11-16-2016, 12:12 PM | #3001 |
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Fucking well said.
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11-16-2016, 12:14 PM | #3002 |
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Waiting eagerly to hear from our local Trump supporters why a Muslim registry (currently being discussed for those not following the news) is totally okay and not at all setting a dangerous precedent/a gross violation of constitutional rights/not a good reason to point out Trump's looking kind of Hitler-y with moves like this.
And before anyone points out "Well, the courts would overturn it or rule it unconstitutional" - you're talking about something like this possibly going all the way to the Supreme Court that he is probably going to be crafting. |
11-16-2016, 12:28 PM | #3003 | |
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Secondly, did you just make another random Trump comparison with Hitler. It doesn't even make sense in this example, because most people were emigrating out of Nazi Germany, not immigrating in.
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11-16-2016, 12:36 PM | #3004 | |
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Fascism starts somewhere. Incremental slippery slope bullshit and whatnot. This? Press must re-register for credentials (yeah, good luck NYT)? Mass deportation (promising 3M deported right away, even though that's not physically possible)? Am I being alarmist? I don't even fucking know anymore. This is how this shit starts. Will you be okay with it in three years from now when the scope of these sort of things have been expanded to include more things/people? |
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11-16-2016, 12:37 PM | #3005 |
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Hitler is a very bad example to draw with regards to any current day leader. The conditions which actually allowed Hitler to come to power and thrive in the manner that he did were incredibly specific to the time period.
It's also massively emotive. Similar to the thing I raised earlier about the right labeling anyone left "commies" and the left labeling anyone right "fascists". |
11-16-2016, 12:44 PM | #3006 | |
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Religious beliefs are highly tailored to the individual. Just as not all Christians are the same even in a broad sense (e.g. Catholic vs. Baptist), never mind in an individual sense (e.g. Lafayette Indiana Baptist No.733 vs. Lafayette Indiana Baptist No.734), neither are all Muslims the same. You've got your orthodox and your secular, you've got your Sunni and your Shi'ite, you've got your militant and your pacifist, so on and so forth. To say nothing of teenagers and young adults whose religious views shift on a yearly if not weekly basis. In the name of security, a Muslim registry forsakes the freedoms of far too many citizens. And it paves the way towards similar registries for other citizen classes.
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11-16-2016, 12:48 PM | #3007 | |
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I have avoided making comparisons to Hitler for a long-ass time. I was waiting to see just what would happen. But this is how this shit starts. We ALREADY HAVE conditions and a climate of our own that could lead to similarities. What's next, muslims start wearing a crescent moon pin on their badge or their state IDs? We already have panic and fear of Islam spread throughout the country. If it's "for the good of the people" and "for our safety" then as long as it doesn't personally affect them, people will eat this shit up and be fine with it. This is how it fucking starts. I'm livid, and to not see the potential slippery slope here is insane to me. Again, go read up on the absolutely batshit crazy things Frank Gaffney has in his history. We shouldn't even be having this goddamn debate. This shouldn't even be on the table. We shouldn't even be talking about this right now. |
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11-16-2016, 01:00 PM | #3008 | |
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You've been the biggest doom drummer in this thread by far, even though you are threatened very little personally from Trump's government. By contrast, there are people in this thread more at risk from protectionism, isolationism and a rollback of progressive tolerance. They face an uncertain future, and so are hoping for the best. You are doing your darndest to Debbie Douse those dreams down into despair! Spoiler: show I'd either take a more optimistic approach to the future until the bad things, if they are pending, actually happen.
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11-16-2016, 01:10 PM | #3009 |
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Yeah, I'm a straight white male. They'd come for me last and my privilege is basically as high as it gets, no doubt. That doesn't mean I'm not frightened, and that I'm not frighted for so, so many of my friends that could be, and are already in some cases, affected by this.
Sure, maybe I'm a pessimist, but it's so hard to not be when you hear some of the rhetoric, and compare it to the annals of history. I want to be optimistic. So far, I have been given very little reason to be. |
11-16-2016, 01:15 PM | #3010 | |
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Meanwhile, the Nazis tried their best to kick the Jews out of Germany. Trump isn't restricting immigrants from Muslim countries...yet. Nor is he kicking Muslims out of the country...yet. Your Star of David example is interesting and while I do remember gays wearing pink ribbons (?) in Nazi Germany, this isn't something that immediately comes to mind when I hear about the database. It's not a 1:1 correlation (Trump isn't forcing all Muslims to wear hijabs or scarlet letters) nor does it really justify reaching for the low-hanging cliche of another Trump-Hitler comparison. Refer to that link again; the Bush system already categorized other citizen classes. It wasn't just Muslims. We're looking at status quo here - Trump only has to reinitialize the policy that currently exists by adding countries back to it. He doesn't have to do anything new!
