UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-16-2016, 12:12 PM   #3001
Connor
Flashbacker
 
Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 9,068
Fucking well said.
Connor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 12:14 PM   #3002
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Waiting eagerly to hear from our local Trump supporters why a Muslim registry (currently being discussed for those not following the news) is totally okay and not at all setting a dangerous precedent/a gross violation of constitutional rights/not a good reason to point out Trump's looking kind of Hitler-y with moves like this.


And before anyone points out "Well, the courts would overturn it or rule it unconstitutional" - you're talking about something like this possibly going all the way to the Supreme Court that he is probably going to be crafting.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 12:28 PM   #3003
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
Waiting eagerly to hear from our local Trump supporters why a Muslim registry (currently being discussed for those not following the news) is totally okay and not at all setting a dangerous precedent/a gross violation of constitutional rights/not a good reason to point out Trump's looking kind of Hitler-y with moves like this.
Challenge accepted. First, it's not actually setting any precedent. Obama also kept this allegedly discriminatory system in place 3 years into his first term. Like with the incoming assault weapons ban, Trump only has to revive a policy that the US is already familiar with.

Secondly, did you just make another random Trump comparison with Hitler. It doesn't even make sense in this example, because most people were emigrating out of Nazi Germany, not immigrating in.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 12:36 PM   #3004
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Secondly, did you just make another random Trump comparison with Hitler. It doesn't even make sense in this example, because most people were emigrating out of Nazi Germany, not immigrating in.
Let's be real. This would eventually extend to all muslims in the US. If you think it wouldn't, look at the beliefs of the people drafting this. Some of them are fucking conspiracy nutters who actually think Obama is still secretly a muslim, and that's on the light end of the spectrum.

Fascism starts somewhere. Incremental slippery slope bullshit and whatnot. This? Press must re-register for credentials (yeah, good luck NYT)? Mass deportation (promising 3M deported right away, even though that's not physically possible)?

Am I being alarmist? I don't even fucking know anymore. This is how this shit starts. Will you be okay with it in three years from now when the scope of these sort of things have been expanded to include more things/people?
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 12:37 PM   #3005
Connor
Flashbacker
 
Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 9,068
Hitler is a very bad example to draw with regards to any current day leader. The conditions which actually allowed Hitler to come to power and thrive in the manner that he did were incredibly specific to the time period.

It's also massively emotive. Similar to the thing I raised earlier about the right labeling anyone left "commies" and the left labeling anyone right "fascists".
Connor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 12:44 PM   #3006
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Secondly, did you just make another random Trump comparison with Hitler. It doesn't even make sense in this example, because most people were emigrating out of Nazi Germany, not immigrating in.
How does the comparison not make sense? It immediately calls to mind the Star of David badges Jews were forced to wear in Hitler's Germany. And what does emigration have anything to do with this? Trump is proposing that Muslims already in America be registered, not migrants. Hitler registered Jews already in Germany, not migrants. Emigration, immigration, makes no difference, has no relevance here. Why even bring it up?

Religious beliefs are highly tailored to the individual. Just as not all Christians are the same even in a broad sense (e.g. Catholic vs. Baptist), never mind in an individual sense (e.g. Lafayette Indiana Baptist No.733 vs. Lafayette Indiana Baptist No.734), neither are all Muslims the same. You've got your orthodox and your secular, you've got your Sunni and your Shi'ite, you've got your militant and your pacifist, so on and so forth. To say nothing of teenagers and young adults whose religious views shift on a yearly if not weekly basis.

In the name of security, a Muslim registry forsakes the freedoms of far too many citizens. And it paves the way towards similar registries for other citizen classes.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 12:48 PM   #3007
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor View Post
Hitler is a very bad example to draw with regards to any current day leader. The conditions which actually allowed Hitler to come to power and thrive in the manner that he did were incredibly specific to the time period.

It's also massively emotive. Similar to the thing I raised earlier about the right labeling anyone left "commies" and the left labeling anyone right "fascists".
I'm not labeling his voters fascists, dammit. I'm saying that the implications of some of these decisions are beginning to look more and more fascist.

I have avoided making comparisons to Hitler for a long-ass time. I was waiting to see just what would happen. But this is how this shit starts. We ALREADY HAVE conditions and a climate of our own that could lead to similarities. What's next, muslims start wearing a crescent moon pin on their badge or their state IDs? We already have panic and fear of Islam spread throughout the country. If it's "for the good of the people" and "for our safety" then as long as it doesn't personally affect them, people will eat this shit up and be fine with it.

