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Old 12-17-2007, 02:40 PM   #1
Talon87
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Naruto Shippuuden

Does anybody else watch (or read) Naruto anymore? I enjoyed the first series this summer and ended up hitting the climactic series finale around late July or early August or so. When I started up the fillers, it was really bad at first, and then not too bad, but rarely as good as "the best of Naruto." A friend "made" me watch Shippuuden's first two episodes with him before he went off to Japan, and the impact of those awesome episodes was so great that it put a real sour taste in my mouth when I had to go back to the fillers. So sour, that I unintentionally dropped Naruto. I don't know when I realized that I had done this, but I decided this week, "Dude ... just skip the filler. Why miss out on such a great series?" And so I rewatched Episodes 1, 2, and 3 last night before picking back up with Episode 4, and now I'm through 11 (less than 24 hours later >_>) because it's just that good.

Anyway, if you folks are farther along than I am (e.g. caught up with the anime or, even worse, caught up with the Japanese manga o_o), feel free to discuss the show and I'll leave my thread until I can come back and join you. >_> Otherwise, I'll take it that nobody is watching Naruto except me. (You're missing out! Unless you've read the manga already.)
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:53 PM   #2
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

ARRGH!!! >.< I completely forgot about this. I have been faithfully following the manga, but I just stopped downloading. I need to find my stopping point and continue. I mean, to me, Naruto's just another shounen, but since I have bothered to go as far as I have, I might as well finish. I think I was on like chapter 360 or something like that.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:22 PM   #3
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

I haven't read Naruto for like 2 years because that summer my computer's modem broke. It was at a really important point too, but I stopped mostly due to losing the habit and not really wanting to catch up 2 or three months worth of issues.

Even the anime has passed me from what I've been told. I know roughly what's happening and I'm just gonna find a friend to just tell me the ending (which is bound to be coming soon).
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:00 PM   #4
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

I keep tabs on the events in Naruto, but like Bleach and Dragonball before it it's hit the "shounen quagmire" where the vertical ladder of progression has been blurred out by fog, and there's a lot of powerful enemies but no real way to deal with them. A number of important characters have died thus far, no real significant plot events except for that.

I never watched Shippuuden because the animation, art and writing is atrocious. The only shounen manga-kas who have been able to put out decent material right now are Akamatsu and Oda, and One Piece's fanbase has become so unbearably rabid I've considered permanently leaving Arlong Park.

I mean, it's one thing for a 13-year old kid to act like a retarded fanboy. It's another thing for 18-year old kids to be retarded fanboys, and elitists as well. Considering the One Piece fanbase was so awesome two years ago (where I knew everyone, we were all respectful and rational) things went to heck pretty quickly.

Oda's writing has been of depreciating quality since the Sea Train, though.
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Old 12-17-2007, 08:26 PM   #5
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

I agree with your statements in a lot of ways DCD. When Naruto and the gang went to save Sasuke from joining Orochimaru, you could see the awful quality. Not only that, the show dragged on. They had to slow the show down as much as possible because they knew they would soon catch up with the manga, and so they made everything insignificant thing happen at the slowest pace. i.e. Naruto stands atop a tree branch. We see leaves blow by. We still watch him stand there. Nothing happens for another 2 minutes. Then he might say or think something. OMG THAT TOOK TWENTY MINUTES ASSHOLE! GET TO THE FIGHT!

And the number of tards in Shounen shows is always very high. I've grown to dislike Bleach. There's so many Bleachtards out there who won't acknowledge all the dumb plot holes in the show. Like how the fuck do souls in Soul Society have sex and make babies? It totally makes no sense when you consider they said the number of souls in the universe was a limited number and how Quincies were killing too many Hollows and not letting them into the afterlife, which lead to their near extinction. And why does it seem like everyone sent to Soul Society never get processed back out to the living world. Soul Society was explained as a 'processing plant' that would eventually lead to people being reincarnated. Instead we see everyone looking like hobos. MAKES NO SENSE! FIX YOUR DAMN PLOT HOLES KUBO!
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:23 PM   #6
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Wow. Way to spoil Bleach, ass. ¬_¬ (Just kidding. :P The show's been out for years, I should kick my butt into gear at this point if I hope to avoid spoilers.)

Regarding Naruto, I'd say that the show was almost non-stop awesome (and ever-increasing awesome whenever the next awesome episode aired, which was like 95% of the time) up until the 3rd's death. In fact, I'd specifically note the episode of the 3rd's funeral as the huge turning point in Naruto from "nicely-paced and awesome" to "slowly-paced and good but not great." The story arc of "the search for a new Hokage!" was made good by two factors:
(1) Tsunade (omg hottest granny ever O_O, she can use genjutsu to hide her wrinkles and liverworts any day!)
(2) Jiraiya (somebody I'd been wanting to see since Episode 1 and who has proven to be my favorite "superhero" of the series, he's just so fucking awesome in every way and is my total role model -- he even writes world-adored hentai and gets all the girls!)

