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Old 01-28-2017, 02:59 PM   #3401
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It's almost as if a foreign policy issue concocted by a man with no functional interest in regional differences or people (beyond them emptying their wallets for him) and being advised by white supremacists is stupid and self-defeating.

EDIT: Although to give Trump the barest shred of credit, part of this is also driven by our political commitments: we're never going to push the Saudis too hard given that our lips are permanently grafted to their foreskin.
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:38 PM   #3402
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I was planning on doing this before Trump took office but never found the time - would people like for me to give an overview of US immigration law based on my 1.5 years of immigration experience? I feel like a lot of people don't understand US immigration policy or how it works and it makes for some very bad debates.

EDIT: Some of the foreign nationals my firm works with have been getting stuck outside the US simply because Consulates are afraid of issuing visas due to how volatile Trump has been. Most of these people are from countries with which we have great relations, like South Korea or Spain.
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:39 PM   #3403
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Yeah when it comes to the Saudis there is a distinct disconnect in the way governments respond to them. We have the same problem with the British government. We (somewhat) recently had a scandal regarding the fact weapons sold to the Saudis by the British were used in one of the many bullshit campaigns the Saudis are waging. Public outrage will almost certainly not be enough to change it. It's bullshit and immoral but it is what it is. They have too much influence.

Going to go ahead and say that you should do it anyway, Jeri. Given this situation is unlikely to resolve itself fully any time soon I feel the better informed everyone is the less chance there is for things to hit the fan in here. Which is better for everyone's sanity.
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:49 PM   #3404
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What does it mean for things to 'hit the fan in here'?
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:50 PM   #3405
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Rangeet and Shuckle having a "discussion".
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:56 PM   #3406
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oh no
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Old 01-28-2017, 05:02 PM   #3407
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US immigration law is messy and complicated so it'll probably take me a while but I'll throw something together and put it in a separate thread.

I'm reading through the order right now and picking out some of the nastier parts.

Just a general note about this - the executive order itself does not actually ban anyone from entering the United States yet. It just sets up a framework for Trump to do so if he sees fit. As far as I can tell, the seven country list is not actually set in stone as of this post, but he could pull the trigger at any time and the order gives him carte blanche to ban basically anyone he pleases. However, CBP is staffed almost entirely by idiots and they're jumping the gun and not admitting people who have every legal right to enter. That said, when it does come into effect, it will apply to Green Card holders, regardless of how long they've held a Green Card, and anyone with a valid visa that's not diplomatic (A, G, C-2 and NATO). This also includes spouses of US citizens and even potentially US citizen children born abroad!

Quote:
Sec. 8. Visa Interview Security. (a) The Secretary of State shall immediately suspend the Visa Interview Waiver Program and ensure compliance with section 222 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1222, which requires that all individuals seeking a nonimmigrant visa undergo an in-person interview, subject to specific statutory exceptions.
This is a really, really big problem. US consulates in India (and some other countries I suppose?) set up interview waiver programs to deal with the immense workload thrust on the consulates by the huge number of people flowing through them to the United States. Now that Trump demands everyone be interviewed, even if they have an already issued visa or approved status from USCIS (the government agency handling immigration matters internally). This is going to triple appointment wait times, which are already 2-3 months out as it is. Companies are going to see a huge number of their employees stranded overseas, waiting for visas. The paragraph below is supposed to be a solution but...

Quote:
(b) To the extent permitted by law and subject to the availability of appropriations, the Secretary of State shall immediately expand the Consular Fellows Program, including by substantially increasing the number of Fellows, lengthening or making permanent the period of service, and making language training at the Foreign Service Institute available to Fellows for assignment to posts outside of their area of core linguistic ability, to ensure that non-immigrant visa-interview wait times are not unduly affected.
...the process for becoming a consular officer is a multi-year, multi-step process (which I did the first two of in a 3 month period). You can't just wave a magic wand and hire 3,000 new officers. They need to be screened, tested, trained and hired to even put them in a reception window, and lowering the quality of our consular officer training just so we can get more bodies through the consulate represents more of a national security risk than issuing a visa to someone who has already been issued one (and vetted previously by no fewer than two government agencies, might I add).

Quote:
Sec. 9. Visa Validity Reciprocity. The Secretary of State shall review all nonimmigrant visa reciprocity agreements to ensure that they are, with respect to each visa classification, truly reciprocal insofar as practicable with respect to validity period and fees, as required by sections 221(c) and 281 of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1201(c) and 1351, and other treatment. If a country does not treat United States nationals seeking nonimmigrant visas in a reciprocal manner, the Secretary of State shall adjust the visa validity period, fee schedule, or other treatment to match the treatment of United States nationals by the foreign country, to the extent practicable.
This is fair, but obnoxious, especially considering I can see some countries getting pissy with Trump and his big mouth and pulling back visa reciprocity agreements, which just screws everyone.

