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Old 05-01-2011, 06:06 PM   #76
Talon87
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Episode 04:
Watched Episode 04 via Nutbladder early tonight after re-watching Episode 03 with Triad. All I can say is ...

HOLY SHIT, YEAH! THIS IS GONNA BE AWESOME!

The one thing I'm really worried about is ...
Spoiler: show
... this turning out to be a repeat of the Espoir. It's conceivable that some of the guys Kaiji has teamed up with will double-cross him if Ohtsuki offers them bribes during the game, once he catches on that he's been had, in order to avoid being rendered penniless by Kaiji and the others. I especially don't trust the dude Kaiji had to work real hard to convince to join the group, but I also don't trust Miyoshi since he seems way too weak-willed. The others seem like faceless small fries so I don't expect betrayal to come from any of them, not that it couldn't.

Provided that those fears are unfounded, this arc is going to be BRO EPIC. I cannot wait to see how things unfold in episodes 05 and 06. I imagine the arc will finish either with 06 or 07.

This vibe I'm feeling ... it's like in the middle of the Espoir arc! Indeed, what made so many of the S1 stories so awesome was that Kaiji had bros he was working alongside towards a common goal with. Like on the human horseracing I-beams. Like with his cheering squad during E-Card. We needed bros. And now S2 has delivered them to us. This is going to be so fucking epic, I hope!
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Old 05-02-2011, 06:10 AM   #77
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Yeah, Ohtsuki is displaying high levels of dickery (the shot of him swimming in money said it all), so I hope he gets his.

Although they never revealed the method of cheating, looks like your theory is correct, since he always has to be between his two goons.

Also, what's up with the girl with the really short skirt walking through the boiler room reciting the Kaiji loser speech?
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Old 05-02-2011, 09:03 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
Although they never revealed the method of cheating, looks like your theory is correct, since he always has to be between his two goons.
Yeah, I'm really confused right now by Kaiji's apparent revelation. I went back and looked at Miyoshi's book and nothing jumped out at me other than the fact that Miyoshi had circled pairs of hands diagonally, which I assume indicates dealer hands. I didn't notice any patterns in terms of numbers showing up across rows, across columns, or moving diagonally.

As for Kaiji's cubic revelation, I think I may have just figured it out. But if it really is this, then (a) this is a pretty fucking ballsy stunt of Ohtsuki to try and pull and (b) this is a really simple cheat:

Major discussion I'd like you to read follows, but if you'd like to formulate your own theories about how the game is rigged and not be biased by mine, then avoid this until Kaiji reveals how the game is rigged:
Spoiler: show
Kaiji seemed to be fascinated by the fact that dice are cubic. "No matter how you look at them, ..." he said, trailing off before rising to his feet in anger. I didn't get it at the time, but this morning as I was replying to you it occurred to me: You can only see, at most, three faces of a die at any time from any angle.

It may be possible that Ohtsuki has rigged dice which are missing certain numbers (like 1's and 2's). Since 1 and 6, 2 and 5, and 3 and 4 lie on opposite sides, it'd be very simple to replace the missing 1's with 6's and the missing 2's with 5's. If you did so, you could be certain that no matter where someone was watching from, they would never see both 6's or both 5's at once. I considered that he could make the dice just have 4's, 5's, and 6's, but I think he needs to have 3's on there as well to at least give the semblance of losing some of the time.

If you look at Ohtsuki's rolls, he almost never gets a 1 or a 2 as his winning number. If the dice were truly random, you'd at least expect to see this happen one out of every six hands (ignoring triples and 1-2-3s and 4-5-6s). Also important to note, Ohtsuki seems to get 4-5-6 pretty often but he's never gotten a 1-2-3. (Or at least, he never has gotten one in Miyoshi's handbook. Even if he has gotten them on occasion, it would still be the case that he gets disproportionately many 4-5-6s to disproportionately few 1-2-3s.) Since the odds of getting a 4-5-6 should be equal to those of getting a 1-2-3, this is pretty weird. Ohtsuki could bullshit, especially stupider or more gullible people, by claiming that he just has naturally good luck and too bad for everybody else: but we'd know he's full of shit.