Once Tsunade was appointed as "the new 5th," things took a turn from "slow-paced but still good" to "slow-paced and beginning to feel a bit forced." In other words, the whole explanation of Sasuke's past -- which should have been a great moment in the series -- felt like a dusty gem in a sea of garbage. Orochimaru's henchmen were disgustingly weak (defeated by a bunch of genins!?) and it was even lamer to recognize that every last one of Orochimaru's henchmen, save Kabuto, was just "a freak of nature" for their primary ability and then "Orochimaru's poisonous neckbite" for their second ability. Kabuto was the only one who had a unique ability that was the result of hard work (and not being born a freak, like the bony guy or the double-headed guy) and was cool to boot. And of course he's therefore the ONLY ONE who the author spared from a death at the hands of "we haven't been practicing for more than a year! ^-^" Konoha genins. Because he was the only one worth saving. The others were just trash conjured up out of thin air to fit the needs of the unraveling plot, and as such their deaths were completely devoid of the emotion that came with the other characters in the franchise. Hell, I'd say I felt more awe when the Chuunin Shiken's fights proctor was found dead by his sister in the ANBU unit. (Hey, whatever happened to her?)

But the thing is, the show was still tolerable. And so we still tuned in, and were given the ultimate in season finales -- the multi-episode "Naruto vs. Sasuke" fight we had been dying to see for ages. And it delivered in every way imaginable. Fuck yes. It was glorious.

So really, despite the downturn the show took beginning (in my book) all the way back with the death of the 3rd, I'd still say that the subsequent two seasons were good fun because they led up to that fight, and they weren't nearly as bad as the average filler story arc.

The biggest problem I have with Naruto's filler is along the same lines as Loki's beef with Bleach: the introduction of franchise-ruinous plotholes. In the case of Naruto, we had been told "there are five major ninja villages, and the rest are all more or less off the map they're so unimportant." Yet all of a sudden, village after village after village popped up in the filler, and many of them (such as the lamo Star Village) were invented to be so overpowered that they could possibly rival the Sand or (gasp!) even Konoha itself. Come on! >_< Way to shit all over the main story, assholes. I guess that's what assholes do best -- shit all over stuff. -_-; *sigh*

Closing comment: back to that ANBU chick. Yeah, you know, the one who the anime makes it seem like she's going to be a super important new addition to the plot at the end of the season where the 3rd dies. The one with the long purple hair and the ANBU facemask. The one who talks with Kakashi (iirc) at the monument that Konoha erected in honor of all the ninjas who have lost their lives serving the village. In the short span of two episodes, they introduced her and made it seem like she was going to be this really important character ... and then we never saw her again. Not even for a split-second. Where did she go!? Just who was she!? (besides being the head of ANBU, which would suggest she might have been Itachi's 2nd-in-command from his own days as ANBU's leader)
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Old 12-17-2007, 09:34 PM   #7
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Regarding Shippuuden: it still hasn't even been 24 hours yet (though we're getting close; iirc I started around this time last night), and I've already watched 17 episodes (1, 2, and 3 for the Xth time and 4-17 for the first time).

- Is Shippuuden good? Answer: I'd say it's as good as the Chuunin Shiken episodes, take it for what you will. Has a lot of similarities insofar as mystery factor, big important shit going down factor, and introducing of new powerful characters factor.

- It must be good, right? You've watched 17 episodes in ~as many hours as you've been awake! Answer: no, not exactly. You see, Shippuuden (a) is not even 20 minutes long in terms of actual story telling because (in order to delay catching up with the manga) they not only have the intro and end theme songs, they not only have the sneak peek for next week's episode, but they've now added another timesink in the form of a 30 to 45-second "Scenes from the original Naruto series!" thing to (allegedly ) help people remember what happened years ago in Naruto. Also, each episode ends with a MASSIVE cliffhanger, and so that's part of why I've been "turning the pages of this pageturner" so to speak -- it's not that Shippuuden is orgasmically good, it's more like "it's damn fine anime" coupled with "omg cliffhanger :o ... I can't rest not knowing what happens next!"

