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Old 11-14-2018, 11:36 PM   #4826
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I like that Z-Moves can get around some things like abilities and Protect but HATE that you can't Taunt Z-Geomancy. It's essentially a wasted move.
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Old 11-19-2018, 04:10 AM   #4827
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A little food for thought - how much did Mega Evolution make lives better for the Pokemon's evolutionary line? I compiled how much tier improvement each line with its Mega Evolution, in Gen VII (untiered > AG, 7 total steps):

No improvement: 10 Pokemon
+1 Tier: 8 Pokemon
+2 Tiers: 9 Pokemon
+3 Tiers: 13 Pokemon
+4 Tiers: 6 Pokemon
+5 Tiers: 2 Pokemon
+6 Tiers: 0

/48 Megas

How I interpret this:

0-1 tiers: no real improvement (or within error/meta environment)
2-3 tiers: solid
4-5 tiers: godly

At first blush, it looks like Mega Evolution helped most Pokemon: 37.5% had no meaningful improvement, while 62.5% had meaningful jumps. However, there is a caveats:

Five Megas were banned to Ubers, with four base already Uber, so eight of these Megas had no impact on the standard meta. Gengar, Lucario, Metagross all had +2 Tiers, and Mega Kangaskhan had the sole +5. If you take all these Ubers away,

No improvement: 7 Pokemon
+1 Tier: 6 Pokemon
+2 Tiers: 6 Pokemon
+3 Tiers: 13 Pokemon
+4 Tiers: 6 Pokemon
+5 Tiers: 1 Pokemon
+6 Tiers: 0

/39 Megas

This actually improves things a bit, with 33% of Megas having no impact. But at the highest level of play, only four Pokemon really experienced a rags-to-riches dream come true:

Mawile
Pinsir
Sableye
Lopunny

So if OU is your benchmark for success, there are 20 OU Megas. 5 were already OU or BL in their base form and 4 were UU or BL (so usable in OU). So we're functionally looking at 11 Pokemon actually being relevant to the metagame.

I think that's a significant amount in a game where a single Pokemon can warp the meta, but it's probably less than what people believe, thinking most Megas had an impact. That's kind of true, but it was, largely, a small impact.
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Old 11-19-2018, 04:17 AM   #4828
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What about Megas like Mega Scizor, who don't represent a Tier change but did have a major impact on the metagame for a significant period of time?
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Old 11-19-2018, 09:01 AM   #4829
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I didn't examine viability at all, and in fact rounded up for a lot of the BL cases.
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Old 11-22-2018, 04:55 AM   #4830
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Mega Aerodactyl is broken in LGPE OU:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/g...goou-824436282
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/g...goou-824438273

With 150 speed, nothing outspeeds, not even Mega Alakazam - the best they can do is tie. It cannot be OHKO'd by anything sort of Pikachu-S Zippy Zap without getting in a hit first. And since it resists Quick Attack, Mega Aerodactyl is guaranteed to get in a few hits and set up rocks before going down.
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Old 11-27-2018, 01:50 PM   #4831
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Mega Sceptile might be neutral to Fire, but it still crumbles before Heatran's Magma Storm.

This got me to look at Mega Sceptile's typing, and...I think Grass/Dragon is quite possibly the worst typing possible for Grass OR Dragon. :/

You trade a weakness for Fire with a weakness to Dragon/Fairy, and throw in a x4 weakness to Ice.

Meanwhile...Grass/Dragon doesn't gain any new resists, it merely doubles down on what it already resisted (Electric, Water, Grass).

The coup-de-grace is giving Mega Sceptile Lightning Rod, which gives it Thunder Wave immunity but also removes one of its x4 resistances, making the typing benefit redundant.

Why GF hate Sceptile so much?
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Old 11-27-2018, 06:15 PM   #4832
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The way I see things, it isn't that GF hates sceptile- rather, I believe that Mega Sceptile is a case where they prioritized flavor over function.