This is how it fucking starts. I'm livid, and to not see the potential slippery slope here is insane to me. Again, go read up on the absolutely batshit crazy things Frank Gaffney has in his history.


We shouldn't even be having this goddamn debate. This shouldn't even be on the table. We shouldn't even be talking about this right now.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 01:00 PM   #3008
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
Am I being alarmist? I don't even fucking know anymore. This is how this shit starts. Will you be okay with it in three years from now when the scope of these sort of things have been expanded to include more things/people?
Let's cross that bridge when we get to it, m'kay?

You've been the biggest doom drummer in this thread by far, even though you are threatened very little personally from Trump's government.

By contrast, there are people in this thread more at risk from protectionism, isolationism and a rollback of progressive tolerance. They face an uncertain future, and so are hoping for the best. You are doing your darndest to Debbie Douse those dreams down into despair!

Spoiler: show



I'd either take a more optimistic approach to the future until the bad things, if they are pending, actually happen.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 01:10 PM   #3009
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Yeah, I'm a straight white male. They'd come for me last and my privilege is basically as high as it gets, no doubt. That doesn't mean I'm not frightened, and that I'm not frighted for so, so many of my friends that could be, and are already in some cases, affected by this.

Sure, maybe I'm a pessimist, but it's so hard to not be when you hear some of the rhetoric, and compare it to the annals of history. I want to be optimistic. So far, I have been given very little reason to be.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 01:15 PM   #3010
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
How does the comparison not make sense? It immediately calls to mind the Star of David badges Jews were forced to wear in Hitler's Germany. And what does emigration have anything to do with this? Trump is proposing that Muslims already in America be registered, not migrants. Hitler registered Jews already in Germany, not migrants. Emigration, immigration, makes no difference, has no relevance here. Why even bring it up?
The article I linked clearly refers to "immigrants", a catch-all for people moving in to the country and those here waiting to be naturalised. These are people who want to move in to the United States.

Meanwhile, the Nazis tried their best to kick the Jews out of Germany. Trump isn't restricting immigrants from Muslim countries...yet. Nor is he kicking Muslims out of the country...yet.

Your Star of David example is interesting and while I do remember gays wearing pink ribbons (?) in Nazi Germany, this isn't something that immediately comes to mind when I hear about the database. It's not a 1:1 correlation (Trump isn't forcing all Muslims to wear hijabs or scarlet letters) nor does it really justify reaching for the low-hanging cliche of another Trump-Hitler comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
In the name of security, a Muslim registry forsakes the freedoms of far too many citizens. And it paves the way towards similar registries for other citizen classes.
Refer to that link again; the Bush system already categorized other citizen classes. It wasn't just Muslims. We're looking at status quo here - Trump only has to reinitialize the policy that currently exists by adding countries back to it. He doesn't have to do anything new!
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 01:16 PM   #3011
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 7,030
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
I'm not labeling his voters fascists, dammit. I'm saying that the implications of some of these decisions are beginning to look more and more fascist.

I have avoided making comparisons to Hitler for a long-ass time. I was waiting to see just what would happen. But this is how this shit starts. We ALREADY HAVE conditions and a climate of our own that could lead to similarities. What's next, muslims start wearing a crescent moon pin on their badge or their state IDs? We already have panic and fear of Islam spread throughout the country. If it's "for the good of the people" and "for our safety" then as long as it doesn't personally affect them, people will eat this shit up and be fine with it.

This is how it fucking starts. I'm livid, and to not see the potential slippery slope here is insane to me. Again, go read up on the absolutely batshit crazy things Frank Gaffney has in his history.


We shouldn't even be having this goddamn debate. This shouldn't even be on the table. We shouldn't even be talking about this right now.
By all means attack policies but can we try to avoid the inflammatory labels and comparisons? Whether you think they're accurate is entirely besides the point here. For any grouping or position or candidate or whatever else, attacking with inflammatory shit like that will just make people (even those who're just weak supporters) dig their heels in and become more entrenched and if anything adopt more extreme positions just for the sake of opposing the person they feel is attacking them - and attacking their candidate in this kind of manner feels like a direct attack on them, whether you intend it that way or not being irrelevant.