- I read the manga and want to know what's happened where you are. Answer: in as non-spoilerish a way as possible, Naruto and the others have just reached the lair where Shukaku the Ichibi has been [spoiler]ed. The name of the episode, whether it's for real or not, was "Gaara _ _ _ _ " (four letter verb), so ... there you go.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:48 AM   #8
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Hmm, the show started off nicely, but Naruto Shippuuden has really hit the brakes of late. I'm on Episode 23 (out of 39 aired, so I'll soon be hitting the brick wall all fans of ongoing anime dread!), and the show is still stuck on the first story arc. A story arc begun right away in Episode 1. This would be analogous to saying, "The original Naruto introduced Zabuza in Episode 1 and, by Episode 23, he was still alive and kicking." In fact, we've been watching the same three simultaneous "fights" for the past 8 or so episodes. I say "fights" in quotation marks because one of them, as you'll soon read, is not even a fight!
1- Sakura and Chiyo-baachan are fighting Sasori, still
2- Naruto and Kakashi are chasing after an airborne Deidara, still (see? not even a fight!)
3- Team Gai is still stuck fighting their clones with no end in sight, nor is it interesting to watch

I really like Sasori's fight. And I really like how they've given him great character development during this fight, as (previously) he was just as faceless a villain as Kisame or Deidara are. Now, I'd say he as perhaps even more character development than Uchiha Itachi -- and that's saying something! But the problem is, the fight's gone on too damn long @_@. In typical shounen style, both fighters started off with their top guns ... and then revealed they had even bigger guns ... and have since revealed that they have even BIGGER guns. It reeks of Power Rangers' core plot hole, the one where even the dumbest child asks the television set, "Why don't you just hop in the Megazord to begin with? >_>"
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:53 AM   #9
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

The other problem I'm beginning to have with Shippuuden is, being the Hokage or Kazekage is starting to mean nothing. Why do I say this? Well, before (in Naruto 001-220), it was a big deal for a ____kage to be beaten in battle. ____kages were said to be the strongest shinobi in their villages. That is to say, Numero Uno in the village. That is to say, "If anybody can beat me, then our village is fucked." That was part of why it was such a big deal that the 3rd Hokage was defeated by Orochimaru, but why his defeat didn't leave a sour taste in anyone's mouths:
1- he was old, so Orochimaru had the advantage there
2- he was Orochimaru's sensei, so you could say he had the advantage there
3- Orochimaru was willing to use dark ninjutsu that the 3rd was not, so you could say Orochimaru had the advantage there
4- In the end, the 3rd resorted to a self-sacrificing waza to overcome Orochimaru, so you could say he was bound to "defeat" Orochimaru (since Orochimaru fights to live himself, and not for others to live as the 3rd did), and you could also say he lost because he killed himself
5- but Orochimaru had already proven too much for the 3rd, which is why the 3rd self-sacrificed himself as a last ditch effort

And in the end, whether you're a "The 3rd shouldn't have died" or a "Orochimaru should have totally kicked that geezer's ass" Naruto fan, I think both camps are satisfied with the fact that the 3rd died but not before ruining Orochimaru's arms. It was an epic battle, and it was (up till then) the only example we had of a ____kage losing to a non-kage ninja.

I've digressed a tiny bit, but the point I meant to establish was, that fight was the only example of a ____kage losing in Naruto. However, in Shippuuden, we've already established that ...
- Sasori was able to kill off the 3rd Kazekage who is repeatedly said to have been "the strongest Kazekage ever" (i.e. he's like Konoha's 4th, and he's even stronger than Gaara), and he didn't just kill him -- he killed him and turned him into a puppet. I mean, how humiliating is that for a guy who is supposed to be leagues stronger than his fellow Sand villager?

- Deidara defeated Gaara (admittedly at the cost of his left arm, but still), and recall that Gaara's the 5th Kazekage

- Shippuuden reminds us that Orochimaru may have had a hard time killing off the 3rd Hokage, but it was a breeze for him to pick off the 4th Kazekage. (I'd forgotten about that! Thanks for reminding me, Shippuuden. >_>)

So in other words ... THREE KAZEKAGES have been defeated by single members of Akatsuki. Three. And one of those same Akatsuki members went on to destroy the 3rd Hokage.

So ... where's the value in being a ____kage anymore? >_> I mean, seriously, it seems like Akatsuki has been built up from "a bunch of rogue ninjas who are stronger than your average jounin" (Naruto) to "a team of demigods who none can oppose save for trained Jinchuuriki" (Shippuuden). Laaaaaaaame. And I suppose expectedly shounen. But whatever.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:24 PM   #10
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

It's not so bad when Akatsuki defeat Kages, Akatsuki consists of the most powerful, violent ninjas around. Each of them are of at least Kage level, and you've got to remember the Hidden Village of the Sand wasn't that powerful a nation, and likewise the "strongest Kazekage" wouldn't amount to more than an above average Kage in other villages.

