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Old 03-06-2016, 07:02 PM   #976
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So the Republican nominee seems to be between Trump and Cruz. Damnit guys, it's not like the GOP is entirely lacking some acceptable politicians why do you do this.
95% of the GOP is unacceptable, the other 5% are too moderate for the tea partiers and the GOP voters. Like Kasich? My dad thinks he's too moderate and would be devastating to have as the nominee. That's fucked up. This country is fucked up. Jesus, I need to take a break. From reality. Politics have just been making me sick lately.
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Old 03-06-2016, 07:05 PM   #977
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Yeah as a general note to anyone posting in any Debate thread, especially something as personal as politics, if you start feeling really emotional about any of the topics, please just take a break and go do something else for a while. It's not healthy for anyone if you're making yourself sick with anger/fear/disgust over something like this.
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Old 03-06-2016, 07:57 PM   #978
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VGM, I love you. You haven't changed in 14 years and it's great. Sometimes I wonder if I've pulled a Berenstain Bears and shifted into an alternate reality where nothing makes sense anymore. But if VGM, the Cornerstone of the World, is a constant, surely 'tis the same world, just a little more mad.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:48 AM   #979
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VGM, I love you. You haven't changed in 14 years and it's great. Sometimes I wonder if I've pulled a Berenstain Bears and shifted into an alternate reality where nothing makes sense anymore. But if VGM, the Cornerstone of the World, is a constant, surely 'tis the same world, just a little more mad.
I'm not sure if this is a compliment, or not, but... whatever...

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Old 03-07-2016, 09:01 AM   #980
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It's also probably not wise to consistently refer to all Republican candidates as nutjobs and their voter base as ignorant racists. Yes many of them are ignorant racists but then so are many Democrats.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:06 AM   #981
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Honestly the existence of the Republican party is a national embarrassment. With the exception of people like Kasich (who, by the way, is pro-life and anti-gay-marriage and is still considered "moderate") they would literally be close to extremist right in most West European countries, what with not recognizing climate change as a thing among tons of other issues. There cannot be any intelligent debate as long as the Republicans remain this ridiculously far to the right.

And the current President is Democrat and centre-right so.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:34 AM   #982
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It's also probably not wise to consistently refer to all Republican candidates as nutjobs and their voter base as ignorant racists. Yes many of them are ignorant racists but then so are many Democrats.
You're right, except I don't do that. I have consistently called a large swath out perhaps but to generalize an entire group would just be silly. So if you're referring to me in your comment, I'm not sure where you got that idea considering there was a time I once considered myself Republican.
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Old 03-07-2016, 11:37 AM   #983
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>catching some of the news while I'm making coffee
>showing "Democratic delegate count"
>shows the number with Clinton's pledged superdelegates but not Bernie's

Holyyyyyyyyy shit I knew it was bad but its insane how much the media is distorting it.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:02 PM   #984
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>catching some of the news while I'm making coffee
>showing "Democratic delegate count"
>shows the number with Clinton's pledged superdelegates but not Bernie's

Holyyyyyyyyy shit I knew it was bad but its insane how much the media is distorting it.
Yep, and people will keep insisting there's no such thing as media bias, it's all in our heads, tinfoil hats, etc. And then you realize Time Warner owns CNN and made a $600,000 contribution to Clinton's campaign. And then you realize CNN continues to include Clinton's superdelegates showing her lead and then continuously fail to disclose that THEY DON'T COUNT UNTIL THE CONVENTION
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:07 PM   #985
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NO FUCKING WAY.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:15 PM   #986
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Romney really is the evil anime villain who fights on the good side to defeat the even more evil anime villain. If his plan actually works I may die of laughter.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:16 PM   #987
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Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell shit. Because of how Indiana handles unregistered voters for primaries I don't think I'm even eligible to vote in the Republican primary. But man. Man. Romney is easily better than every other Republican running and Clinton. Hard to believe I could even say such things, especially when this is the "binders full of women" man who wanted to defund PBS, disowned RomenyCare, and holds views opposite mine on gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, and just about anything the Bible might touch. But for fuck's sake, he's not Ted Cruz, he's not Donald Trump, and he's a more electable Marco Rubio or John Kasich.

If Romney wins the GOP ticket, I would call it a done. fucking. deal that the Republicans win the presidential election in November. Neither Sanders (too far left for America) nor Clinton (looooooooooooooooooooooool no thank you) could stand a chance against the man.

And can you even imagine if he tapped John McCain to be his running mate?