Here's a sample of Ohtsuki's hands according to Miyoshi's handbook:
Screencap 1:
4-5-6 on turn one
5-x-x on turn one
3-x-x on turn two
4-x-x on turn one
3-x-x on turn one
4-x-x on turn one
3-x-x on turn two

Screencap 2:
4-x-x on turn one
3-x-x on turn one
2-x-x on turn two
5-x-x on turn one
4-5-6 on turn one
no hand this turn
3-x-x on turn two

Screencap 3:
5-x-x on turn one
4-5-6 on turn one
no hand this turn
6-x-x on turn two
3-x-x on turn two
1-x-x on turn two
3-x-x on turn two

Screencap 4:
6-x-x on turn one
4-5-6 on turn one
3-x-x on turn one
5-x-x on turn one
6-x-x on turn two
3-x-x on turn one
no hand this turn
4-x-x on turn two
4-x-x on turn two

This reveals two final things to address. First is the fact that Ohtsuki never has to worry about not getting a legal hand by turn two. He always does. Other players would expect to have to win on their third hand at least one in every four attempts. (You have a 50/50 shot of a legal hand each turn, so the odds of not having a legal hand twice in a row are 1/2 times 1/2, or 1/4.) That is to say, if Ohtsuki was rolling randomly, we'd expect at least one or two of his legal rolls to have occurred on turn 3, even if he had the world's best luck! But what if he didn't? What if he was cheating? Then it all becomes clear. If the dice have got two 6's and two 5's printed on them, then obviously you're going to get doubles sooner. That's because you're now rolling three dice that each have the same number printed on two faces twice (two 6's, two 5's), so you'd have to have the world's WORST luck to bust. Maybe that's what the /'s meant in the Miyoshi's handbook? (I read those as meaning "no hand this turn." Maybe those are Ohtsuki's busts?) But even if they are, they are still retardedly few and far between.

The second thing these rolls reveal is that Ohtsuki probably doesn't use his rigged dice every hand. If he did, that'd be pretty stupid of him. That would explain why on some hands he gets a 2 as his winning number. (Notice that he still never gets a 1! Could just be random chance, that. Who knows. My mistake, he gets one 1 in Screencap 3. ) That could also explain the /'s in Miyoshi's notebook if /'s represent busts and not passes.

But anyway, yeah. I think that's all that's happening: Ohtsuki is using the most primitive of rigged dice techniques -- having the same favorable numbers printed on the dice multiple times whilst having the least favorable numbers be the ones which are overwritten -- and is counting on the dim light, the intensity of the matches, the stupidity of the players, etc. to all factor in to nobody challenging him to let them see all the faces of the dice on his winning hands.

Basically, had Kaiji thrown a fit rather than cry and despair when Ohtsuki got the 4-5-6 in Episode 03, perhaps he'd have had a chance at grabbing the dice (doubtful, Ohtsuki was closer and would have probably made a mad dash for them) and then discovering that they were rigged. But oh well: what's done is done. Now the 45's just need to band together and milk Ohtsuki for all he's worth!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
Also, what's up with the girl with the really short skirt walking through the boiler room reciting the Kaiji loser speech?
I dunno. She's not very pretty imo, and she quotes some pretty non-epic or very negative lines, too, so I really don't get the point behind her segments. However, I do recognize these segments from Season 1: Triad included them on occasion, and iirc the last one of these in Season 1 was also the one where Fukumoto came on and talked about how the studio had greenlit Kaiji S2. So I think it's just the same thing as before, only Nutbladder keeps them in whereas Triad edits them out. Shrug. Would have liked Triad to keep them in for completion's sake, but I can't really blame Triad for cutting them out either since they're pretty dumb and irrelevant.

Last edited by Talon87; 05-02-2011 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 05-02-2011, 02:55 PM   #79
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I support Triad on cutting it out too. Segments such as Go! Go! Igo! For Hikaru no Go actually serve a purpose, since it's teaching the viewer about the game they're watching, but this, wtf? It's just some broad strolling through a boiler room calling the viewer a failure. That's not very nice!

Come to think of it, Go! Go! Mahjong! would have been even more useful for Akagi. After all, they often delved into complex strategies that a non Mahjong enthusiast wouldn't understand. Unlike Hikaru no Go, where it was not necessary at all to know anything about Go. They'd just say stuff like, "I can't beat him, he's too strong! *incomprehensible lines of white and black stones*"
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Old 05-04-2011, 01:04 PM   #80
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Well there's a NEW group out called Underwater-Commie that's even faster and supposedly even shittier than Nutbladder, and subbed episode 5 already. Watch it if you dare ...
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:01 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
Well there's a NEW group out called Underwater-Commie that's even faster and supposedly even shittier than Nutbladder, and subbed episode 5 already. Watch it if you dare ...
Reading their weblog entry for Kaiji, it sounds like they are some of the Anons on Triad's Kaiji S2 posts who were saying, "We like you guys, but goddamn you are slow. Might just think about doing this ourselves ..." Sounds like some/all of them were part of this group and sure enough they've taken action.