The unbearable part of Shippuuden is where horribly inept ninjas manage to best these Akatsuki guys. Since you mentioned Sasori, I warn you that you are in for the most horribly drawn out, ridiculously inane fight in the entire manga. It spread out for ten whole chapters without breaks and was, from beginning to end, positively putrid.

Shan't spoil the shock.
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:38 PM   #11
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Well, I just finished Episode 27. Photobucket for indication of what I just saw: ã“れ. So I'd say your warnings and sympathies are well-intended but misplaced/too late at this point. ^_^; Thanks anyway. ^_^; It was long as hell.

The funny thing is, the sneak peek for Episode 28 showed that Sakura is still in that cave doing stuff. For God's sake, move on!

I really liked Sasori, though. My only regret is that -- given how drawn out everything else was -- they didn't spell out the specifics of how he "turned evil" and just left it up to the viewer to deduce that "he turned evil due to the loss of his parents, (a) because he missed them and (b) because it taught him that death is so bad you should do anything to defeat it, even turning yourself into a puppet."

My only complaint with Sasori ... well, one major one and one big-but-not-major one:
major) in the episodes where we first met Neji (way back when in Season 2 of the original series), we learned that there are 64 chakra points in a person's body and that closing these chakra points off fucks with a ninja's ability to generate chakra. This implied (quite strongly) that a ninja who lost his arms and legs would no longer be able to generate as much chakra as he previously could, i.e. chakra flows through ones body and the smaller the body the less total chakra one can generate (given one's own personal max potential). Considering how powerful Sasori was shown to be, and considering that we found out in the end that his existence consisted of a tofu roll about one foot long and 6 inches across with arteries branching out from it, I think this sort of shoots his chakra abilities in the foot, don't you?

big complaint) If Sasori wanted to live forever (making him a fantastic partner for Orochimaru! ), why the fuck did he think becoming a puppet would do that for him? Yes, becoming a puppet means one's body is forever exchangeable, and thus one can body hop ad infinitum, but that would still have required his tofu roll of flesh to live forever. And ... um ... it wouldn't have. >_> That was still a human part of him, i.e. that would have still died in under 200 years (within the world of Naruto). If he found a way to make the tofu roll part of him live forever, then basically, he solved the very puzzle Orochimaru et al have been struggling with, and ... yeah. >_> I call plothole.

*sigh* Naruto Shippuuden, how you disappoint me with your plotholes so typical of shounen series that get too big for their britches.
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Old 12-18-2007, 04:55 PM   #12
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

My advice- Watch One Piece xd.
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:35 PM   #13
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

No thanks, One Piece looks way too silly. Of the three major Shonen Jump franchises (DBZ, One Piece, Naruto), I'd have to say that Naruto looks like the one a Western adult not into anime could most easily appreciate. That, and it's too long. I'm not pulling another Prince of Tennis / Naruto that easily. -_-; I'd have to be convinced the show is awesomely good, and unfortunately, I am convinced against One Piece. Including by a lot of the UPN posts on it (so please don't try to proselytize).

The problem is that few people are Jerry Seinfeld. -_-; That is to say, few people have the talent to make new stories year after year after year and know when it's time to call it quits. Seinfeld ended not with a whisper but with a bang; too few are the shows that do that, both in America and Japan.
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:42 PM   #14
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Pfft. It's easily the best of the three Shonen Jump series, but if you don't want to catch up, I can't blame you.

Anyway, back a few posts back, the reason the Genin of Konoha beat the elite of Orochimaru is the author's stupid "Friendship triumphs over all!' philosophy he presses. Choji didn't want to disappoint his first friend Shikamaru and was willing to sacrifice himself, thus his win. Neiji... I don't really remember his fight >>;; Kiba, Shikarmaru, Lee all saved by the sand trio, who were supposed to be higher than Genin rank anyway. Although, bone dude technically died to his own failing body.

But yeah, it is dumb that Orochimaru's elite would lose to kids.
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Old 12-18-2007, 06:51 PM   #15
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoalaDevourer
But yeah, it is dumb that Orochimaru's elite would lose to kids.
Thank you. + Thank goodness you're not actually trying to defend that poor bit of writing. I mean, it's just such a power imbalance. Orochimaru is one of the Legendary Sannin and arguably the most fearsome of them; he was able to defeat the mighty nation-village of Konoha single-handedly (since his assistants did nothing but generate a protective energy shield), and he slew the great-but-aged 3rd Hokage. I mean, this is one tough dude! And to think that his #3, #4, #5, #6, and #7 in command were all slain by kids. That Kabuto (#2) and Sasuke (#8-->#3) were all he managed to hold on to. Pathetic. Pathetic writing.

