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Old 07-21-2013, 08:20 AM   #551
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http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/randombattle-40780680

It's not very interesting, reasonably one-sided thanks to great RNG for me...but just watch 'till the end and...well, see what happens.
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Old 07-21-2013, 01:48 PM   #552
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Yeah, Lost, what blaze is saying about banning both Sun and Rain is that if one was banned on it's own, the other would utterly dominanate.
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Old 07-21-2013, 03:39 PM   #553
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Strategic switching. (Random Battle ; 70 turns)

It's not really an annoying stall match -- it's just a lot of switching -- so if you want to see an (imo) exciting lengthy match, check this one out. Not super exciting or anything, but it's not like we sit there spamming Rest or Recover a whole bunch. (Okay, there is one part with two Roosters squaring off, but I swear it's not that long nor bad a portion.)

Spoiler: show
After having lost my two previous matches 0-1 due to retarded bullshit misses (I was 4-6 in one match right off the bat because an opening turn Draco Meteor missed; would have been 6-5 otherwise), I was pretty pissed at the haxy misses I'd been experiencing and needed a win before taking a break for now. So I was pretty miffed throughout most of the earlier two-thirds of this match with all of the bullshit misses that kept happening. Sleep Powder is 75% accurate. Stun Spore is 75% accurate. Air Slash is 95% accurate. QUIT MISSING.

Had this guy won, it would have certainly been thanks to the sum total of all of those crucial misses on various turns. But he didn't win, and that's because the match was also owed to two other factors. One was how Fate decided to balance out him getting haxy luck with all my misses by giving me haxy luck in the form of AMAZING PARAFLINCH SUCCESS RATES. Good lord. \o/ The other was what really defined this match from beginning to end: LOTS AND LOTS OF STRATEGIC SWITCHING.
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:30 PM   #554
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tl;dr- people need to stop complaining and banning things without reason. Either keep all weather, or ban it- the only reason people are bitching about Sun+ Chlorophyll is because they didn't think about what happens when Drizzle/swift swim got ban
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:37 PM   #555
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tl;dr- people need to stop complaining and banning things without reason. Either keep all weather, or ban it- the only reason people are bitching about Sun+ Chlorophyll is because they didn't think about what happens when Drizzle/swift swim got ban
Not really. Sun + Chloro only gets bad once rain is totally out of the picture.
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:51 PM   #556
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I can't believe that we have a weather meta but no Castform.

It seems criminal, to me. :<

Probably an anti-Sun thing, from the looks of it, seeing as Weather Ball is fire typed in Sun and the primary threat from Sun teams is Chlorophyll which is almost exclusively restricted to Grass types.
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Old 07-22-2013, 02:55 PM   #557
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Yeah, there's a core difference between rain + Swift Swim and sun + Chlorophyll and it's this:

Your average Swift Swim Pokémon:
  • is a Water type
  • therefore has STAB on the same type that rain boosts the power of (i.e. Water)
  • resists the type that rain boosts
Your average Chlorophyll Pokémon:
  • is a Grass type
  • therefore lacks STAB on the type that sun boosts (i.e. Fire)
  • is in fact weak to the very type sun boosts
Being a Grass type on a sun team involves some risk and reward. The reward is the speed boost from Chlorophyll but the risk is getting clobbered by Fire-type attacks. Being a Water type on a rain team is all reward, zero risk. You not only gain the speed boost from Swift Swim but you furthermore gain the power boost from the rain too. Basically, Water types with Swift Swim get the benefit of a free Choice Band and a free Choice Scarf (and realistically they're doing one better than this since it's doubling the speed, not 1.5x'ing it). Grass types with Chlorophyll are only getting the free Choice Scarf; not only are they not getting the free Choice Band, they're handing it over to their mortal enemies.

