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Old 07-02-2015, 02:21 PM   #26
Marion Ette
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
How are those comments resign-worthy, and how are they sexist to the point of provoking global outrage in the form of attractive scientists posting selfies online?
So, let's for the moment ignore Talon's point that these comments may have been taken out of context (though this is an important point - just not one I want to address with this post right now). Let's pretend that these comments more or less exist as they are. Are they resignation-worthy? Honestly, I think the desire to be politically correct and the tendency of institutions to bend a bit too readily to media outrage is definitely at play here, and I don't think personally this was sufficient for resignation. That said, are they apology-worthy? Yes, yes, yes.

The "cry when they're criticized" bit is probably the worst of it. Both women and men suffer immeasurably from the insidious and systemic genderizing of emotions. There is this idea that women are the "weaker" sex, so any of the emotions that are inherently "feminine", particularly sadness/crying/vulnerability, are highly discouraged in men while women are just assumed to act this way under stress because of their gender. Not only does this put women in a position where they are often labeled as more volatile, more emotional and "problematic" in more "logic and reason-based" fields, but it is believed that the pressure on men to suppress such emotions may be directly contributing to their higher rates of violent acts, of suicide, and so on. It's a phenomenon that essentially hurts everyone, but when we're looking at this comment, we see the years of struggling against stereotypes that women faced, the idea that women couldn't hold positions of power in any field because they'd crack under pressure, all of those gendered assumptions of emotion that have held us back for YEARS, in subtle, yet persistent ways. Even now, when someone is acting weak (particularly a man), they're called a "pussy", a "little bitch", a "little girl"... Does that sound gendered to you at all?

The "falling in love" and "distracting" bit is a bit more insidious. Sexual harassment is a disturbing reality for a number of women in the workplace, particularly in "male-dominated" fields. We are viewed as sexual objects as opposed to coworkers, and often taken advantage of or dismissed because of it; I have witnessed it firsthand, and more and more, research is showing that systemic sexism in the sciences is very much a part of the daily lives of women (there was a report on sexism in science journalism published recently, IIRC... A related conference and some notes on it can be found here). Now, one could argue that Hunt's comment wasn't in reference to that, necessarily, just that he finds women attractive... but the undercurrents are there; why don't we talk about how men are distracting to women in the nursing field? Why do we feel the need to call women in particular a "distraction" in their respective field? The implications of this are dark, and the joke seems to reference an attitude in the workplace that exists and is incredibly detrimental - we are putting the blame on the woman, essentially, for merely EXISTING in the workplace, rather than having more mature discussions about how to handle being in a workplace where you might find someone else attractive, regardless of their gender. Until you have been on the receiving end of systemic sexism and sexualization, which you literally cannot escape no matter where you go, how you dress or what you do (work, school, the street), it's hard to put yourself in our shoes. Oh, and before anyone says that they've never seen it and it can't be nearly as prevalent as I say... Much as I have a love-hate relationship with the website everydayfeminism, I do like this particular comic they have on the issue.

That said, there's also this idea of "don't shoot the messenger". Yes, the comment is insensitive to the struggles that women face every day (particularly women who are trying to make it in male-dominated fields), but really, the problem is not Hunt himself, but a larger, more systemic issue. We can attack this man all we like, but I think the more prudent solution would have been to step back and say, "Wait... why do these statements make us angry? What's the larger issue at hand, here, and how do we tackle that?"

...That larger issue can't be handled with a single angry tweet, though, so I imagine a number of people decided to go the easier, witch-hunting route. However, the mere fact that Dopple is asking why these comments are problematic implies to me that he's not alone in his ponderings, and this is a conversation that needs to be had for the sake of women's rights to a safe, equal workplace in which they are not judged emotionally and physically by their male coworkers. Rather than the lazy-ass method of attacking people on Facebook and Twitter, we should be discussing these issues on a broader scope and looking for solutions.
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Old 07-02-2015, 06:16 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Loki View Post
If no one voiced their disapproval and merely just heard about it, no one would get in trouble for their stupid actions.

If he made the joke and it merely lead to every woman on the internet reading it and then simply lead to those same women giving him mean looks every time they saw him, then he wouldn't have resigned. He wouldn't have been shamed by thousands of #distractinglysexy posts and the internet wouldn't have exploded on him with that story.

Also, I don't want to know about your creepy attention boners.
I'm not speaking on the topic of the comments or the man. I'm simply addressing the idea that there's some kind of group of people out there running around going "LET'S BE ANGRY AT THIS" or "LET'S GET OUTRAGED AT THAT."