I just read about what "the original Naruto" was on Wiki's article, and I have to say, reading that has convinced me that Naruto was probably a mistake, i.e. "the author got lucky" and created a great premise on accident. He's not the big genius everyone makes him out to be. Just my two cents. Read about "Naruto the fox who turns into sexy foxgirls" to see why. (Sounds like a primitive Wolf and Spice! ;))

Why was I on Wiki, you may ask? Looking for answers regarding "When does the first bit of filler occur in Shippuuden?" Because I remember hearing from people, "Oh God! The filler's back ALREADY!" a few weeks or months ago, and I'm already through August 2007's episodes (thru Ep28 of Shippuuden), so I know I'm getting close, and I just didn't want to mistake filler Shippuuden for true Shippuuden since I think I owe it to the author to criticize his writing skills only for those poor stories he himself comes up with and not Studio Pierrot's weak writing staff.

I never did find an answer to my question, but I did find a few spoiler things, a few confirmations of stuff we had discussed more vaporously this summer (ATTN Doppel: the red herring has been officially de-confirmed. The DNA tests are back, and he is the father), etc.
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:13 PM   #16
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
I really liked Sasori, though. My only regret is that -- given how drawn out everything else was -- they didn't spell out the specifics of how he "turned evil" and just left it up to the viewer to deduce that "he turned evil due to the loss of his parents, (a) because he missed them and (b) because it taught him that death is so bad you should do anything to defeat it, even turning yourself into a puppet."
That's probably right. Naruto seems to imply that a lack of proper parenting is a sure fire indicator of someone growing up to be a malicious ninja, and the death of Sasori's parents seem no different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
big complaint) If Sasori wanted to live forever (making him a fantastic partner for Orochimaru! ), why the fuck did he think becoming a puppet would do that for him? Yes, becoming a puppet means one's body is forever exchangeable, and thus one can body hop ad infinitum, but that would still have required his tofu roll of flesh to live forever. And ... um ... it wouldn't have. >_> That was still a human part of him, i.e. that would have still died in under 200 years (within the world of Naruto). If he found a way to make the tofu roll part of him live forever, then basically, he solved the very puzzle Orochimaru et al have been struggling with, and ... yeah. >_> I call plothole.
You'll find out that among Akatsuki, as far as immortality is concerned, Orochimaru is the "epic fail guy". He just can't seem to get it right. This should become clear in a couple arcs, after the "Root" debacle affair settles down (when Shikamaru enters the main stage). Manga-wise, this corresponds to about November 2006 ~ February 2007. I don't know how that translates into animation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoalaDevourer
But yeah, it is dumb that Orochimaru's elite would lose to kids.
Considering how weak Orochimaru is, looking at things from a bigger picture it's not surprising. When Oro was "THE" Naruto villain yeah it was absurd, but in retrospect it's surprising the Konoha ninjas struggled against them.
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:55 PM   #17
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think you seriously underestimate Orochimaru. From my viewpoint, even where I stand right now (Chiyo-baachan lifeforce <--> Gaara lifeforce), Orochimaru is the most powerful villain of the story. This is reflected in a few important facts!

1a- He just up and left Akatsuki. I don't think you understand the gravity of that decision, Doppel. That's like saying "I'm leaving the mafia" or "I'm leaving the gang." Not only is this impossible to do under even the most normal of circumstances (where you're an underling who knows nothing), but Orochimaru knew Akatsuki's entire plans. Plans, as in not just the main plan to get the nine chakra beasts but even everyone's little pet projects on the side. He knew it all. He was privy to it as a fellow brother of the organization. Therefore, leaving is not an option.

1b- He just up and left Akatsuki, part II. In this part, I explain how Akatsuki fulfills the role of "a ninja village" and remind you that whether you're an exiled ninja or not, leaving your ninja group is punishable by death. Considering that every last member of Akatsuki was born and bred a ninja, I argue that -- in spite of their treachery to their home villages -- they won't be able to shake off their psychologies that easily, and every last one of them will have that "we punish mukenin by death" mentality.

Conclusion 1: Orochimaru's got a death warrant on his head from Akatsuki.

But when you consider that he's still alive -- and doing shit! not even hiding like bin Laden! -- despite having nine of the most powerful ninja in history on his tail, this says a lot.

Possible counterpoint: Talon, you overestimate him. He's not so important that Akatsuki wants him. In fact, it's the opposite: he's so unimportant that they don't even care that he's gone.

