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Old 02-18-2019, 11:20 PM   #1
Median Dia
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Dragonair A Numbskull's guide To Conquering Others: Advanced Moves And You

Seeing as there's a potential new mechanic currently in the works, I feel like now's as good a time as any to look at a somewhat incomplete one from the Fizzbylution: Advanced Moves. Nowadays, I believe this topic needs to be tackled in two otherwise unrelated topics, so let's get down to it!

Topic One: Advanced Moves and Shops-

A little over a year and a half ago, we did a mass reboot of the game- this is old news, of course. Amid the reboot, a few of the shops had to be rebuilt from scratch, while others barely changed at all- in either case, the majority of them wound up being in a completed state before long.

If the fact that nearly a whole third of the Move Tutor's OP is in red and Strikethroughed, the same does not hold true for it. As such, we have a few choices we need to make here:

1) Do we officiate the service at last, or do we axe it from our game?

2) If we do keep it, do we allow it to be used to teach Advanced Moves unnaturally like the other MTs/ the AMs learned via Bond, or keep them restricted to the original species like the OP suggests?

3) If the service remains, what should the price for it be?

--3.5) If it's decided to let it work with Unnaturals, should they cost more, and if so, by how much?

Assume that in all cases, the pokemon in question retains the 40+ Bond requirement- that aspect's tied to a largely finalized mechanic, and should probably be held as a constant as such.

Personally, I believe like the service should be established, with a starting price of $800 (the cost of unnatural MTs) per natural AV and $1,200 per unnatural (1.5x the cost of the natural). Naturally, other people will feel differently, be it regarding the leniency of the service or the pricing, so I'll leave this one on the floor for discussion.

~ ~ ~

Topic 2: The Advanced Move List-

I've personally been thinking on this subject a fair bit recently, and have come up with a couple suggestions I feel are at least worth sharing.

Add: The Let's GO! Partner Moves

Back when the Kanto Reremakes were still fresh, the subject of these attacks would regularly split people into two distinct camps: those who wanted to see them implemented into FB in their full glory, and those who refused to accept the blatant power creep encroach upon the game- at least, that's how I remember it going down. Folding them into the Advanced Moves list seems like a reasonable compromise: it enables the techniques to be made public, yet requires those who want to use them to jump through a few hoops in order to do so, and makes them come with some hefty opportunity costs for good measure.

It's worth noting that I don't just mean Eevee's seven potent skills when I say this, either- Pikachu's attacks are plenty powerful as well. Even Zippy Zap, which has 40 less BP than every other move on the list, makes up for it by having +2 Priority and being guaranteed to Critically Hit the target, making it incredibly powerful in its own right! Even these three earn their keep.

One last thing of note: like (most of) the other Advanced Moves, these 10 have a distinct restriction on what can learn them in the main games- in fact, they're even more restricted than the other AVs! So they check out on that front as well. Speaking of...

Remove: The Pledges

Ready for some fun statistics? Out of incredible multitude 40+ Bond reward claims we've seen over the past couple years, there have only been three total cases of a Pledge move being chosen. Furthermore, all three instances were tied to a different element, which means that each one was only selected once. You know what move has managed to be chosen more often than any given Pledge out of the Bond system?

Clear Smog, at two cases. Friggin' Clear Smog! That ain't a very common attack in general, ya know!

On that front alone, it seems pretty clear to me that people just aren't interested in these techniques. Sure, they can smack a target for an immense 150 BP worth of damage and net a handy side effect to boot, but doing so requires two uses of different Pledges to pull it off, and the first one ordered never gets to deal its damage if that happens to boot. And if you aren't going for the Combo effect, they're just vanilla 80 BP attacks- why use Water Pledge when Surf is right there? Between the evident impracticality and the fact that the Double Battles the moves thrive in aren't very common in Fizzby, it isn't hard to see why the Pledges would be so widely ignored in the meta- almost everything else in the reward tier is seen as being more practical overall (though I have noticed a distinct lack of Shadow Sheds...).