Personally I feel that the comments aren't worthy of the outrage and the fact that people are really stretching for something to hit (if what Talon says is true) means that this will boil over in a few days and nothing will come of it.
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Old 07-02-2015, 06:44 PM   #28
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Do you really think their reactions were that outrageous considering the fact that they didn't have the full story? Leave the anecdote out of it and look at what was published in the article. Do you think they had a right to be upset?
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Old 07-02-2015, 07:17 PM   #29
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It's not okay to call for action for something without the full story! I understand that you used the word "Upset" rather than "Outraged," because you obviously recognize that it's stupid to call for someone's resignation over something that literally is a blurb of a sound bite of a report of a report, but that still doesn't make it okay to make the man resign over them!

Even Marion, who is a pretty analytical person, agreed that the remarks may have been bad, but they weren't anything that could have cost the man his job - the problem persists whether he has his job or not. It's not about making the man lose his job because he made a quip about women in the lab.

And even worse, let's consider the other side of the coin - he makes the quip, totally believes it, then decides "I want my job" and makes some good PR moves and dances while Twitter activists pull the strings of his public apologies. Everyone loves him. But...he's actually a racist and sexist fuck who proceeds to fill his lab with old white men. Twitter will never, ever find out, because it's not quick or public enough for them to notice. Do you know the racial and gender representation of labs across the country?

Or let's say this guy really is sympathetic to women, and he is replaced by a man who privately believes that women belong in the kitchen and does exactly the same thing. We've now taken a step backwards, and Twitter still doesn't find out because the new guy learned from the old guy and keeps his mouth shut.

This is why we need context before we act. I'm a guy who jumps to conclusions and loves attention and that's specifically why I do not rely on sound bites when making my judgments of people.

tl;dr: Are you seriously trying to argue that it's ok for people to be outraged to the point of making a guy lose his job over what is ultimately a sound bite out of context
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Old 07-02-2015, 07:24 PM   #30
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You'll notice I seriously didn't argue anything but "do you think their reaction to the words they read was unwarranted," which isn't an argument so much as a question. This thread was posted regarding the words in the article and not the context. Keep that in mind.
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Old 07-02-2015, 09:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion Ette View Post
The "cry when they're criticized" bit is probably the worst of it. Both women and men suffer immeasurably from the insidious and systemic genderizing of emotions. There is this idea that women are the "weaker" sex, so any of the emotions that are inherently "feminine", particularly sadness/crying/vulnerability, are highly discouraged in men while women are just assumed to act this way under stress because of their gender. Not only does this put women in a position where they are often labeled as more volatile, more emotional and "problematic" in more "logic and reason-based" fields, but it is believed that the pressure on men to suppress such emotions may be directly contributing to their higher rates of violent acts, of suicide, and so on. It's a phenomenon that essentially hurts everyone, but when we're looking at this comment, we see the years of struggling against stereotypes that women faced, the idea that women couldn't hold positions of power in any field because they'd crack under pressure, all of those gendered assumptions of emotion that have held us back for YEARS, in subtle, yet persistent ways. Even now, when someone is acting weak (particularly a man), they're called a "pussy", a "little bitch", a "little girl"... Does that sound gendered to you at all?
Absolutely. In fact I try to abstain from insults/curses that disparage women or minority groups, because I'm conscious of how degrading it could be.

But as you recognize, the chief confusion wasn't that I found his comment insensitive so much as the outrage didn't seem proportional to the level of slight. Mel Gibson and Jim Kramer's careers deservedly died after far more intensely hateful vitriol. Talon's twist makes the story outright horrifying.

Interestingly, I felt like I've had this discussion before, and I have. In philosophy class. Hunt's situation is like a real-life re-enactment of The Human Stain.

In The Human Stain Coleman Silk loses his job as a professor when he accidentally uses a racial epithet. He makes an analogy to students who don't show up for class as "spooks", aka ghosts who show up randomly. "spooks" is an racial slur for black people, and it just so happened Silk didn't know the students who skipped class were black. Silk was fired.

The irony in this is two-fold. Silk was a black man posing as a white Jew. The story suggests his self hatred for his black identity was so strong, he would rather live in disgrace as a white than live as a respected black man (admitting he was black to escape punishment). But it's absurd to think just admitting you're black is an excuse for expressing racism, and the novel portrays it this way to show how petty political correctness is and how that pettiness is easily weaponized.
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Last edited by Doppleganger; 07-02-2015 at 09:22 PM.
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