Talon's counterpoint: Look back at what I said in 1a and 1b. Even if they did (hypothetically) think of him as being so weak, they could not afford to let him go. There's no telling what circumstances could arise between his departure date and the day they finally catch the last chakra beast. Circumstances requiring Orochimaru to divulge Akatsuki's top-secret plans to other villages in order to get what he needs to fulfill his goals. (e.g. divulging Itachi's secrets to Sasuke if Sasuke were to say, "I'll lend you my body if you let me get my revenge first." Hypothetically speaking, of course. I don't seriously expect Sasuke to do this.) No, make no mistake, Akatsuki needs him dead. That he is not dead means that he cannot be killed by them, either because (a) he has the sole power to do something that they require from him, or (b) he has the power to thwart their assassination attempts. One or the other.


Now, before I go on to Point 2 ...
Doppel: What!? You mean you're not done yet!?
Talon: No. Please still be reading.


2- Orochimaru runs a 1-man show. Akatsuki runs a 10 man, then a 9 man, and now a 7 man show. Am I looking down on them? No, of course not -- there's strength in numbers, and Orochimaru's personality prevents him from forming the bonds necessary to develop genuine allies, otherwise he'd have (and use) some too. But the fact of the matter is, what they have failed to accomplish with 10 to 9 to 7 men, he has been able to do all by himself. Conquering villages. Assassinating ____kages. Obtaining willing human sacrifices for his immortality. And holding his own against Jiraiya and Tsunade (two of the legendary sannin!) at the same time. Was he defeated? Spectacularly. But he put up a damned good fight. Which is more than Akatsuki can do -- they hide from Jiraiya like crazy. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but they've never even fought Jiraiya, have they? Which means they're probably afraid to.

3- Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru formed the "legendary sannin" who were not just famous in Konoha but throughout the entire land. Conversely, the members who make up Akatsuki are (by comparison; I'm speculating here, but hear me out) so weak that they're not even that famous!
- Deidara -- no one had ever heard of him nor recognized him
- Sasori -- only members of the Village of the Sand seemed to be intimately familiar with him
- Kisame -- he's in ANBU's bingo book, but he doesn't evoke the same awe from the ninjas that the legendary sannin do
- Itachi -- he's hyped up in Konoha, but nobody else has really mentioned his name. He's known as the ninja who slew his entire family -- but guess what? So did Kabuto, and I don't see people giving Kabuto any special accolades.

Now, I'll concede that level of fame from 20+ years ago, if that's when you vanished (as in Sasori's case), is a poor indicator of your power level 20 years later. But my point is simply to say that Orochimaru's been famous across the land for years and we have no reason to assume that he's been ineffectual in gaining power and knowledge during these decades while the Akatsuki kiddos have been. That's such a one-sided assumption, and I reject it based on all the evidence we have.

4- Jiraiya didn't seem to mind fighting Itachi and Kisame 2-against-1, remember? And he kicked their asses, and they barely escaped with their lives. Yet Jiraiya treats Orochimaru as a serious equal. You may argue "it's the personal relationship and bias" card, but I disagree that that's all it is. I think he non-biasedly realizes that Orochimaru is worth more than Itachi and Kisame combined and shouldn't be taken lightly in a fight.

FOR ALL THESE REASONS (IF YOU'VE READ THEM ;_; ) I WOULD SAY I DISAGREE.

But the beauty of opinions is, everyone's free to have their own, and I acknowledge that mine consists of a lot of personal desire built around a lot of tangible facts. I don't deny that your different desires may have their arsenal of tangible facts around which to support the theory you put forth, but ... here are my ardent reasons for disagreeing, and if you're up for the discussion, I really would like to hear (a) your disagreements with my points and/or (b) your support for your own theory.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:26 PM   #18
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
1a- He just up and left Akatsuki. I don't think you understand the gravity of that decision, Doppel. That's like saying "I'm leaving the mafia" or "I'm leaving the gang." Not only is this impossible to do under even the most normal of circumstances (where you're an underling who knows nothing), but Orochimaru knew Akatsuki's entire plans. Plans, as in not just the main plan to get the nine chakra beasts but even everyone's little pet projects on the side. He knew it all. He was privy to it as a fellow brother of the organization. Therefore, leaving is not an option.

1b- He just up and left Akatsuki, part II. In this part, I explain how Akatsuki fulfills the role of "a ninja village" and remind you that whether you're an exiled ninja or not, leaving your ninja group is punishable by death. Considering that every last member of Akatsuki was born and bred a ninja, I argue that -- in spite of their treachery to their home villages -- they won't be able to shake off their psychologies that easily, and every last one of them will have that "we punish mukenin by death" mentality.