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Design-wise, it combines the general edginess added by Mega Evolution with bringing its color palette more in line with grovyle's (which notably had a group of people who preferred its design over the evolution's), while adding a new design element by weaponizing one of the lizard family's more ridiculous self-defense mechanisms and making that weird tree-tail flow better with the design as a whole. Visually, it's an overall improvement that ties the line together (unlike Mega Blaziken, which has few visual cues from torchick and combusken), and draws from real world lore in a way that makes sense and is actually represented in the in-game animations (unlike Mega Swampert's arm jets, which aren't shown in action in-game an doesn't make sense, since there aren't any salamanders or axolotls with pistol shrimp-esque capabilities, at least as far as I'm aware).

Similarly, the idea to make it part Dragon wasn't something that came out of nowhere just because Instant Awesome: Just Add Dragons; the line has been in the Dragon Egg Group since day 1. This has a couple design aspects to it: first, it pulls more from its lizard basis, which is typically associated with both dragons and dinosaurs- the latter of which is frequently considered to be 'close enough' to Dragons in Pokemon throughout the years (Lance uses an aerodactyl, Champion Iris uses and archeops, tyrantum is actually both for some reason...); second, it ties sceptile to a bit of Dragon lore GF has been pushing recently: the fact that some creatures have draconic blood, but need an external source of energy to awaken it (as seen in Mega Ampharos, Alolan Exeggutor, and Ultra Necrozma).

Sure, the Dragon Typing greatly hinders Mega Sceptile's defenses from a mechanical standpoint, but that may be part of the point- from the beginning, the species' primary selling point was that it bucked the stereotypical Grass stat spread by prioritizing swift killing over bulk, so it doesn't actually care about its durability. In fact, out of the 100 base stat points it gets from Mega Evolving, only 10 of those are put into its Defenses- everything else went into its Speed and offensive stats! Offensively, Dragon gives it neutral STAB against every Type except Steel, which helps it get those kills it wants a fair bit (and especially hates on fellow Dragon Sweepers). Granted, there might be better Types to help with the offensive presence for Grass, but I doubt there's all that much of a disparity anyway.

Lightning Rod's additions to the overall design are subtle on both the mechanical and flavorful aspects. Thematically, it's tied to the fact that sceptile's tree-like tail is now more focused on that its arm blades. Trees, especially lone ones, tend to act like natural lightningrods, which is why it is ill-advised to hide under one during a thunderstorm. Sceptile's essentially using the Ability the same way raichu does, albeit a tad superficially. The mechanics are a bit more readily tellable, but not by much. Yes, Mega Sceptile doesn't care about the defensive utility at all, but that's not what it wants out of the Ability either- because it isn't a Ground Type, its Special Attack gets boosted whenever Lightning Rod activates. Where Alolan Marowak grabs Lightning Rod for the free immunity, Mega Sceptile takes it to boost its killing power! As a side effect, the Ability also makes it so that sceptile is immune to all but four sources of Paralysis in the game (Body Slam, Tri Attack, plain!Secret Power, and Bounce), which helps it evade the one status effect that actually cripples it! Admittedly, the Ability still winds up being a bit situational (not very many people are going to be keen on using Thunder/bolt if they know you have an already-Mega Evolved sceptile in the wings), but its going to be very happy whenever you do manage to get it that free Sp. Attack buff!

That being said, I feel like the biggest thing putting Mega Sceptile in the List of Mechanical Mediocrity is its stats. Of the 100 points it got from the powerup, 35 of them went to stats it doesn't actually care about: the afore-mentioned 10 in its Physical Defense, and 25 in its Physical Attack. Yep, a quarter of its buff went to its lowest offence! Thematically, this makes sense- Leaf Blade, which is currently a Physical attack, was originally the line's signature attack, so it makes sense that it would still be able to use it effectively- but it's a massive let-down on the competitive scene. Base 145 Sp. Attack really isn't all that great by Mega standards without the Lightning Rod boost or Baton Pass support, and a mere 5 points to its base Speed would be enough to let it Speed Tie with Mega Alakazam and Mega Aerodactyl (as well as electrode and deoxys' Normal and Attack forms, but those still have their item slots available). Sure, giving it those 5 points in Speed and putting the other 20 points in Sp. Attack (leaving the Defense intact because that's still marginally useful) wouldn't be anywhere near enough to make it top tier by any means, but it'd help make it a little more effective at the thing it wants to do most.