Basically, either we get to vent moral outrage and feel superior or we get to have a chance at having constructive debates on issues where people might change their minds (whether that be merely in UPNs debate thread or when campaigning or protesting). We do not get both.The difference between "I think this policy is bad because discrimination on religious grounds" and "I think this policy is bad because discrimination on religious ground and also HITLER" is the difference between a constructive debate and the kind of childish shouting match people like me so often end up in (because I am a childish, angry man who is not a good role model :p).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 01:26 PM   #3012
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Fuck's sake. I'm not calling his supporters these things. The cast majority of his supporters are just Republicans who were going to vote for whoever the Republican nominee was, period. They're almost all good people at their core. I'm sorry if they feel like attacking their candidate is attacking them, but that's not my problem, that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm going to call out garbage when I see garbage, period.

But you bet your ass I'm making comparisons to what Trump himself and his cabinet are doing because if we don't call out these things that are very clearly steering towards a dangerous path to take, and compare them to those that have similar trajectories and goals based on historical precedents, things we have already seen happen and the origins that led to their ultimate outcome, then when do you start? When do you say "Hey guys, this doesn't look so great, look at history and compare it to now" - do you wait until muslims are already wearing crescent moon badges before you open your mouth, before you speak out? When do you stop holding your tongue? If history has taught us anything, if it even looks like shit, or resembles it in anyway, or has the faintest smell of shit, we fucking call it out before it can actually become full-on shit.

I want to be proven wrong. I want to be wrong on this. I have said over and over, I hope for all of our sakes that Trump is a good President. Why would I hope he is a bad one? He's President for all of us now. The best possible outcome is he is a good one, and I hope to god he is. But right now, I am not convinced - I'm worried.

Edit: I apologize if I am being aggressive, I'm not trying to be. I'm frustrated and worried, perhaps I'm wrong and you are right in that it is too much. Regardless, I hope people can understand where my thought process is coming from here. And yeah, maybe I just need a Xanax, who knows.

Last edited by deoxys; 11-16-2016 at 01:38 PM.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 01:52 PM   #3013
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 7,030
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
>because if we don't call out these things that are very clearly steering towards a dangerous path to take, and compare them to those that have similar trajectories and goals based on historical precedents, things we have already seen happen and the origins that led to their ultimate outcome, then when do you start?

Simple; you don't do the comparison part, imo It's always going to be counterproductive. Imagine for a moment this was the 1930's and we therefore didn't have a Hitler comparison to make. Would you be completely unable to find a way to explain why you think the policy is bad? No? Then you're capable of criticising it now without the comparison. That's all the point I'm trying to make; that if you can criticise it just as effectively without the comparison - and the comparison is going to serve to make people dig their heels in and feel attacked in a way not using it won't - then it's not worth using. Things are wrong or right in and of themselves, not because some historical figure we demonise or venerate (respectively) did them.

Honestly I just find labelling (fascist/fascism etc) and comparisons like this generally unhelpful (in my experience of being one of people who overuses them most :p)

Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
Edit: I apologize if I am being aggressive, I'm not trying to be. I'm frustrated and worried, perhaps I'm wrong and you are right in that it is too much. Regardless, I hope people can understand where my thought process is coming from here. And yeah, maybe I just need a Xanax, who knows.
No worries man. If anyone's going to understand the thought process - well, go look at some of my past debate posts lol. This is pretty tame by comparison.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

Last edited by Concept; 11-16-2016 at 02:05 PM.
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 04:39 PM   #3014
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Ted Cruz for Attorney General.

God help us all.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 04:42 PM   #3015
Emi
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
 
Emi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 12,068
Send a message via Skype™ to Emi
Source?
__________________
Emi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 04:48 PM   #3016
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/ar...torney-general is one of dozens
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 06:51 PM   #3017
rotomotorz
Think ye can take me?
 
rotomotorz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Probably in the US
Posts: 2,524
High school students are also getting in on the anti-Trump protests. Still not sure what they're trying to accomplish or why moral high ground they have besides "I dont have a vote" which will likely never change
__________________
o O O
o
TS__[O]
{======|_|""T""|_|""r""|_|""a""|_|""i""|_|""n""|
/o--000'"`-0-0-'"`-0-0-'"`-0-0-'"`-0-0-'"`-0-0-'
Squad Summary

rotomotorz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 07:11 PM   #3018
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Oh look my fears from earlier now realized in a news article confirming I'm not insane for thinking the way I have been.