Conclusion 1: Orochimaru's got a death warrant on his head from Akatsuki.
It's tough to address what you say without spoiling stuff, so I'll try to be really vague/general while still giving a time-worthy response.

Akatsuki has bigger fish to fry than worry about Orochimaru. It's more of a case of them considering him no longer worth their time to bother with rather than as an imminent threat that must be neutralized - if he rats them out by, say, being a parrot and joining up with Konoha, they'll kill him. Simple as that. From the revealed Akatsuki members, six could kill him without trouble and the other four - Zetsu, Kisame, Sasori, Deidara - I don't know. Deidara was one tough fudger, and a survivor at that, he's easily a good match (I know this from one of Deidara's later fights, where he went farther than anyone else did against a certain someone). Sasori I wouldn't know, I never read his fight in the manga. Deidara seems to acknowledge him as the stronger of their pair, so I'd guess he too could best Oro. Zetsu and Kisame are unknown to me, but Kisame apparently has Kyuubi-level chakra (some think he either contains, or IS the shark tailed beast) so I'd guess he stands a fair chance as well.

Meaning fly-trap face, the lowly Akatsuki spy, is the only one who would have an uncertain fight against Oro, and only because we don't know anything about him.

Right now, Oro's more of a pest if anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
Talon's counterpoint: Look back at what I said in 1a and 1b. Even if they did (hypothetically) think of him as being so weak, they could not afford to let him go. There's no telling what circumstances could arise between his departure date and the day they finally catch the last chakra beast. Circumstances requiring Orochimaru to divulge Akatsuki's top-secret plans to other villages in order to get what he needs to fulfill his goals. (e.g. divulging Itachi's secrets to Sasuke if Sasuke were to say, "I'll lend you my body if you let me get my revenge first." Hypothetically speaking, of course. I don't seriously expect Sasuke to do this.) No, make no mistake, Akatsuki needs him dead. That he is not dead means that he cannot be killed by them, either because (a) he has the sole power to do something that they require from him, or (b) he has the power to thwart their assassination attempts. One or the other.
Akatsuki's plan seems too far in motion for anything Orochimaru could say to have any sort of impact without a successful infiltration of the Akatsuki stronghold, which has yet to occur. Just because we know a hydrogen bomb's about to go off in a titanium bunker deep underground doesn't mean we can do something about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
2- Orochimaru runs a 1-man show. Akatsuki runs a 10 man, then a 9 man, and now a 7 man show. Am I looking down on them? No, of course not -- there's strength in numbers, and Orochimaru's personality prevents him from forming the bonds necessary to develop genuine allies, otherwise he'd have (and use) some too. But the fact of the matter is, what they have failed to accomplish with 10 to 9 to 7 men, he has been able to do all by himself. Conquering villages. Assassinating ____kages. Obtaining willing human sacrifices for his immortality. And holding his own against Jiraiya and Tsunade (two of the legendary sannin!) at the same time. Was he defeated? Spectacularly. But he put up a damned good fight. Which is more than Akatsuki can do -- they hide from Jiraiya like crazy. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but they've never even fought Jiraiya, have they? Which means they're probably afraid to.
There's a reason they fear Jiraiya, which was only revealed in the manga recently - he's outrageously powerful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
3- Jiraiya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru formed the "legendary sannin" who were not just famous in Konoha but throughout the entire land. Conversely, the members who make up Akatsuki are (by comparison; I'm speculating here, but hear me out) so weak that they're not even that famous!
- Deidara -- no one had ever heard of him nor recognized him
- Sasori -- only members of the Village of the Sand seemed to be intimately familiar with him
- Kisame -- he's in ANBU's bingo book, but he doesn't evoke the same awe from the ninjas that the legendary sannin do
- Itachi -- he's hyped up in Konoha, but nobody else has really mentioned his name. He's known as the ninja who slew his entire family -- but guess what? So did Kabuto, and I don't see people giving Kabuto any special accolades.
Most of Akatsuki is not very famous. Zabuza was probably better known than a good number of them. But fame doesn't necessarily correlate with ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
4- Jiraiya didn't seem to mind fighting Itachi and Kisame 2-against-1, remember? And he kicked their asses, and they barely escaped with their lives. Yet Jiraiya treats Orochimaru as a serious equal. You may argue "it's the personal relationship and bias" card, but I disagree that that's all it is. I think he non-biasedly realizes that Orochimaru is worth more than Itachi and Kisame combined and shouldn't be taken lightly in a fight.
See above.
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:55 PM   #19
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
There's a reason they fear Jiraiya, which was only revealed in the manga recently - he's outrageously powerful.
This is exactly my point though!