At the end of the day, Mega Sceptile is a flavorful and awesome pokemon in pretty much every format except Competitive. And honestly, that's fine- on a meta level, it's designed to be a crutch for in-game, where its weakness ultimately don't matter. Not every Mega Evolution has to be as ridiculous as gengar and kangaskhan to be useful somewhere, after all!
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Old 11-27-2018, 06:28 PM   #4833
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In fairness, Mega Sceptile is considerably better than normal Sceptile.
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Old 11-28-2018, 12:47 AM   #4834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Median Dia View Post

Of the 100 points it got from the powerup, 35 of them went to stats it doesn't actually care about: the afore-mentioned 10 in its Physical Defense, and 25 in its Physical Attack. Yep, a quarter of its buff went to its lowest offence! Thematically, this makes sense- Leaf Blade, which is currently a Physical attack, was originally the line's signature attack, so it makes sense that it would still be able to use it effectively- but it's a massive let-down on the competitive scene. Base 145 Sp. Attack really isn't all that great by Mega standards without the Lightning Rod boost or Baton Pass support, and a mere 5 points to its base Speed would be enough to let it Speed Tie with Mega Alakazam and Mega Aerodactyl (as well as electrode and deoxys' Normal and Attack forms, but those still have their item slots available). Sure, giving it those 5 points in Speed and putting the other 20 points in Sp. Attack (leaving the Defense intact because that's still marginally useful) wouldn't be anywhere near enough to make it top tier by any means, but it'd help make it a little more effective at the thing it wants to do most.
This isn't nearly as bad as as you make it out to be - with that horrible defensive typing, Sceptile isn't going to be winning awards for bulk even with a perfect stat spread. But with 110 Attack, it can run mixed or even a physical set due to its Swords Dance access. So like Mega Rayquaza, Mega Sceptile can drop a special nuke then continue to attack on the physical side. It learns Earthquake, so that gives it the weapon against Steel types that otherwise wall it.

If there's a problem with the movepool, it's that it doesn't learn Draco Meteor. DM compliments Leaf Storm very well and it doesn't learn it for who knows why.

The real issue is Lightning Rod. Of the 20 Megas introduced in ORAS, even for the "filler" Pokemon, the vast majority got stat boosting abilities:

Offense/Damage

1. Beedrill - Adaptability
2. Steelix - Sand Force
3. Sharpedo - Strong Jaw
4. Camerupt - Sheer Force
5. Altaria - Pixilate
6. Glalie - Refrigerate
7. Salamence - Aerliate
8. Metagross - Tough Claws

Offense/Accuracy

9. Pidgeot - No Guard

Offense/Coverage

10. Lopunny - Scrappy

Speed

11. Swampert - Swift Swim
XX. Blaziken - Speed Boost

Defense

12. Sableye - Magic Bounce
13. Diancie - Magic Bounce
14. Slowbro - Shell Armor
15. Rayquaza - Delta Stream
16. Gallade - Inner Force
17. Latios - Levitate
18. Latias - Levitate
19. Audino - Healer
20. Sceptile - Lightning Rod

Sceptile really stands out, as the only offensive Pokemon to receive a new defensive ability. Latios/Latias still had Soul Dew, Rayquaza could hold an item.

And because Sceptile is a starter, this makes its bad ability stand out all the more, since it's always been compared against Blaziken/Swampert and its Mega Form is arguably just as inferior (perhaps more, since it uses the Mega slot). Immunity to Thunder Wave? Diancie and Sableye are too...