If you guys would rather remain blissfully ignorant then by all means go ahead, but I want you to understand that this is exactly the rhetoric we need to both fear and put an end to before it gets out of hand.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 08:03 PM   #3019
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 7,030
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
If you guys would rather remain blissfully ignorant then by all means go ahead, but I want you to understand that this is exactly the rhetoric we need to both fear and put an end to before it gets out of hand.
I don't think you understood the point we were disagreeing with you on. No-one's "remaining blissfully ignorant" here. I don't even think the analogy you were making earlier is that inaccurate (albeit there are some clear differences to go along with the parallels). The point is that the only difference between saying "X is bad because *reasons why fascist policies are bad (restriction of civil liberties of minorities, etc)*" and "X is bad because FASCISM" is that the former invites constructive debate whilst the latter is just going to piss off decent people who happen to have voted different to you and make them more likely to shout back and/or become more extreme for the sake of opposing the guy who shouted fascism at them. You're a smart guy and have hung around the debate forums long enough that you know that, but you still opted for the latter. Come on dude.

Unless your goal is to make people who disagree with you dig their heels in and get angry, pejorative labelling (even if accurate) serves zero constructive purpose. You can decide that people getting annoyed at these labels for their candidate isn't your problem, but given a) how close the election was and b) how much Trump's support thrived off of attacks like this, it kind of became your (and everyone elses) problem when it contributed to electing Trump.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

Last edited by Concept; 11-16-2016 at 08:11 PM.
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2016, 10:40 PM   #3020
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept
"X is bad because FASCISM"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deoxys
not a good reason to point out Trump's looking kind of Hitler-y with moves like this.

...

Fascism starts somewhere. Incremental slippery slope bullshit and whatnot. This? Press must re-register for credentials (yeah, good luck NYT)? Mass deportation (promising 3M deported right away, even though that's not physically possible)?

...

I'm saying that the implications of some of these decisions are beginning to look more and more fascist.
I'm sorry, Concept, but you're really taking out of context and exaggerating what I said in my earlier comments.

If you are not saying "You shouldn't compare his policies to fascism", but are instead saying "If you're going to compare his policies to fascism, try to do it with a bit more substance to create discussion", then okay - fair enough point. But how I interpreted your earlier post was "You shouldn't compare it to fascist at all, because labels = bad!", and if that is how you think, I simply cannot and will not agree with it, though I think I may have misunderstood.

I am 100% aware the right wing tried to do the same thing with Obama and Socialism back in 2008 (and multiple times throughout his tenure), but the difference here is that I truly don't think I'd be saying the same for, say, Rubio, or Bush, or Romney. I certainly never saw W. Bush that way. But when you compare a simple list of the building blocks of fascism to what Trump has so far proposed and/or started putting into action already, the similarities are alarming. And really, go down that list, point by point, read it - it's not difficult to almost immediately think of or draw on examples from the history of Trump's rhetoric (and actions) for almost every point there. On top of this, we have here a President-elect who has advocated the jailing of his political opponent, and now wants to make a registry of Muslims - and yes, immigrants to start, but we already have vetting processes and background checks for immigrants. Singling out Muslims is a xenophobic tactic (sorry for the labeling, but that's literally the definition of what it is) and it seems to me like a damn good way to eventually expand to all domestic muslim citizens "for our protection", and all it would take is one more domestic muslim terrorist attack to make it happen (and if not, I'm sure someone like Frank Gaffney like this Frank Gaffney fellow would be willing to advocate it, simply based off of his personal beliefs). I find it completely sad, but unsurprising, that if this sort of tactic were to be employed instead against Jews or Christians, the country would drop a collective bollock, probably even start doomsaying and referencing the Book of Revelation. (Edit: Watch - Trump Surrogate cites Japanese Internment Camps as precedent for Muslim registry)

The point is, again, slippery slope. Hell, Trump might not even (probably doesn't) know what Fascism actually is, or if he does, he might not realize he's leaning that way. It doesn't change what it looks like you want to do though. Incrementally, bit by bit, you have these plans in place, or that you want to eventually enact, and you know, when you put it all together, it kind of looks like that's what it's the foundation for.