1a. Akatsuki fears Jiraiya because he's "outrageously powerful."
1b. Jiraiya doesn't fear Itachi + Kisame in a narrow alley because he knows he can kick their asses.

2. Jiraiya considers Orochimaru an even match.

3. Conclusion: if A is weaker than B, and B thinks C is just as strong as him, doesn't this "prove" that C has got to be stronger than A?

Admittedly, I don't know about this juicy development for Jiraiya you're talking about (man does that make me happy though , Jiraiya's my favorite!), but it seems to really lend strength to my argument.

I should say, I've seen through 32 of Shippuuden, so I discovered that Deidara is in fact still alive (interesting) and that there's some peon of Zetsu's with a swirly face who is hoping to become the newest addition to Akatsuki. Tobi, was it?
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Old 12-19-2007, 12:06 AM   #20
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

There was actually more in my post about Jiraiya, but I deleted it. Suffice to say, at no point did he ever fight Orochimaru at anything close to "full power".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xuande
Tobi, was it?
Aye. Strange kid, him.
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Old 12-19-2007, 12:39 AM   #21
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

A lot of the philosophy of Naruto is basic Japanese values.

The idea of 'A villain is bad for a reason' is very heavy in it. With the exception of a few antagonists, everyone has this arguably legitimate reason why they were bad:

Haku wanted to protected Zabuza. Neiji was mistreated and lost his dad. Gaara was unloved. [Insert bone guy's name] was lonely. Sasuke was betrayed. Sasori lost his parents.

The idea of true strength coming from protecting something/one is another major theme:

Haku saving Zabuza from Chidori (self sacrifice though). Sakura defending unconscious Naruto and Sasuke. Hokage technically beating Orochimaru. Sakura protecting Sasuke from Gaara. Naruto protecting everyone from Gaara. Team Shikamaru trying to save Sasuke.
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:38 PM   #22
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Just finished Shippuuden Episode 33. This is the one where we first see the 15 year old versions of Shino, Kiba, Hinata, and Chouji. Keyword: Hinata. What a fiiiiiiiine young woman she's turning out to be! ;) I absolutely loved the entire, entire scene involving her with Naruto -- it was complete Hinata fanservice, and as a Hinata fan I lapped up every second of it. Comedic. Adorable. Oh Hinata. We're rootin' for you, girl!

This is also the third episode in which we've seen Sai (the previous two being Shippuuden 01 and 32), but it's the first episode in which he's interacted with Naruto -- and who'd have thought it would be by starting a fight. So much for the "I'll try to smile" strategy he discussed with his instructor in the Konoha Batcave. (Just where the hell where they anyway!? Orochimaru's former lair!?)

Sai is ... a very interesting character from what little I know about him. Judging from his use of the brush, I'm guessing he's more of what you'd call a long-range fighter, making him a fantastic addition to Team Kakashi since they are sorely in need of just that, what with Naruto and Sakura both being heavy-hitting close range fighters with limited long-range abilities. It's nice to see that he's inherited Sasuke's emotionlessly black eyes. And he's got Orochimaru's gray skin, interesting. I'm ... really interested to learn more about this kid. Good job, Naruto author dude. You've created a brand new character out of thin air who I don't feel the need to make myself care about -- it just comes naturally. This is the first time you've done that in ... in a long time. Dunno how you did it, but please don't disappoint me.
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:45 PM   #23
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Ahh, you're in the root saga. Wasn't a bad arc, but could have been better. Too much in common with other shounen though. >_>
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:02 AM   #24
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

I guess.

Considering Dattebayo's latest sub is Episode 39, and I'm ready for Episode 34, I'm going to run out of "Root Saga" episodes pretty soon and have to decide between:
a) putting Naruto on a semester-long hiatus again, and letting it gain 10+ episodes before I go back to watching it, or
b) just tuning in weekly like nearly everyone else does

Frankly, I'm not sure B will be the best choice with Naruto because Naruto's one of those series I feel better about "plunging through 5-10 episodes a day." Watching 1 a week will probably "round down" effectively in my "mind's heart" to watching 0 a week, because so little actually happens in any one Naruto episode, and so even if I watch 20 episodes, if they're stretched out over 20 weeks, it probably won't feel as fun. I dunno. We'll see. Probably will just choose Letter A and say to myself, "Look, if you're really dying to watch everyone's favorite #1 unpredictable ninja in action, watch the shitty fillers so you can lay claim to otaku fame at having done it."
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:17 AM   #25
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Re: Naruto Shippuuden

Don't do the weekly watch for this show, it's murder in-between arcs.
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