I'll volunteer to check out the sub and report back to you what I think about its translational quality. I'll be watching specifically for the grammar and vocab since this is an Ep01 release by an unknown fansub group as far as we're concerned (even though it's really Ep05 >.>). I would rather have experienced this episode with Triad or Nutbladder, but whatever. I will not be following three groups for one show XD, so here's how it's gonna boil down:

If terrible: reject them, stick with Nutbladder for speed and Triad for quality
If decent: accept them, reject Nutbladder for speed, stick with Triad for quality
If really very good: accept them, consider asking them to go back and do Episode 01-04 too

I doubt we'd be that fortunate to have the third situation be the case , but you never know.
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:07 PM   #82
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Underwater collaborated with #mahjong for Saki, so I can vouch that they're at least...legible. Commie I used for various releases but I have no idea how good a release the two will bring to Kaiji.

As for me, I'm in no huge hurry for Triad...I need to finish off Tegami Bachi, anyway.
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Old 05-04-2011, 05:31 PM   #83
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Just finishing up Episode 05 right now with Underwater-Commie. Friend called me, so I had to pause. (Am thru 18:55 of 22:41.) And what I'll say is ...

HOLY COW, BEST EPISODE YET! XD


This is Cryji Kaiji, my friends. This is the series we came to know and love last fall. This is Kaiji at its best. WOW. Wow oh wow oh wow. Episode 05 is amazing, and I cannot WAIT to see how Episode 06 will play out.

Now, as for what you're waiting for: sub assessment. From what I listened intently to (which was the first five minutes; then I got so swept away by the greatness of this episode that I only focused on key phrases here or there), I have to say that this may be one of the best translations yet. It strikes a most excellent balance between accuracy of translation and natural intelligibility in the English language. I'd place it at or slightly beneath Triad for accuracy and I'd place it at the very top of the pack for best choice of English words to represent various Japanese ideas or phrases.

Honestly? I'd be happy following these guys for the rest of the way. Probably can't do that -- probably won't be able to not at least collect Triad's S2 as a back-up -- but it looks like Nutbladder just got pwned provided our submersible Soviet friends can keep this level of translation and speedsubbing up. Three cheers for Underwater-Commie!

But wow. This episode had so much happen. I paused it once at like 14 minutes in thinking I was already nearing close to the 19 minute mark. This episode really gives you your 22 minutes' worth! Okay, now I better quit talking it up or else you all are going to get your hopes too high and then not like it. ^^; To try and bring you back down to Earth ... it's not like Episode 19 of Season 1 (final E-Card match w/ result) but I'd still personally place it high up on the list. Best of Season 2 by far.

Mini-spoiler: no, the face-off with Ohtsuki hasn't happened yet, if that's what you're wondering. It's all lead-up. 100% lead-up. Amazing, epic lead-up.
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:51 AM   #84
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I thought it was kinda funny how Underwater-Commie tried to sub the screaming in the opening video.
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Old 05-05-2011, 08:49 AM   #85
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It's so unintelligible, but a lot of the words they've attempted I think they've gotten right. They must have very good ears.

Anything else you'd like to discuss besides the OP? Clearly you've watched it. And there was so much that happened in this episode!

Spoiler: show
1. We met Ishida's son. An entire conversation right there.

2. The beer-in-face scene. Amazing.

3. The bullying Kaiji and the others endured, culminating in Kaiji's near-death experience with the steam shovel excavator.

4. The confrontation with Ohtsuki on gambling night, with Kaiji's no-limits proposal! Insanely epic!

5. We met the #2 ranked person in the entire Teiai corporation! WOW! I never even imagined that'd happen so soon! And he's taken a personal interest in KaijI! WHAT THE HELL!? I imagine this is Kaiji's ticket out of that dump. (After all, the one-day-of-freedom thing they're fighting for so desperately isn't going to absolve them of their debts. But if this guy takes a personal liking to Kaiji, he may just buy Kaiji, paying off Kaiji's debt but more or less getting to tell him what to do.)

So much happened all in one episode. And all you can say is "lol OP sub"? C'mon, let's talk!
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Old 05-05-2011, 11:37 AM   #86
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When Kaiji picked up the beer and asked, "So I can do whatever I want with this?" I was thinking, "Oh, he's going to share it with all his friends." AND THEN ... so awesome.

The need to put Ohtsuki in his place is reaching critical mass. God, I hope Kaiji owns him so badly. He even had THE PINK GLOW OF ULTIMATE DICKERY.