And I, again, want to make it very clear, like a lot of people have been lately. Voting for Trump doesn't incline you to have a label on your person. No, I don't believe Shuckle, for instance, is racist, xenophobic, or misogynistic (even though he voted for Hillary), and I don't believe the same of Dopple especially, or the overwhelming majority of people who voted Trump. No, I am confident that they are good, well-meaning people who are sick of a system of corruption and greed and politics-as-usual. However, it doesn't dismiss that Trump himself - and now some of his cabinet picks - embody some of these things, yes, these 'labels'. I certainly hope that they do not let their questionable personalities and beliefs influence policy, but I guess we will have to wait and see. I am sorry if pointing out these things pushes them away, or makes them feel I am attacking them on a personal level and calling them those things, though I am not - but I think it would be a troubling to suggest we keep quiet and not draw comparisons or "label" things as they are - if we suppress our voice to appease those who might be made upset on the matter, we're helping stoke that fire. You don't need to be rude to Trump supporters, you don't need to group them into that or label them (and you shouldn't), to be able to manage this much. I'm more than well aware of the sort of awful and disgusting bullshit going on that pushed Trump supporters to vote for him in the first place, believe me, and I have already been actively fighting people on social media to knock their shit off by directly attacking the supporters themselves - and to learn their lesson from this so that they don't make the same terrible mistake again. And I genuinely believe I am not doing that here. I want to focus on the substance of his policies, and their implications, and to some degree the policymakers involved here - not the people who got him into office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Churchill
“When the situation was manageable it was neglected, and now that it is thoroughly out of hand we apply too late the remedies which then might have effected a cure. There is nothing new in the story. It is as old as the sibylline books. It falls into that long, dismal catalogue of the fruitlessness of experience and the confirmed unteachability of mankind. Want of foresight, unwillingness to act when action would be simple and effective, lack of clear thinking, confusion of counsel until the emergency comes, until self-preservation strikes its jarring gong – these are the features which constitute the endless repetition of history."

Last edited by deoxys; 11-17-2016 at 01:32 AM.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2016, 09:58 AM   #3021
Mozz
Golden Wang of Justice
 
Mozz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,936
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16...l-crying-wolf/
__________________
Mozz's Van, named after Bulbagardens creditor, was a hidden forum section where staff members could share pictures of their tiny penises and engage in homosex. Sadly, HAVA media, Bulbagardens new corporate overlord, forced it's closure. Can't have porn on a children's website.
Mozz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2016, 11:14 AM   #3022
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
Chills!

Also, would like to draw attention to this. I'm honestly shocked. I thought, like many of you on UPN, that Trump supporters were the ones perpetrating attacks on minorities, Muslims, LGBT people...and instead we get this.

Scott Alexander also wrote I Can Tolerate Anything Except the Outgroup, which is a fantastic piece of writing that I recommend you all take a look at.
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2016, 11:39 AM   #3023
Shuckle
Problematic Fave
 
Shuckle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
I'm more than well aware of the sort of awful and disgusting bullshit going on that pushed Trump supporters to vote for him in the first place, believe me, and I have already been actively fighting people on social media to knock their shit off by directly attacking the supporters themselves - and to learn their lesson from this so that they don't make the same terrible mistake again. And I genuinely believe I am not doing that here. I want to focus on the substance of his policies, and their implications, and to some degree the policymakers involved here - not the people who got him into office.
What? Minorities definitely voted Trump at numbers that are typical for Republican candidates (unless you're running against Obama), and Trump only pulled 58% of the white vote, which is also typical for Republican candidates (unless your opponent is Bill Clinton, in which case it's more than you could ever hope to get). You could argue about the 5% of white people who voted independent (Hi Talon!) but that doesn't really stop the fact that you're waaaaaaaaay off base with regards to what exactly caused people to vote for Trump.

Hint: Go to this fun interactive exit poll and try to see if you can find trends that are stronger than the racial breakdown.

Spoiler: show
90% of Trump voters were dissatisfied with the Obama administration.

There are huge spikes in "Satisfaction with the way the federal government is working" and "What do you think life will be like for the next generation?"


Like, I understand how you feel, and what you're trying to say, but the facts just don't match your perspective on this one. This was not a racially motivated election for more than a few thousand white supremacists and of course the black community (I'm wondering if Trump can shift that historically blue demographic - we'll see!). Pretty much everyone voted with their pocketbooks as usual. Trump is good for small businesses and the middle class, so he won. Seems standard enough to me.
__________________
Shuckle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2016, 01:24 PM   #3024
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
Shuckle, I was trying to point out the article was utter trash and the sort of thing that alienates Trump supporters in the first place, not using it as an argument. My bad for not pointing that out well enough. I'm actually well aware of everything you just talked about, so I just want to make that clear, I'm absolutely not defending that article, I'm ridiculing it!

Last edited by deoxys; 11-17-2016 at 01:31 PM.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2016, 02:20 PM   #3025
deoxys
Fog Badge
 
deoxys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
I'm gonna fucking puke.
deoxys is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Debate


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39 PM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.