But seriously, Mitt, please go back to being the guy you were as governor of Massachusetts and never again be the guy you were in 2012. If you can go back to being Governor Romney, we're going to have a survivable next four years.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:16 PM   #988
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My opposition to Trump and Cruz wasn't so much that they're far right wing (in Trumps case only in some respects - he's just a populist, which makes him inherently untrustworthy). It's more that they both come across as idealogues. I'd rather a fairly right wing leader willing to make meaningful compromises with other parts of government than a centrist or left wing one who isn't, tbh. Previous executive experience is a big plus, too.

I feel like electing a single executive leaders requires taking much more into consideration than just "who best matches my ideology" tbh.

>Mitt Romney for President

Not sure how to feel about this honestly, my only exposure to him was the 2012 election so don't know how his Governorship stacks up. If McCain was his running mate that'd be a solid plus in his column though.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:53 PM   #989
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I do agree with Concept, although I probably weigh ideology a little bit more than him. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if I vote for an awesome leader if he's going to do things that are morally repugnant. Same if that person actually stands to be a serious threat to my rights: I fear Cruz as a candidate much more than I fear Trump as a candidate, because, as awful as this is, I'm a white, middle-class American at this point and Trump poses little threat to me. But as a transgender person, I really worry about Cruz as a candidate.

Then again, transgender rights aren't terribly big right now so I might get away scotfree anyways.
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Old 03-07-2016, 01:01 PM   #990
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I do agree with Concept, although I probably weigh ideology a little bit more than him.
For me it depends on the election. In Britain the power of any one party member - even the PM - to fuck things up is constrained by the rest of the party and the cabinet so the competence of any one person is less crucial. We almost always end up with a majority government so willingness to compromise with other parties is often moot, the civil service is pretty fucking good plus most major politicians did their degrees in related areas and are career politicians so there's a limit to how incompetent any truly electable party can really be. I weigh ideology much more heavily in a British general election because how far they can drift on any other factors is limited. With a single executive, the individuals competence and willingness to compromise (which is the simply same thing as a willingness to accept that there are other competent people out there with different ideologies/opinions to you) make much more of a difference than they do in a general party based election, imo.

If Sanders led or was a major figure in a British political party I'd almost certainly vote for him, but in the case of being the single executive I'm not entirely sold yet. Conversely Kasich would be unlikely to lead any party I'd be super excited to vote for (albeit I wouldn't hold any virulent hatred for him either) but seems to do fairly well for me in other categories.

EDIT the first: This talk of Romney makes me wonder if UM is out there somewhere and what he makes of this election. Probably a Cruz supporter.
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Old 03-07-2016, 01:38 PM   #991
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Almost makes you wonder if this was their plan all along. Pitch these nutjobs to the American people and then 1/4th of the way through the election cycle re-introduce Romney to us so that he looks like a far more moderate and reasonable choice than anyone else running.

And holy shit it will work. Brilliant move honestly, though I along with many others will never forget his horrible gaffes, beliefs, and 47% comment. But he will look far more reasonable than anyone else running; hell he probably already made backdoor deals with Cruz and Rubio to get them on his staff when he's elected. They'll broker the convention, swing all their delegates to him, and overtake Trump.

It's a huge game of chess.

Radically crazy (but not so crazy) thoughts:

And then Trump will resurrect the Bull Moose party and the dems will win the election... and if Bernie doesn't get the nomination he will run third party as the New Labor Party and suddenly we have a 4 party election.

Is it bad that I actually really fucking want that to happen? Oh my god, 4 parties... that would be incredible.
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:08 PM   #992
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>Mitt Romney for President

Not sure how to feel about this honestly, my only exposure to him was the 2012 election so don't know how his Governorship stacks up. If McCain was his running mate that'd be a solid plus in his column though.
Most of what I know I've learned secondhand through AK2, but the general idea is this: Mitt Romney was the Republican governor of a hilariously well-known-to-be-East-Coast-liberal state. So when you're a Republican governor of a liberal Democratic state, it stands to reason that you're fairly centrist/moderate. And that's precisely what Mitt Romney was. (Or so I'm told.) One of the hallmarks of Romney's governorship was a state-wide healthcare plan that came to be known as RomneyCare by critics. This "RomneyCare" was copy and pasted by Barack Obama -- as in, it's public knowledge Obama looked at Massachusetts' healthcare program and said, "Hey, yeah! I want that one! " -- and several years later we had the so-called ObamaCare. ObamaCare = RomneyCare = Mitt Romney, a Republican in name, is far more left-leaning and sympathizing towards the poor than the majority of his party.