Tonegawa was also mentioned in this episode. I hope we get to see him again some day, burn mark on his face and all. He was introduced as an Akagi-like master of psychology, and then is revealed to be a cheater. After that though, I can't tell you how much The Burning Kneeling endeared his character to me. "Get it away. Get that machine away! I'll do it myself!" The Burning Kneeling was one of the most insane moments in all of anime.
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Old 05-05-2011, 02:06 PM   #87
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Agreed. Whether he's truly that loyal to Hyoudou or whether he's just really proud and is not able/willing to have anyone look down upon him, I don't know, but Tonegawa definitely earned points for that scene. Even if he's an awful person insofar as Human Horseracing went, not to mention any number of other things he's probably done offscreen. Awful person though he may be, that scene was endearing.

Totally didn't remember that Andou had the pink aura around him when he acted all "guh-huh-huh :3" like a retard-dickhead. Good memory. :o And yeah: Ohtsuki needs to get hosed bad. I am hoping that Kaiji and the others basically force Ohtsuki into owing them 5+ million Perica, enough to pay their way out for a day (at 500,000 each x 6 people) and to have some cash on the side to do who knows what with. I don't know how it could happen short of a blind fit of madness on his part, but it'd be great if Ohtsuki lost it and actually had to pay up his entire life's savings in the camp. (The ~10million figure they alluded to.) Would be even more awesome if the Teiai head honchos were watching the bout and, after Kaiji and the others won, some suits just show up unannounced and escort Ohtsuki away to be "dealt with." Or at the very least demoted him there on the spot and appointed someone else to be the new foreman.
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:03 PM   #88
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Got all the Kaiji eps I'm behind on. Gonna micro-blog this stretch!
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Old 05-10-2011, 03:14 PM   #89
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You're really going to enjoy 04. And then you're really going to enjoy 05. I can't wait for 06 to come out!
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:45 PM   #90
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I'm half-way through Episode 3 and I can already see how this is ending. Kaiji is celebrating his defeat of Ohtsuki and the round isn't over yet. Seeing as Kaiji already dared karma by saying Ohtsuki is a kindred spirit at heart, and knowing his fiendish ways from the discussions in here, I can tell this isn't going to end well.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:47 PM   #91
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I'm through Episode 03, will stop for today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcsweeney View Post
I actually have no idea how you're supposed to cheat in a game where you throw god damn dice into a bowl. Maybe Ohtsuki was thrown in prison, and the only thing he had in his cell to entertain himself was some dice, and for 10 long years he trained himself every hour of every day to do a perfect dice throw.

Although I guess if he did that, he wouldn't be in an underground labour camp, but would be owning up craps tables and seedy, Yakuza sponsored Monopoly games.
An idea came into my head. I'm not sure if Kaiji figured out how they cheat by 4/5, but my idea...

Spoiler: show
Magnetized dice. If the sides are magnetized in the right spot, they'll come up with the same faces each time so long as they're thrown relatively close to one another. So long as Ohtsuki and his goon swap the dice in between passing the bowl, they'll be able to get away with doubles and triples like it's no one's business.
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:01 PM   #92
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You should really go back and re-read all posts written in this thread (spoiler tags and all) except of course the ones which spoiler-talk about Episodes 04 and 05. If you do, you'll find (for instance) that your theory and one of BBB's first theories about the dice mesh pretty well. Might be fun for you to see who you agree with, who you disagree with, etc. Even more so as you watch future episodes, to see how right or how wrong we all were and to see how on the ball, as a community three-strong (and now four-strong with your contribution) our collective predictions were.

You should of course also go back through and read all of the posts once you finish 05. I know we'd all love to get replies from you, and I know we'd all love to bounce our ideas off of yours once you've had your chance to formulate them.

Finally ... really? 4:03pm, "I'm going to get started! " 7:45pm, "I'm halfway through not last week's, not the week before that's, but the week before the week before last week's episode." 8:47pm (an hour later!), "I just finished that episode I was on." What's up? The episode so exciting you have to pause it every five seconds and go to the bathroom?

Nah, I'm just hasslin' you a tiny bit only because I really was thinking you'd get through 05 today and I would have loved to read your excitement and theories. 03 is good, sure, but 04 is way better and 05 better still. You really ain't seen nothin' yet. Look forward to it.
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Old 05-10-2011, 08:11 PM   #93
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Yeah, I'm bouncing all over the place, between Kaiji, BVS, Artemis Fowl, work and baseball. It's tough because the exam I have tomorrow is for a new teacher who replaced my old teacher one week before the end of term because she went went AWOL in Hungary to tend to her grandfather, the patriarch of the family (she is very unstable when emotional issues come up) so he had to write up a new course curriculum in two days, and I'm having trouble organizing the information and prioritizing what I need to read.