Quote:
Sec. 10. Transparency and Data Collection. (a) To be more transparent with the American people, and to more effectively implement policies and practices that serve the national interest, the Secretary of Homeland Security, in consultation with the Attorney General, shall, consistent with applicable law and national security, collect and make publicly available within 180 days, and every 180 days thereafter:
tl;dr let's doxx anyone we even suspect of doing something bad and let the lynch mobs have them

It would be a different matter altogether if he was only disallowing the issuance of visas to a specific list of countries, but this executive order basically allows him to ban anyone and everyone he feels he doesn't want in the US from coming to our soil. And since CBP is a ridiculous overblown and misfunded jobs program, officers will probably end up even harassing US citizens that even seem Muslim-y (or like a Mexican for that matter) because none of them are actually trained or understand US immigration law.

This will be a lot of fun for everyone! I hope you all like labor crises because we're about to have a big one.
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Old 01-28-2017, 05:23 PM   #3408
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...the process for becoming a consular officer is a multi-year, multi-step process (which I did the first two of in a 3 month period). You can't just wave a magic wand and hire 3,000 new officers. They need to be screened, tested, trained and hired to even put them in a reception window, and lowering the quality of our consular officer training just so we can get more bodies through the consulate represents more of a national security risk than issuing a visa to someone who has already been issued one (and vetted previously by no fewer than two government agencies, might I add).
How does this even work with the federal hiring freeze, assuming actual good faith and not fucking over random brown people to soothe the fears of Texan mothers who are more likely to blow their own brains out after a night of drinking then be killed in a terrorist attack?
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Old 01-28-2017, 05:34 PM   #3409
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How does this even work with the federal hiring freeze, assuming actual good faith and not fucking over random brown people to soothe the fears of Texan mothers who are more likely to blow their own brains out after a night of drinking then be killed in a terrorist attack?
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Old 01-28-2017, 08:02 PM   #3410
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Double Post for important update: This ban is so poorly written that it not only is being applied to Green Card holders but dual citizens who hold passports from a banned country.

This means that U.S. Citizens can be banned from entering the United States
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Old 01-28-2017, 10:23 PM   #3411
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Double Post for important update: This ban is so poorly written that it not only is being applied to Green Card holders but dual citizens who hold passports from a banned country.

This means that U.S. Citizens can be banned from entering the United States
I thought the ban was being applied to non-US citizens with dual citizenship: e.g. if you hold UK/Iranian citizenship, the latter overrides the former.

Also, a judge just ordered a hold on deportations for anyone currently in the US that could be affected, although anyone outside the country is still fucked.
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Old 01-28-2017, 11:02 PM   #3412
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>I thought the ban was being applied to non-US citizens with dual citizenship: e.g. if you hold UK/Iranian citizenship, the latter overrides the former.


Oh yeah nevermind looks like I was wrong.

Whoops sorry! Lots of misinformation flying around right now.

But it still stands that people who are cleared to legally enter the United States and have been vetted by our government agencies on multiple occasions to be granted permanent residency, i.e. Green Card holders can be banned from the US. Whoops so much for rights!
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:19 AM   #3413
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Oh yeah nevermind looks like I was wrong.

Whoops sorry! Lots of misinformation flying around right now.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/28/politi...ban/index.html

It's a shitshow because none of the agencies responsible appear to have been meaningfully consulted beforehand and the order was dropped with no grace period to actually figure out what's going on.

On the bright side, only 4 years to go with this idiocy, assuming Trump doesn't find a way to do something so hilariously awful that he finally gives the GOP the opportunity to ratfuck him with a plausible casus belli.
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:38 AM   #3414
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On the bright side, only 4 years to go with this idiocy, assuming Trump doesn't find a way to do something so hilariously awful that he finally gives the GOP the opportunity to ratfuck him with a plausible casus belli.
It may be because of how personally it affects me, but I feel like today's events are more than enough to justify this. If a man has a wife, children, house, car, dog, job, and everything else in America, and if he has none of that in one of the countries on the list (say Syria) ... and if this same man happens to hold a green card, and has been living in America for the past 40 years ... and if when he moved here from Syria he was only a boy, 16 years old ... if his English is now better than his Arabic, if his identity is now more American than Syrian ... it is balls CRAZY to think it is okay to surprise this man with a permanent detention in Syria and all because he was unlucky enough to be visiting there when Trump signed this executive order into law.

