03-14-2012, 05:36 PM | #26 |
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>I believe it's true because there's no other logical explanation for it's existence
Ladies and gentlemen, we're done here. /thread |
03-14-2012, 07:01 PM | #27 |
Double Dragon
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Since my question has gone unanswered... what do Mormons actually believe in? Because one of the things that I have seen is that they believe that African-Americans having black skin is actually a curse, since they didn't take a side in a celestial war long ago. If this is true, then I cannot take this religion seriously. Because any religion that discriminates against another race of people really just isn't right.
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03-14-2012, 07:05 PM | #28 |
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Since he won't answer;
So long as you follow essential Christian morals to a tee and never break them; -You become a god upon death -You get your own planet to rule over as that god -Jesus visited the native americans after his resurrection -Jesus and Satan are brothers, Satan rebelled because God chose Jesus to be the messiah and not him as his ideas for peace were through domination |
03-14-2012, 07:34 PM | #29 | |
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God the father Satan the older brother Jesus the younger brother QED, Kishimoto is a secret Japanese Mormon.
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03-14-2012, 07:38 PM | #30 |
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What a hilarious and yet apt connection. I always knew Kishi was up to no good... but maybe that's just his over usage of deus ex machina.
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03-15-2012, 11:12 PM | #31 | |
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Spoiler: show Spoiler: show Spoiler: show (well not really but my only doubt about what he might say comes from panel 3 of that comic. The Old Testament is the only thing in the Bible that's out of date.) deo: If you cut me in on the profits I'll be a witness to anything! Claim that you saw airplane squirrels that spelled out God's message to fundraise? Sure, I saw it too!
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03-16-2012, 03:22 AM | #32 |
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03-16-2012, 01:36 PM | #33 | |
Silver LO
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Twilight was a better read. And more realistic. |
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03-18-2012, 01:29 PM | #35 | |||
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Spoiler: show As far as the alleged view regarding blacks- I have no idea where that came from, it's never been taught to me in all my years as a Mormon, and any speculation as to why a race is colored a certain way, has nothing to do with the Church, or our Beliefs, and holds no meaning in the eternal scheme of things. My own speculation, which I will without hesitation tell you could very well be wrong, is that Blacks are the descendents of Cain, who was marked by God for killing his brother Abel. The only reference to blacks our scripture gives, is that the Seed of Laman and Lemuel, brothers to Nephi, were cursed with black skin to differentiate them from the Nephites, that the wicked and the righteous would not mix, just as the Hebrews were told not to marry "strange wives." Perhaps God did so to play off human nature to keep them apart- but it does in no way invalidate them as people. After a period of separation, missionaries were sent to the cursed Lamanites, to bring them to the truth, allowing them (who were believers) to join with the Nephites - and then there was no segregation, and over time the curse was lifted from among them. Quote:
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But considering how you (all) continue to refuse to believe anything I say, regardless of how much I give you, I doubt you'd believe it even if I showed you the records. Would you believe? Or would you make up another excuse for why you won't believe? Last edited by unownmew; 03-18-2012 at 01:34 PM. |
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03-18-2012, 02:35 PM | #36 |
Gee, Brain...
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Do you think claiming that black skin is a curse from God is anything other than horrifically offensive and downright moronic?
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03-18-2012, 03:33 PM | #37 | |
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I find it hard to believe that a sensible person could believe in such a thing, but whatever floats your boat, I guess. |
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03-18-2012, 07:36 PM | #38 | |
Decidedly Epic
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03-18-2012, 07:53 PM | #39 | ||
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I'm highly suspicious that this sort of fraudulent retranslation is what happened here regarding the Book of Abraham. Last edited by unownmew; 03-18-2012 at 07:56 PM. |
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03-18-2012, 08:03 PM | #40 |
Decidedly Epic
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I found this thread and thought I'd add my two bits. I congratulate you on keeping your head throughout this debate.
As for the dark skin curse, it does happen to Cain as well and if you notice, native Americans, who are the remaining Lamanites, are not black, their skin is brown. Black skin comes from genetics and living in certain areas, such as Africa. Now, before you say "oh, so now Native Americans are the evil ones huh?" notice above, 2. We believe that men will punished for their own sins and Adam's transgression. Taking a step further, we can say that modern day Native Americans are not evil, and are not punished for the sins of their fathers. They are not the recipients of the curse, but are affected by it as all their generations have not returned fully to the gospel.