That stated, I do actually share the same ban views as Firewater on this. Either ban all of the weather or else ban none of it. The reason being that there's always going to be a tier when it comes to weather (Sand > Rain > Sun > Hail as of Generation 5 when allowing 100% of non-legendaries; I'd put Rain ahead of Sand myself in past generations, but the combination of Garchomp and Excadrill in Gen 5 pushes this one over the edge for sand) and so whenever you defang the current king, you're always going to promote the prior prince to king status and renew the cycle of bitching and nagging about things. Which is pretty much exactly how this went down. ^^; First one to get banned? Sand Rush Excadrill and (once again) Sand Veil Garchomp. Bye-bye sand dominance in the breaking dawn hours of Gen 5 competitive play, hellooooooo Kingdra teams! Second one to get banned? Why, Swift Swim Kingdra, of course. Now you guys are talking about banning rain completely, which just means that sun is going to rule the roost undeterred. People will tire of that bullshit very quickly and soon after Drought + Chlorophyll Venusaur will get the ban, just as Drizzle + Swift Swim Kingdra did. And then what'll happen if you wind up pushing it farther and you ban sun entirely? You'll be left with just hail. Poor, pitiful hail. And then people will nag because hail teams are actually pretty decent, especially when they don't have to worry about vying for weather supremacy with any of the other three weather types. People will ask "Well how come hail gets special treatment, huh? " and before long it, too, will get banned. So can we just cut the crap and skip right ahead to the inevitable end result please? Can we just agree to either ban all of the insta-weather abilities from OU or else to ban none of them and laugh at how unfun that makes modern Pokémon because seriously fuck Sand Rush Excadrill and Swift Swim Kingdra?
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:54 AM   #558
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Man, but Sand is still viable even without sand veil garchomp and excadrill :p. Other than that, thumbs up.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:57 AM   #559
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Yeah Sand actually still works very well, speaking as someone whose main OU team is Sand.
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Old 07-24-2013, 07:15 AM   #560
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Where did I say sand doesn't work without those two? I said sand is king with those two allowed in. Without them, I feel the balance tips back towards rain. And would you look at that: the usage stats agree. (Sand is still up there, but Politoed ekes out Tyranitar and Rotom-W, Starmie, Keldeo, etc. are really only accompanied by Garchomp [wtf, he's back still? ] and that's about it. Terrakion, Gliscor, etc. show up but quite a bit later.)
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:15 AM   #561
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Agreeing with both FW and Talon here. That would of been the route how it would of gone if that proposal didn't happen. Besides, I do think rain is king as of right now, and it really was king in the days of Torny-T. They let Garchomp back in and banned the Veil abilities since the evasion boosts proved to broken. I still want then to suspect test Exca in OU again since it has so many more counters now. Mainly Keldeo and TechniLoom. It's really gimmicky in Ubers anyways, where Rain and Sun are the absolute king.

Speaking of Keldeo I hope it gets banned. It's only hard counter is Celebi and that can be taken care of easy enough with team support.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:51 AM   #562
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It's really gimmicky in Ubers anyways, where Rain and Sun are the absolute king.
This really isn't a good reasoning for testing something in OU unlike your other one where you mention it has more counters. Ubers is a banlist, not a tier. It doesn't matter if something is gimmicky/not good in Ubers, as long as it's too good for OU that's where it stays.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:59 AM   #563
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This really isn't a good reasoning for testing something in OU unlike your other one where you mention it has more counters. Ubers is a banlist, not a tier. It doesn't matter if something is gimmicky/not good in Ubers, as long as it's too good for OU that's where it stays.
Yea, I know I know, I'm still waking up. Still, I don't feel it's as broken for OU right now just due to the amount of counters it has, but I have a feeling it will stay in Ubers because it still would be broken in OU. It's pretty much the best Offensive Rapid Spinner for sand, outspeeds and kills threats such as Terrakion, Jirachi, and so forth. While Exca certainly has more counters, it still retains of it's brokeness. I just want to see how it will play out.

Even if Ubers is a ban list it's still pretty fun. I personally consider it a one way in, no way out tier myself, which is essentially a ban list.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:08 AM   #564
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Well there's a way out, but it's only if people overestimate your power before you're released, but then realize that your movepool is garbage and you get destroyed by Scizor.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:21 AM   #565
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Well there's a way out, but it's only if people overestimate your power before you're released, but then realize that your movepool is garbage and you get destroyed by Scizor.
I feel like that is a jab against Kyurem-B.

Which has all the movepool it ever needs.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:03 PM   #566
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Sand Rush Excadrill is simply too good for OU. Period. The only reason you can call it "gimmicky" in Ubers is because the other weathers so utterly dominate as to leave no room for sand, hence why sand teams can be perceived as gimmicky in Ubers. But in OU, Excadrill's Ground/Steel typing (which affords two immunities and a boatload of resistances), his free Choice Scarf in sand (and again, it's better than that since it's doubling his speed, not 1.5x'ing it), and his choice of either a held Choice Band or a Swords Dance set (almost always the latter as I recall, with Air Balloon for good anti-Earthquake measure). Yeah, sneaking a quick peek at Smogon reminds one of this:
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After a Swords Dance, Excadrill reaches a mammoth 738 Attack with a Jolly nature, or 810 with Adamant. Thanks to its excellent ability, Excadrill's Speed doubles in sandstorm, allowing it to outspeed every non-Choice Scarf user in the game. If using a Jolly nature, Excadrill hits 604 Speed, while with Adamant, it sits at an impressive 550 Speed, still enough to outspeed Deoxys-S, the fastest unboosted Pokemon in the game.
Yeah. No. Sand Rush Excadrill is simply too good. I beat my fair number back in the early days of BW1 competitive play, but that was mostly to do with either a) inexperienced opponents or else b) Focus Sash Mamoswine on my team Earthquaking an Excadrill who had lost his balloon to a fellow teammate's attack the turn Excadrill decided to Swords Dance up. I pretty much always lost two Pokémon in exchange for his one Excadrill, and -- I'll repeat -- that was usually with the scrubbier players.