You might recall that this came up a lot in the 2012 election. Obama kept digging into Romney about ObamaCare really being RomneyCare, and Romney -- knowing the Tea Party would disavow him if they believed him to be the godfather of ObamaCare -- swore up and down, left and right, that he had absolutely nothing to do with either program, or that ObamaCare was radically different from his own health care plan, etc. He wanted absolutely nothing to do with the hallmark of his own governorship. And most independents and left-leaning moderates hated him for this. Romney famously tried too hard to cater to the Republican right in the 2012 election, and it's believed by many to be one of the biggest reasons he lost the election. In trying to prove to the far right that he wasn't the RINO they feared he was, Romney scared off everybody else into Barack Obama's open, loving arms.

I think you'll find this time around that he doesn't play the game that same way. He knows he's up against Hillary "the GOP Antichrist" Clinton, and that no matter what they say they'll do come election day the Tea Partiers and other far-right voters are going to vote for him over either Clinton or Sanders. So he doesn't need to cater to them this go around. He also knows that independents and left-leaning moderates, in a repeat of 2012, are going to be looking to Romney for an escape from Clinton. Instead of scaring them into her open arms ŕ la 2012, he's going to own up to the fact that he's a RINO fairly liberal Republican, that he did some really great liberal things while being governor of Massachusetts, that he's a candidate everyone can get behind. All he has to do is hammer on Clinton's unsavory points -- the Benghazi ambassador's death, the e-mail scandal, and past scandals like Whitewater -- and Romney should have a fairly easy time of it. Every single registered Republican is going to vote for him, and a good chunk of disaffected independents are going to preference him over Clinton.

I'm not saying the guy's a great man, either as POTUS material, as a businessman, or in the privacy of his own home. But he's assuredly more intelligent than Cruz, assuredly more rational and sincere than Trump, and assuredly less corrupt, however corrupt, than Clinton. I can't see him losing to Clinton. The only way it could possibly happen is if it fell down to race lines and Romney didn't secure enough white votes while every single non-white voter voted Clinton. And that's just plain unfair to non-white voters to make that sort of blanket assumption.

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Almost makes you wonder if this was their plan all along. Pitch these nutjobs to the American people and then 1/4th of the way through the election cycle re-introduce Romney to us so that he looks like a far more moderate and reasonable choice than anyone else running.

And holy shit it will work. Brilliant move honestly, though I along with many others will never forget his horrible gaffes, beliefs, and 47% comment. But he will look far more reasonable than anyone else running; hell he probably already made backdoor deals with Cruz and Rubio to get them on his staff when he's elected. They'll broker the convention, swing all their delegates to him, and overtake Trump.
Possibly? I'm still convinced Trump is the Democrats' chess piece intended to ensure a Hillary Clinton win, not the Republicans' chess piece intended to ensure a Mitt Romney win. All signs point to Trump being a RINO who's done everything in his power to sabotage the GOP, remarkably succeeded thus far in a Producers-esque reality, and is trying to get his good friends the Clintons back in the White House. It'd be really weird to think that he is in fact a loyal Republican playing his part as crazy man to pave the way for a Mitt Romney victory.

I will give you, though, that the Republicans likely fielded one serious pick (Jeb Bush) while telling the other to hold back (Mitt Romney) back in September when we were first seeing signs of the redneck public's infatuation with Donald Trump. If Romney had announced his candidacy back in 2015, right now he'd be just another Kasich. They couldn't have known this with 100% certainty at the time (hence why they sincerely fielded Bush), but they could have planned for the dual outcomes, one where Bush manages to win and the other where he does not, and had Romney waiting in the wings in case the second of these two outcomes came to pass.

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And then Trump will resurrect the Bull Moose party and the dems will win the election... and if Bernie doesn't get the nomination he will run third party as the New Labor Party and suddenly we have a 4 party election.

Is it bad that I actually really fucking want that to happen? Oh my god, 4 parties... that would be incredible.
It wouldn't be as incredible as I think you think it would. A four-party runoff would make the armchair odds 3:1 that Sanders loses. And you don't seem to like any of the other three candidates.