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11-16-2016, 01:16 PM | #3011 | ||
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Basically, either we get to vent moral outrage and feel superior or we get to have a chance at having constructive debates on issues where people might change their minds (whether that be merely in UPNs debate thread or when campaigning or protesting). We do not get both.The difference between "I think this policy is bad because discrimination on religious grounds" and "I think this policy is bad because discrimination on religious ground and also HITLER" is the difference between a constructive debate and the kind of childish shouting match people like me so often end up in (because I am a childish, angry man who is not a good role model :p).
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11-16-2016, 01:26 PM | #3012 |
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Fuck's sake. I'm not calling his supporters these things. The cast majority of his supporters are just Republicans who were going to vote for whoever the Republican nominee was, period. They're almost all good people at their core. I'm sorry if they feel like attacking their candidate is attacking them, but that's not my problem, that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm going to call out garbage when I see garbage, period.
But you bet your ass I'm making comparisons to what Trump himself and his cabinet are doing because if we don't call out these things that are very clearly steering towards a dangerous path to take, and compare them to those that have similar trajectories and goals based on historical precedents, things we have already seen happen and the origins that led to their ultimate outcome, then when do you start? When do you say "Hey guys, this doesn't look so great, look at history and compare it to now" - do you wait until muslims are already wearing crescent moon badges before you open your mouth, before you speak out? When do you stop holding your tongue? If history has taught us anything, if it even looks like shit, or resembles it in anyway, or has the faintest smell of shit, we fucking call it out before it can actually become full-on shit. I want to be proven wrong. I want to be wrong on this. I have said over and over, I hope for all of our sakes that Trump is a good President. Why would I hope he is a bad one? He's President for all of us now. The best possible outcome is he is a good one, and I hope to god he is. But right now, I am not convinced - I'm worried. Edit: I apologize if I am being aggressive, I'm not trying to be. I'm frustrated and worried, perhaps I'm wrong and you are right in that it is too much. Regardless, I hope people can understand where my thought process is coming from here. And yeah, maybe I just need a Xanax, who knows. Last edited by deoxys; 11-16-2016 at 01:38 PM. |
11-16-2016, 01:52 PM | #3013 | ||
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>because if we don't call out these things that are very clearly steering towards a dangerous path to take, and compare them to those that have similar trajectories and goals based on historical precedents, things we have already seen happen and the origins that led to their ultimate outcome, then when do you start?
Simple; you don't do the comparison part, imo It's always going to be counterproductive. Imagine for a moment this was the 1930's and we therefore didn't have a Hitler comparison to make. Would you be completely unable to find a way to explain why you think the policy is bad? No? Then you're capable of criticising it now without the comparison. That's all the point I'm trying to make; that if you can criticise it just as effectively without the comparison - and the comparison is going to serve to make people dig their heels in and feel attacked in a way not using it won't - then it's not worth using. Things are wrong or right in and of themselves, not because some historical figure we demonise or venerate (respectively) did them. Honestly I just find labelling (fascist/fascism etc) and comparisons like this generally unhelpful (in my experience of being one of people who overuses them most :p) Quote:
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Last edited by Concept; 11-16-2016 at 02:05 PM. |
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11-16-2016, 04:39 PM | #3014 |
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Ted Cruz for Attorney General.
God help us all. |
11-16-2016, 04:42 PM | #3015 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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Source?
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11-16-2016, 04:48 PM | #3016 |
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http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/ar...torney-general is one of dozens
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11-16-2016, 06:51 PM | #3017 |
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High school students are also getting in on the anti-Trump protests. Still not sure what they're trying to accomplish or why moral high ground they have besides "I dont have a vote" which will likely never change
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11-16-2016, 07:11 PM | #3018 |
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Oh look my fears from earlier now realized in a news article confirming I'm not insane for thinking the way I have been.
If you guys would rather remain blissfully ignorant then by all means go ahead, but I want you to understand that this is exactly the rhetoric we need to both fear and put an end to before it gets out of hand. |
11-16-2016, 08:03 PM | #3019 | ||
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Unless your goal is to make people who disagree with you dig their heels in and get angry, pejorative labelling (even if accurate) serves zero constructive purpose. You can decide that people getting annoyed at these labels for their candidate isn't your problem, but given a) how close the election was and b) how much Trump's support thrived off of attacks like this, it kind of became your (and everyone elses) problem when it contributed to electing Trump.