Memories of Excadrill and annoyance with rain teams were pretty much the driving factors behind my decision to place Sunny Day on one of my team members. It was an utter waste of a move save for the fact that it allowed me to erase the enemy's desired weather once their weather generator was knocked out. I recently got rid of the move, but I'd bring it back in a heartbeat if Excadrill were brought back to OU. That ... or I'd continue to sit out OU since such an OU environment would almost certainly boil down to 45% sand teams 45% rain teams 10% people who like to be different but end up failing to reach the top.

To put things into perspective with Excadrill, consider this:
  • would you allow the combination of Drizzle Politoed + Swift Swim Kingdra to come back to OU?
  • if yes, would you allow it if Kingdra could learn Swords Dance instead of just Dragon Dance?
If you answered no to either question, then you should realize why Sand Rush Excadrill has no place in OU. If you answered yes to both questions, then wtf is wrong with you!? ;P
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:33 PM   #567
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What if I just like Kingdra?
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:42 PM   #568
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You can just like Kingdra. One of my Story Mode Six in Ruby was Andromeda the lady Kingdra. But I'm just saying that if more and more people want to see Drizzle banned period, and if they already did ban Drizzle + Swift Swim Kingdra ages ago, then what on earth would make you think that they'd allow Drizzle + Swift Swim Swords Dance Kingdra were such a thing possible? ^^; And yet that's precisely what Sandstream + Sand Rush Swords Dance Excadrill is.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:45 PM   #569
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Let's say I really, really like Kingdra and want it to be the best Pokemon in the world.

EDIT: is anybody else unable to connect to PS?
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:56 PM   #570
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Yea, Talon had the perfect counter argument. The best counters I can think of is BandLoom, Bulky Landy-T, and SpecsKeldeo before a Swords Dance. Still, pretty broken...

I have no problems getting onto Showdown...
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:37 PM   #571
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Yea, Talon had the perfect counter argument. The best counters I can think of is BandLoom, Bulky Landy-T, and SpecsKeldeo before a Swords Dance. Still, pretty broken...

I have no problems getting onto Showdown...
LO Breloom scores a OHKO on Excadrill with Mach Punch, since like none of them ever ran HP evs.

Landy-T is easily the best "counter". Kinda like how its a good "counter" to Terrakion.

But Jolly Excadrill outspeeds CS Keldeo. DAYUM. And I think you overestimate Excadrill's bulk. You don't need band or specs to get rid of it. But Excadrill definitely deserves to be banned, no question.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:55 PM   #572
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LO Breloom scores a OHKO on Excadrill with Mach Punch, since like none of them ever ran HP evs.

Landy-T is easily the best "counter". Kinda like how its a good "counter" to Terrakion.

But Jolly Excadrill outspeeds CS Keldeo. DAYUM. And I think you overestimate Excadrill's bulk. You don't need band or specs to get rid of it. But Excadrill definitely deserves to be banned, no question.
I did overestimate it's bulk... I'm just use to one shotting them with Kyogre's Water Spout, and the rest of the Uber's tier as well... Though LO Loom is a pretty good check regardless. Yeam Lady-T is, and Keldeo can survive most of what it throws at it, well, most... Unless they ban Sand Stream + Sand Rush (Stoutland's practically the only other known abuser and it's NU), Exca's broken.

Besides that, anyone up for a battle?
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:39 PM   #573
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You can just like Kingdra. One of my Story Mode Six in Ruby was Andromeda the lady Kingdra. But I'm just saying that if more and more people want to see Drizzle banned period, and if they already did ban Drizzle + Swift Swim Kingdra ages ago, then what on earth would make you think that they'd allow Drizzle + Swift Swim Swords Dance Kingdra were such a thing possible? ^^; And yet that's precisely what Sandstream + Sand Rush Swords Dance Excadrill is.
Except I think that Excadrill is better than Swift Swim Swords Dance Kingdra. Even with a Life Orb and Adamant nature, Kingdra can't touch Air Balloon Excadrill's attack stat, and Exca has a higher Speed stat as well. Coverage is about even IMO, Kingdra gets Outrage and Waterfall, Exca gets the pseudo-EdgeQuake coverage (since it uses Rock Slide instead) plus X-Scissor/Shadow Claw if you're not running Rapid Spin.
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Old 07-24-2013, 03:43 PM   #574
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Except I think that Excadrill is better than Swift Swim Swords Dance Kingdra. Even with a Life Orb and Adamant nature, Kingdra can't touch Air Balloon Excadrill's attack stat, and Exca has a higher Speed stat as well. Coverage is about even IMO, Kingdra gets Outrage and Waterfall, Exca gets the pseudo-EdgeQuake coverage (since it uses Rock Slide instead) plus X-Scissor/Shadow Claw if you're not running Rapid Spin.
Plus the fact that no matter how hard you try, you are going to have difficulties with Ferrothorn but Excadrill can muscles past most of its checks bar Landy-T.
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Old 07-24-2013, 04:24 PM   #575
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Go to PS to play a few Random games.
Server is refusing new battles because of planned server reset.
Decide to chat a little bit with people in the lobby because WHY NOT.
Say a few typically Talon things.
Five minutes later find myself invited to private chatroom with half the mods and admins. ^^;; (Well, there were at the time. Quite a few signed off since then.)
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