As for Trump resurrecting the Bull Moose party, that would be an incredible display of egotism on his part. He's the egotist to do it, of course! But it would be an incredible display of egotism all the same. The Bull Moose party is Teddy Roosevelt's party, now and forever. To claim it as your own when you're nothing at all like Teddy is just ... "disrespectful."
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Old 03-07-2016, 02:29 PM   #993
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>As for Trump resurrecting the Bull Moose party, that would be an incredible display of egotism on his part. He's the egotist to do it, of course! But it would be an incredible display of egotism all the same. The Bull Moose party is Teddy Roosevelt's party, now and forever. To claim it as your own when you're nothing at all like Teddy is just ... "disrespectful."

I know, I forgot to add the part where he would completely offend the entire country in the process by doing so... but that's Trump for you. Which is exactly why he would do that. Although, I was admittedly being slightly tongue in cheek, but also saying it as a "don't be completely surprised if he pulled something like that"
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Old 03-07-2016, 05:12 PM   #994
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Bloomberg just announced that he will not run for president for fear of splitting the vote and getting Trump elected.
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Old 03-07-2016, 06:39 PM   #995
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Disappointing, but his reasoning makes sense.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:19 PM   #996
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This is the best election of my lifetime. Nothing else comes close to this level of interesting and fun.

That said, you guys really need to reign in the optimism for Romney's candidacy. If you look past that he's charismatic and courteous (i.e., presidential) his gubernatorial record and failed campaign in 2012 are major liabilities for him waging a successful campaign to be re-nominated. Not to mention, "charismatic and courteous" seem to be major liabilities in this election, as does having any connection to the Washington or party establishment.

What Romney is, entering this late, is the Republican nominee in case of a brokered convention. Romney is easier to sell as a candidate to an angry American voter base than Rubio or Kasich. As Talon points out, no matter how much the Tea Party hates Romney, they will never vote for the Anti-Christ. Going in as the brokered selection is the only real way Romney ever had a shot at repeating as the nominee.

Romney only becomes a factor if Trump fails to win the election outright. If he does, the Republicans can't really do anything but curse under their breaths, since the voters spoke. He has no prayer of overcoming Trump or Cruz in the delegate race right now.
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Old 03-07-2016, 08:22 PM   #997
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Oh no of course he doesn't, but he's not trying to. Jeb Bush tried and failed, so I think Romney is ultimately going for the other approach.
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Old 03-07-2016, 09:45 PM   #998
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Americans on why only the educated should be allowed to immigrate to America:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportsblog Poster
Medical doctors shouldn't be forced to remain in their third-world country to care for the poor. We might as well exile our college graduates to Somalia or Calcutta.
The context: one of America's major problems with immigration is for legal immigrants, you face a tremendous barrier to coming into this country without an education. Demand for population-dependant services, like medicine, and privatised healthcare means doctors in the US are rich compared to other countries, incentivizing them to move to the US.

So there's a recurring problem of brain drain - countries that most need doctors, i.e. third world countries with medical schools, lose almost all their graduates to foreign countries, especially the US, where the graduates can become rich. Unless we're talking about a command government like the PRC or a junta, it's difficult to police this kind of thing. You can cross-apply this logic to any education-intensive profession.

This really isn't any different from old-school imperialism. Exploit a poor country of its resources, in this case human labour, and give nothing in return.

In spite of what people say, tomato picking is a valuable job and NOT just because Mexicans are willing to go for sub-subsistence wages to do it. It's a dirty job college educated kids would never do.
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:03 PM   #999
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The context: one of America's major problems with immigration is for legal immigrants, you face a tremendous barrier to coming into this country without an education. Demand for population-dependant services, like medicine, and privatised healthcare means doctors in the US are rich compared to other countries, incentivizing them to move to the US.
As someone who works in Immigration, I can tell you that it is actually still pretty hard for people with an education to immigrate to the US. Even with a Bachelor's degree, unless you already work for an employer with both a US company and a foreign subsidiary or branch, you have to be sponsored by a US company, who will then enter your name in a yearly lottery (which costs thousands of dollars in legal and filing fees) out of which maybe a fourth of those people will be picked in order to be able to get a work visa. Even then, you only have 5-7 years of work before you have to start the lengthy and not necessarily guaranteed Green Card process, and if you're from a country like China or India, you might be waiting a full 10+ years to actually get it from beginning to end. Even people with advance degrees such as an MD still struggle to get these work visas due to the licensing requirements and other hurdles designed to make it difficult for foreign doctors to take US jobs. The only exception (and I think it's somewhat of a historical one now that we have much less of a nursing crisis than we did a while ago) is for nurses, for which there was a special visa.
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Old 03-08-2016, 08:13 PM   #1000
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Holy shit that is a very awful system.
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