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Last edited by Concept; 11-16-2016 at 08:11 PM. |
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11-16-2016, 10:40 PM | #3020 | |||
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If you are not saying "You shouldn't compare his policies to fascism", but are instead saying "If you're going to compare his policies to fascism, try to do it with a bit more substance to create discussion", then okay - fair enough point. But how I interpreted your earlier post was "You shouldn't compare it to fascist at all, because labels = bad!", and if that is how you think, I simply cannot and will not agree with it, though I think I may have misunderstood. I am 100% aware the right wing tried to do the same thing with Obama and Socialism back in 2008 (and multiple times throughout his tenure), but the difference here is that I truly don't think I'd be saying the same for, say, Rubio, or Bush, or Romney. I certainly never saw W. Bush that way. But when you compare a simple list of the building blocks of fascism to what Trump has so far proposed and/or started putting into action already, the similarities are alarming. And really, go down that list, point by point, read it - it's not difficult to almost immediately think of or draw on examples from the history of Trump's rhetoric (and actions) for almost every point there. On top of this, we have here a President-elect who has advocated the jailing of his political opponent, and now wants to make a registry of Muslims - and yes, immigrants to start, but we already have vetting processes and background checks for immigrants. Singling out Muslims is a xenophobic tactic (sorry for the labeling, but that's literally the definition of what it is) and it seems to me like a damn good way to eventually expand to all domestic muslim citizens "for our protection", and all it would take is one more domestic muslim terrorist attack to make it happen (and if not, I'm sure someone like Frank Gaffney like this Frank Gaffney fellow would be willing to advocate it, simply based off of his personal beliefs). I find it completely sad, but unsurprising, that if this sort of tactic were to be employed instead against Jews or Christians, the country would drop a collective bollock, probably even start doomsaying and referencing the Book of Revelation. (Edit: Watch - Trump Surrogate cites Japanese Internment Camps as precedent for Muslim registry) The point is, again, slippery slope. Hell, Trump might not even (probably doesn't) know what Fascism actually is, or if he does, he might not realize he's leaning that way. It doesn't change what it looks like you want to do though. Incrementally, bit by bit, you have these plans in place, or that you want to eventually enact, and you know, when you put it all together, it kind of looks like that's what it's the foundation for. And I, again, want to make it very clear, like a lot of people have been lately. Voting for Trump doesn't incline you to have a label on your person. No, I don't believe Shuckle, for instance, is racist, xenophobic, or misogynistic (even though he voted for Hillary), and I don't believe the same of Dopple especially, or the overwhelming majority of people who voted Trump. No, I am confident that they are good, well-meaning people who are sick of a system of corruption and greed and politics-as-usual. However, it doesn't dismiss that Trump himself - and now some of his cabinet picks - embody some of these things, yes, these 'labels'. I certainly hope that they do not let their questionable personalities and beliefs influence policy, but I guess we will have to wait and see. I am sorry if pointing out these things pushes them away, or makes them feel I am attacking them on a personal level and calling them those things, though I am not - but I think it would be a troubling to suggest we keep quiet and not draw comparisons or "label" things as they are - if we suppress our voice to appease those who might be made upset on the matter, we're helping stoke that fire. You don't need to be rude to Trump supporters, you don't need to group them into that or label them (and you shouldn't), to be able to manage this much. I'm more than well aware of the sort of awful and disgusting bullshit going on that pushed Trump supporters to vote for him in the first place, believe me, and I have already been actively fighting people on social media to knock their shit off by directly attacking the supporters themselves - and to learn their lesson from this so that they don't make the same terrible mistake again. And I genuinely believe I am not doing that here. I want to focus on the substance of his policies, and their implications, and to some degree the policymakers involved here - not the people who got him into office. Quote:
Last edited by deoxys; 11-17-2016 at 01:32 AM. |
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11-17-2016, 09:58 AM | #3021 |
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11-17-2016, 11:14 AM | #3022 | |
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Also, would like to draw attention to this. I'm honestly shocked. I thought, like many of you on UPN, that Trump supporters were the ones perpetrating attacks on minorities, Muslims, LGBT people...and instead we get this. Scott Alexander also wrote I Can Tolerate Anything Except the Outgroup, which is a fantastic piece of writing that I recommend you all take a look at.
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11-17-2016, 11:39 AM | #3023 | |
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Hint: Go to this fun interactive exit poll and try to see if you can find trends that are stronger than the racial breakdown. Spoiler: show Like, I understand how you feel, and what you're trying to say, but the facts just don't match your perspective on this one. This was not a racially motivated election for more than a few thousand white supremacists and of course the black community (I'm wondering if Trump can shift that historically blue demographic - we'll see!). Pretty much everyone voted with their pocketbooks as usual. Trump is good for small businesses and the middle class, so he won. Seems standard enough to me.
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11-17-2016, 01:24 PM | #3024 |
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Shuckle, I was trying to point out the article was utter trash and the sort of thing that alienates Trump supporters in the first place, not using it as an argument. My bad for not pointing that out well enough. I'm actually well aware of everything you just talked about, so I just want to make that clear, I'm absolutely not defending that article, I'm ridiculing it!
Last edited by deoxys; 11-17-2016 at 01:31 PM. |
11-17-2016, 02:20 PM | #3025 |
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