Also, I want to watch the Giants game tonight since Andres Torres and Mark De La Rosa are back in the line-up, but it'll eat a huge chunk of time. >.<;

I'll read through the old posts, I'm just through the Episode 03 ones.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:46 PM   #94
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I gave in and watched 04 and 05.

Boy, did they get my blood pumping. I think it was a good thing for my book-work! But I really want to see Episode 06 now, and I hope we don't have a repeat of Espoir where the seemingly more sly sheep (Maeda) doesn't go and screw things up for Kaiji.

I like how Ohtsuki's transformation from gentle foreman to bastich boy happened when he cracked his neck. I don't know why, but it was a really dramatic way to signal his change in behaviour.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:57 PM   #95
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What did you think of the epic beer scene?

EDIT: Sigh. It's confirmed, guys: Triad is using a different translator for Kaiji S2 than they used for Kaiji S1 or Akagi. Labaamen is still listed as a TL in their active staff roster, but:

1) they've added a new name, Dragosmore
2) LordBrian references this Dragosmore in the newest blog update (for Kaiji S2 episode 04)
3) and he specifically says that because Dragosmore wasn't on hand, he couldn't get this short comic translated. In other words, Labaamen is gone. Though they still have him listed as active, he is not even around to be able to translate small things for LordBrian.

Sad times. But at least this explains the questionable changes in translation character and quality.

EDIT 2: Looks like Nutbladder has finally released their ep05 (not bothering), but they've also released their ep06 release. Hmm. Getting it, but will put off watching until tomorrow so as to give Underwater-Commie a chance to surprise me by the time I wake up. Nutbladder weren't terrible, after all -- we've been through this! Or I guess I've put us through this since I'm the one who keeps bringing it up! -- but Underwater-Commie were definitely really, really good. As I said last week, I'd be happy to drop Nutbladder completely provided Underwater-Commie can release ahead of them or at least within a day of them. But if Kaiji episode 05 was just a one-time thing of theirs? Then there's no point in waiting and, come tomorrow afternoon, I'll go ahead with Nutbladder's release.

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Old 05-10-2011, 11:58 PM   #96
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I figured Kaiji wouldn't take it. That was straight out Akagi-style "comfort is the cancer of the heart" bribing Ohtsuki tried to pull. I wasn't expecting him to chuck it in Ohtsuki's face, but it was hilariously appropriate.

What surprised me most in that episode was the failed assassination with the steam shovel. Now, I knew Ohtsuki was mad, but that was rotten. Repulsively rotten.
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Old 05-11-2011, 09:58 AM   #97
McSweeney
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Dragosmore is a name that I recognize, so he's not new, but I don't remember what capacity he was working in before. Maybe assistant translator or something, taking over as the head honcho now?
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:07 AM   #98
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Hmm. Well, whatever his relation to the group, I can't say I find his translations as good as Labaamen's. (Whose translations, while good, were not on the god-tier level that Strato's were for a.f.k. Heck, I just googled "a.f.k. strato" to see what hits I'd get and look at what high praise I found from him from a non-Talon87: "Strato's work for a.f.k. is pretty much the best in the entire field of fansubbing. Nobody else comes close to his grasp of both the Japanese and English languages.") So ... I may actually at this point consider not archiving Triad's run of Kaiji. We'll see. It'll depend on various factors like (a) can Underwater-Commie release competitively against Nutbladder? and (b) will Underwater-Commie go back and sub episodes 1-4? If the answer to both these questions is "no," then I'll resume the Nutbladder+Triad double-plan. If the answer to both these questions is "yes," I may just get Underwater-Commie's alone and that be it.

Have you watched Episode 06 yet, Mcsweeney? I'm still holding out for Underwater-Commie like I mentioned last night. I did sneak a peek at the first five minutes or so, but then I promptly shut it off: I was way too tired (1am local) and I really want to save the experience, if possible, for U-C.
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Old 05-11-2011, 10:50 AM   #99
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Oh damn, I didn't even know that it was out! I'm sorry but ... I MUST. I must delve into this Nutbladder nonsense to get my fix.

Yeah, I agree about the afk guy doing Haruhi. No other group even tried to compete with him, despite Haruhi's explosive popularity. What's even more impressive is, it was rumoured that he did the ENTIRE fansub by himself, not just the translation. Not sure if that's true or not ... maybe his legend got out of control and became a tall tale?
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Old 05-11-2011, 12:02 PM   #100
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Hmm maybe I should wait for Underwater-Commie in the future. The "thou" shit is pretty annoying. Reminds me of Final Fantasy 6: "Mr. Thou! Mr. Thou!"

All I'll say about this episode until the others see it: I was thinking the same thing that the spectators were grumbling about, but then ... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
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