I'd like to think this can't happen, but things are going to get super fucked super fast if this ban escalates towards those who have dual U.S.-{other country} citizenship. For example, Iran confers Iranian citizenship to both children born of Iranian fathers as well as to women married to Iranian men. So if an Iranian man settles down in America, marries, has kids ... it wouldn't just be the man Trump's organization wants to deport, it'd be his American wife and kids too. Lots of people proclaiming on Reddit that "this can't happen" and that you can't refuse a U.S. citizen entry to America, but ... ... I don't know, guys. Shit's getting super fucked. I would not put it past this administration to try this. And if they do ... GOP, DNC, I don't care: I feel like for any group of rational, family-oriented Americans that this would be Blastoise's casus belli.
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:48 AM   #3415
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https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/co...dent/?sort=top

Federal Court has overturned Trump's executive order banning immigration



Holy. Shit.

edit: Okay so, kind of, at least

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Old 01-29-2017, 01:05 AM   #3416
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It may be because of how personally it affects me, but I feel like today's events are more than enough to justify this.
[...]
I don't know, guys. Shit's getting super fucked. I would not put it past this administration to try this. And if they do ... GOP, DNC, I don't care: I feel like for any group of rational, family-oriented Americans that this would be Blastoise's casus belli.
This won't be it unless they start executing detainees in the JFK entry terminal.

1. It's early in the administration, they will play it as the POTUS and Co. finding their sea legs because outsiders, etc.

2. People on Twitter are gleefully retweeting Mike Pence and Paul Ryan's tweets from last year about how the Muslim ban goes against everything we stand for, in contrast to how they're currently trying to spin this as "well it's not a Muslim ban": at best expect them to stand aside and let Trump and the courts tear each others' throats out, but they're not going to demonstrate any evidence of owning a spine in the near future because:

3. Remember what Trump campaigned on, and what his inaugural address was on: Washington is controlled by incestuous elites that can only be broken and cast down by an outsider with the ability to throw his weight around and not have to take their shit. To Trump's followers any Republican who even hints at impeachment less than a month in pretty much validates this narrative, and no sane GOP legislator wants to bring that down on their heads over a few green carders getting fucked, because:

4. As Americans there are things that we do to each other, and things we do to other people (and for your standard "build the wall" Trumpstaffel bumblefuck green carders are "other people"). If you doubt this go ahead and read the Twitter responses/article comments to EO articles from today and watch in awe as your faith in your fellow man shrinks precipitously.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:19 AM   #3417
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Jeri, you mentioned that visa wait times might jump from the ~3 months that they are already to 9 months or more. Wouldn't this catastrophically hit tourism?
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:21 AM   #3418
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Jeri, you mentioned that visa wait times might jump from the ~3 months that they are already to 9 months or more. Wouldn't this catastrophically hit tourism?
Congratulations, you have demonstrated more thought on possible consequences than anyone in the Trump administration.
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Old 01-29-2017, 01:40 AM   #3419
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I don't even fucking know what to say anymore.

This is disgusting, but completely unsurprising. Trump's bigotry is undeniable, at this point.
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Old 01-29-2017, 02:11 AM   #3420
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Also, Twitter surfing for more information I have been reminded that Grover Norquist still taints humanity with his presence, and that one of his major advocay issues is...vaping.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:33 AM   #3421
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Jeri, you mentioned that visa wait times might jump from the ~3 months that they are already to 9 months or more. Wouldn't this catastrophically hit tourism?
Sure will! India is a country that is not on the visa waiver program, which allows nationals of certain countries to enter the US without the need for a trip to a consulate or embassy. It's number 4 on the list for number of B (tourist/business) visas issued in 2015. Forcing absolutely everyone to go through a lengthy vetting process will significantly slow down the consulate's ability to issue these relatively low-risk visas.

>Also, Twitter surfing for more information I have been reminded that Grover Norquist still taints humanity with his presence, and that one of his major advocay issues is...vaping.

Is the neckbeard dollar a real thing now?
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Old 01-29-2017, 09:01 AM   #3422
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Vaping is a good thing.

Fight me.
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Old 01-29-2017, 10:50 AM   #3423
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I feel like this is an opportune time to quote a small bit of Screw The Nether, spoilered for what some will consider obnoxious formatting:

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WELCOME TO HELLLLLL, WEATHER'S GREAT HERE!
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Old 01-29-2017, 11:46 AM   #3424
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Couple of things:

Trump kicked joint chiefs of staff off his national security council and added Steve Bannon.

Steve Bannon told The Daily Beast this in a past interview:

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“Lenin,” he answered, “wanted to destroy the state, and that’s my goal too. I want to bring everything crashing down, and destroy all of today’s establishment.” Bannon was employing Lenin’s strategy for Tea Party populist goals
Source: http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...-leninist.html
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Old 01-29-2017, 12:08 PM   #3425
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How much power can a President actually wield via executive order a) legally and b) practically? Like surely legally speaking they can't be a carte blanche to bypass the legislative branch whenever the executive feels like it.
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