My call to bump them down to basic MT level isn't just based off of our meta, however. Simply put, they've lost one of the key characteristics of AVs in the main games recently: their species limitations are no longer blurred. The Pledges were starter-exclusive in Gen. 5, which is what earned them their slot in the first place; SuMo then gave the moves to the Elemental monkeys, which was... "fine", since they were designed to be analogues to your starter anyway; and now USUM has given them to silvally*. Silvally doesn't even have any definite connection to the starters! Worse still, it doesn't actually have to be the matching Type to learn a Pledge like it needs to to learn Draco Meteor- it can just stroll in with whatever memory it dang well pleases, and learn these moves with abandon! If that isn't a distinct violation of the Pledges' former exclusivity, I'm not sure what is.

*Silvally is actually bugged in the games to only be able to learn Grass Pledge for some reason, but it was intended to be able to nab all three. Should be fixed come Gen. 8.

Now, if we do drop the Pledges from the AM list, it seems reasonable to give M.M. and Balmund (if/when he returns) some sort of compensation for this change. After all, they had no idea this was a possibility when they made their selections, right?

~ ~ ~

And that's all I've got for the evening. What are you guys' thoughts on these matters?
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:17 AM   #2
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Oh, it's good to see this issue finally being tackled.

Topic 1:

1: Oh, I definitely want this to be a thing. All for making it official.

2: I'm all for allowing them to be taught unnaturally.

3: Tough call to make. The old FB system had them cost a different currency entirely (MT/Egg moves cost a Rare Candy, AMs cost three Heart Scales, for those unfamiliar with the old ways). If we keep it strictly Pokédollars, I'm thinking Med's suggestion sounds good to me.

3.5: I'm actually not sure unnaturally taught AMs should cost extra, personally. Any of them can be taught, naturally or otherwise, upon hitting 40 Bond.

Topic 2: Adding the partner moves and demoting Pledges to standard MT status sounds good to me. Agreed completely- pledge moves are nowhere nearly as popular as the other AMs in FB, nor are they quite as useful (even if I do plan for every single one of Gavin's Pokémon to get at least one of these moves eventually- he's from Orre, double battles are his thing, after all).

All that being said, I do have a few suggestions to bring to the table on this matter.
  • Over in the topic on the potential of FB Gyms, there's talk of earning points that could be used to buy certain rewards. Maybe Advanced Moves could cost a small amount of points as a possible alternative to paying a hefty sum of Pokédollars.
  • While I'm not hating the idea of keeping Bond relevant here, I'm wondering if maybe we could relax this insofar as Pokémon that can learn such moves in the games, making 40 Bond a requirement only for unnatural AMs, in lieu of an increased cost for the unnatural ones.
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Old 02-19-2019, 07:55 AM   #3
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I personally Love this idea, and I would like to see them all get implemented into the Fizzy way.
I kind of like MM's way of implementing Advance moves with the topic of the gyms, having a certain number of points won from the still up in the air Gym Battle topic.

As for the shop, I am okay with having to spend a little more poke cash to learn an adv move, and we should definitely keep the mechanic of the shop.

I don't have much else to add here, so in summary I support the idea, but think we should mix the above suggestions together.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:28 AM   #4
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Chiming in to note that the service is already official and the MT can be used to learn Advanced moves

Currently, that would not extend to unnatural Advanced moves because that would make little sense given that Advanced moves are given out as bond rewards in the same vein as Shadow moves.

That's all I'm chiming in on now, to clear things up.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:26 PM   #5
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Remind me again what the current Advanced Move list is.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heather View Post
Remind me again what the current Advanced Move list is.
Frenzy Plant, Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Draco Meteor, Volt Tackle, and the Pledge moves.
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Old 02-19-2019, 01:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heather View Post
Remind me again what the current Advanced Move list is.
The current list consists of the elemental Hyper Beams (Hydro Cannon, Blast Burn, and Frenzy Plant), the Pledges (Fire Pledge, Water Pledge, and Grass Pledge), Draco Meteor, and Volt Tackle.
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:01 PM   #8
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Yeah, I could see all of these going unnatural. If we've ruled that a Pokemon can learn an unnatural TM, there are a lot of Pokemon who could easily learn these moves within reason: Manectric and Luxray getting Volt Tackle immediately comes to mind.

Bond requirements I'm not going to speak on as I haven't really delved into that very much, but yeah an extra cost is fine, in whatever happens.

I feel like we shouldn't speculate on gym features being involved until that's set in stone, not in the least because Gyms do not really appeal to me.
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Old 02-19-2019, 02:06 PM   #9
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Yes as an aside, please keep discussion based around the current system and not anything that's just a proposal right now.
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