Sucky!
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Old 11-29-2018, 12:45 PM   #4835
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Honestky you say Mega Sceptile getting LightningRod is a waste but in metas where the thing can acquire other abilities (AAA, Balanced Hack), it largely doesn't because TWave/General Electric immunity just gets that much use in competitive. Paralysis is one of the primary forms of Speed Control being one of the easiest to use, and being able to No-Sell the most viable means of setting it and at the same time boosting is pretty big.
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Old 11-29-2018, 05:41 PM   #4836
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I don't know what AAA is like, but Hackmons allows Megas, Primals, Ultras and Ash's to battle in their transformed state without needing to meet any conditions. That completely changes the cost/benefit equation, and for that reason Hackmons values typing, BST and bulk above almost everything else.

Like you could run Mega Sceptile in those environments, but since the whole appeal is they can run any ability, why on earth would you go there just to keep its original one?
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Old 12-01-2018, 12:56 PM   #4837
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Because you can slap Electrify on something fast and then let it keep Lightning Rod and have it be good at special attacking because no movepool restrictions. I'm sure i have a match in here where I fucked up a sweep with it solely because i was greedy and flamethrower'd a flash fire bait mega abomasnow when i had the boosts that straight spacial rend would have killed anyway.
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Old 12-20-2018, 12:01 PM   #4838
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Remember that guy in BW who had six Pokemon on his team, and they were all strong? Some fellas went and did a simulation of what would happen if that guy challenged Champion Trace in LGPE.
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Old 12-24-2018, 07:39 AM   #4839
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Old 12-30-2018, 05:44 AM   #4840
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I'm not sure how relevant this might be for the future, but here's a little M21 spoiler (Gen VIII?): Abilities can now become held items.

It was kind of lost in the plot of the movie and wasn't something I picked up on at all on the first watch. The anime has trended toward foreshadowing future GameFreak developments, and this would certainly be very very big if retained.
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Old 12-30-2018, 01:54 PM   #4841
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...that's strange. I'm not really sure how that would work for like, the majority of abilities. But sure! Why not!
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:04 PM   #4842
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You hear how Zygarde was banned? Well, there's a new rule on Smogon: Ubers is overpopulated, so if someone immigrates into Ubers, someone has to emigrate to AG.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:20 PM   #4843
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Except...there's no evidence that's the case.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:25 PM   #4844
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You missed my sarcasm!

The Zygarde ban was widely regarded as a bunch of bored players trying to shake things up. That they're even suggesting of suspect testing Ultranecrozium Z (which is way beyond the Zygarde suspect) is evidence of the same sense of apathy.

If Ultranecrozium Z is actually suspected, it'll be banned due to mob mentality.
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Old 01-20-2019, 04:29 PM   #4845
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Fair point, I did indeed!
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Old 01-23-2019, 02:18 PM   #4846
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I'd say they should just do the suspect already for the sole reason that the thread is literally an OU suspect discussion thread with different discussion criteria at this point. Like, if it weren't for the OP, I'd legit think the Ultranecrozium suspect had already been declared walking into that thread.

The problem is that after the mega gengar/stag fiasco I wager that not many trust the Ubers brass, and honestly? I can't blame them too too much for it. Still, no point in establishing this council or whatever if the crowd is going to do their job for the like this.
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:35 PM   #4847
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Quote:
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The problem is that after the mega gengar/stag fiasco I wager that not many trust the Ubers brass, and honestly? I can't blame them too too much for it. Still, no point in establishing this council or whatever if the crowd is going to do their job for the like this.
What's the stag fiasco?

Until this, I didn't really have any reason to doubt the Ubers council, since it's a very easy metagame to manage.

But I feel like a lot of this suspect is a proxy for a greater resentment with Gen VII OU, which, let's face it, is widely played and just as widely disliked. What makes Gen VII OU good is what most competitive battlers hate. And Gen VIII is just going to be more of the same, which is something this dissatisfied players recognize on some basal level.
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Old 01-24-2019, 08:51 PM   #4848
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Ubers tried to ban mega gengar, failed, then tried to ban shadow tag and gotv called out
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Old 01-24-2019, 11:36 PM   #4849
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When was that? Recently, or years ago?
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:45 AM   #4850
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A few years ago
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