think that I should should be legally able to murder even if it's blatantly obvious that it hurts people."
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so like historical and biblical precedence is not okay with you when it deals with something involving consenting adults, like homosexuality but when it's kiddysex it's totally legitimate wow it's like you're not even trying anymore Quote:
Frankly, I'm extremely uncomfortable interacting with ANYONE who harbors paedophilic desires, whether they act on them or not. But it's even worse when said person is frequenting a forum about a game marketed and made for children, especially when a large number of its members are well under the age of consent or have been for most of their time here (like myself). If Kuno doesn't finally drop the banhammer on you, I'd like to be the first to ask you to kindly get the fuck out. Last edited by Jerichi; 10-21-2012 at 09:02 PM. |
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10-21-2012, 08:26 PM | #21 | ||||||||
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I'm going to take a shot in the dark here and say that an "arbitrary age of consent" is a much easier gauge of measurement in legal terms than "sexual maturity" or whatever bullshit metric you feel should entitle you to be a cradle robber. Quote:
PS you don't get to fall back on the Bible/Book of Mormon for your justification PPS Reproductive arguments don't count either unless you believe that sexual intercourse is only for the purpose of baby-making and never solely for pleasure PPPS oh fuck who am I kidding you're a batshit insane Mormon Quote:
Basically that logic is full of shit, and so are you. Quote:
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10-21-2012, 08:41 PM | #22 |
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10-21-2012, 09:00 PM | #23 |
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Have i maybe found an argument even unownmew can't lash back on?
No, but its nice to hope.
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10-21-2012, 10:35 PM | #24 | ||||||||||||
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If Tut was not ruling, what was he doing? I thought he died fairly young. Also having riches does not make you good at managing things. Anyway, you've just acknowledged my point. In "this day and age", pedophilia has a massive stigma against it. In a future day and age, I have no doubt that such beliefs will fall away and the old practices will again be used. What makes us so prideful that we think WE are the ones who know better than our forefathers? Is that not exactly what our Forefathers thought of their forefathers as well? Which then of the hundreds of generations of humanity is right? How can you prove that WE are right, and they were wrong? And what then does that say of our future generations? will they somehow be 'more right' than us? But doesn't that completely invalidate our assertion that "We" are the ones in the right? Food for thought. Quote:
Child labor is good, it teaches them responsibility, and maturity. Or did your parents never make you do household chores and cleaning when you were young? What is not good is unsafe and unnatural working conditions. Child labor laws still don't apply to farm labor, so you can't use them as an argument against. Any child can dig a hole, plant a shrub, trim a bush, harvest a plant, why prevent them from getting paid for it? Why should a child be unallowed to be a secretary or database entrant, or a household maid, or a cook? There are plenty of jobs a child can do and get paid for that are safe. Laws need only prevent a child from performing tasks they are not suited for, that are dangerous to their health. You don't have any qualms with permitting children from running lemonade stands do you? That's business management, and it's a great way to teach it to them too. Ever read Rich Dad Poor Dad? That talks about child labor, and minimum wage too. It is not an issue of physical ability, as I have just demonstrated, and yet children are prohibited still. Quote:
Average 8 year old able to run a farm... hmm. I'm 100% certain it was done in the middle ages, what with very often likelihood of the father to have died or sent to war before a child "came of age." It's even more likely that 8 year olds apprenticed under tradesmen for carpentry, milling, and blacksmithing. This may not be 8 years old, and it may not be a true story, but it illustrates the point to a degree. 15 years old and attempting to do all the early morning household chores on a farm No doubt he knew what to do and how to do it long before this age, but he was never required to perform alone before. Does not mean he could not have done so earlier if conditions had required it. Anyway, the fewer experiences in adult life is the entire reason the young ought to marry the older, because the older person is knowledgeable about the world, and can teach their spouse. No one is born an adult, you are right, that is why they need the experiences as soon as possible. Quote:
Adults don't treat children as adults? Since when? I thought the whole learning process was something required to become an adult. If you're not teaching the child to act like an adult, what's the point? The average age of maturity is 15-20? In which age? Today? Because I can assure you it was far different in a different day and age, children were forced to grow up fast, because the family needed every available asset to survive. And simply because this is no longer the case in society, does not mean the practices are inherently immoral. Furthermore, you reveal your ignorance by saying a girl was sold off for the dowry price. The dowry is actually the bride's part of her families inheritance, given with the bride to the groom for homemaking. It was a "bride price" that a man paid for a wife, and the two were never used in conjunction with the same culture. She would not have a clue? I dunno. This girl seemed to know what she was doing. (in how to take care of herself) And this girl, now a wisened old woman, having been a young bride herself, highly praises the practice. What abuse occurred there? Is this moral? Quote:
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I do not mean to say however, that teaching responsibility is not something that parents try to do for their shildren, nor am I saying we should accept r-selection. What I am saying is that society has bred it's children to be generally unfit for marriage at younger ages, while past societies had done so successfully. Quote:
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Hopefully, you understand that while it is my position to support young marriage, and I desire the stigma to descend away from the practice and parents to not immediately dismiss the idea, I am not unaware of the potential dangers, and find all abuse reprehensible and worthy of criminal penalty, and desire parents to take a heavy role in ensuring the protection of their child in all such cases as may arise. Quote:
Derogatory: Is it really? Truly loving and consensual sexual relations, within the bonds of matrimony, is derogatory? Does the partner feel used? I'd argue that depends entirely on how the relations are approached. How well a child understands sex also depends entirely upon how they are educated. I am well aware that sex often destroys teen relationships, however, there is a large difference between these relations. One, it's out of wedlock, so naturally it is derogatory, regardless of the age. Two, teens are often left to their own devices, it's not their fault their parents did not instil in them the values of abstinence, or marriage, and without a protected environment such as marriage, it's only a matter of time before emotions get hurt. Three, both parties are immature, and while this for some reason is legal, it only ensures that feelings will get hurt, whereas if one party is mature, though this is for some reason illegal, it is a far better relational situation where the immaturity of the one party can be guided and corrected by the more mature party. Unconsensual: you bring up being forced to engage in relations, but if it was consensual there was no forcing involved. Neither is coercion an option for true consent. You say it is a power play, but, is that not always the case? Is it not always the more "powerful" in an adult relationship which initiates such relations? Power of course can involve many different things, and a wife denying sex is just as much power playing as a man demanding it. And yet when this sort of power play occurs in a marital relationship, we consider it consensual in all cases except physical rape and abuse, even when it's not. Not every child acknowledges positions of power either, and if one approaches the child as an equal, rather than an adult, there is no power play involved. Really, in all honesty, all the problems that would be problematic in a young marriage are just as common, and just as problematic in adult marriages, so it's kind of hard to say young marriage should not be allowed because it subjects the child to the same exact things they'd be subjected to in an adult marriage. Quote:
Also, I highly doubt that two thirteen year olds do not have in unfair balance of power. No doubt they do not sit down and talk about things maturely and attempt to come together as equals, but rather one party heavily presses the other for the relations before they yield to the pressure, and no doubt most of the time they are worried more about their own pleasure than their partner's. It's far less likely to get this problem in a relationship with at least one mature adult. Last edited by unownmew; 10-22-2012 at 09:13 AM. |
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10-21-2012, 11:07 PM | #25 |
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And it's my belief that current societal accomplishments can coexist with gay marriage. There doesn't need to be any change other than churches allowing it.
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