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Last edited by Haymez; 03-18-2012 at 08:15 PM. |
03-18-2012, 08:08 PM | #41 |
Primordial Fishbeast
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03-18-2012, 08:09 PM | #42 |
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We throw you under the bus because it is our duty, mew, otherwise we wouldn't have much to debate about now would we?
You're incredibly frustrating... possibly the most frustrating to argue with, so it is only natural our rhetoric is influenced by our frustration and key points, no matter what debate we have. |
03-18-2012, 08:20 PM | #43 | |||
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But in all seriousness, I get frustrated with you guys too, but I never devolve, or at least I try not to devolve, into petty personal attacks. There's no purpose in it, no content that can be substantively proven right or wrong, all it does it hurt feelings and ruin relationships. And provide an "out" for someone who has no other substance to stand on.. I keep everything substantive, because I know the substance I have speaks for itself, far louder then any insult could possibly. And for anyone looking to cut through the crap of preconceived ideas, and find the truth, it speaks volumes. |
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03-18-2012, 08:58 PM | #44 | |
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I don't know. I find Mormonism funny because you could cherrypick half of its specific doctrine, simplify it, and laugh for days, and analogies are endless (see deo's post about Flutterianism), but if you've been looking at all the alternatives and decide "Well, I looked at the book and I looked at all the alternatives and, based on my understanding of the world, I think that this book is completely true", then I'm not going to argue. But if you say "Well, I know this is true! It has to be true! It just has to be!" then there's a problem. |
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03-18-2012, 09:09 PM | #45 | ||
Decidedly Epic
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You can base your beliefs on whatever you want, but one shouldn't allow biases to influence their thoughts on the subject.
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03-18-2012, 09:17 PM | #46 | |
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Thanks Haymez, I appreciate the supporting words.
He's got the right idea guys, you should listen to him. That's all I've been trying to tell you guys for the past 20 pages in 3 threads. Quote:
It may seem like a tall order, but I can see no other explanation for what I see, what I've heard, and what I know, then that book, The Book of Mormon, being translated by Joseph Smith through the power and gift and authority of God. Which God is the Eternal Father, whose son is Jesus the Christ of the New Testament, Last edited by unownmew; 03-18-2012 at 09:23 PM. |
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03-18-2012, 10:10 PM | #47 |
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My problems with the Mormon church stem primarily from several early-Church controversies that were decided in a way that is damning to the Mormons.
Specifically the definition of the Trinity in the Nicean Creed, and a "third revelation" movement that was deemed heretical by the proto-orthodox church. Just so you know that I don't discount Mormonism because I think it sounds silly. I discount it because I have read its doctrine and from the position of a conservative Catholic, it is dead wrong on many serious issues. The Mormons simply do not worship the same God as Christians do, because the Mormons do not worship the Trinitarian God. You have already admitted this, actually, when you called the Council of Nicea silly and confusing. Mormonism has always seemed like a blend of Christian heresy and Scientology to me, although Scientology was obviously invented long after the LDS church was formed. tl;dr: If you deny the inerrancy of the Council of Nicea's proclamation on the nature of the Trinity, we have nothing to talk about. Because along with the Bible, that is the pillar upon which Christianity has stood for hundreds and thousands of years. Also, I am not going to sit here and debate Christian councils with you, unownmew, because you have already decided your opinion. The only thing that could change your opinion now is a growing doubt in your own mind, combined with very insightful questions from a person much more intelligent than you, in an environment where you are not surrounded by protective shield all the time. Alas, I fear actually getting through to you would do more harm than good. Do not treat this post as an attack on Mormonism: treat it as me explaining my opinion to you. Last edited by Amras.MG; 03-18-2012 at 10:16 PM. |
03-19-2012, 03:39 AM | #48 |
我が名は勇者王!
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This sentence effectively summarizes why nobody is going to debate you much anymore.
You're not really here for truth, you're here to preach. Unlike other places, the users of UPN are tactful and respective enough to listen to your preaching and decide for themselves if there's merit in what you have to say. Catholics and atheists alike have put up with your pulpit because they're interested, not because they're radical contrarians like you're expecting. It's almost egregious how awesome your audience is and how rigid you've been toward them. I've judged debate for 4 years, and after watching you in this forum since December I feel despite your extensive knowledge your persuasive skills are quite poor. You completely ignore the major challenges to your beliefs and often retreat to conspiracy theory/un-falsifiability when facts are presented in front of you. Facts you do not provide yourself, but ask of others as a bluff. You sometimes provide evidence but it's never up to our standards of rigor and bias, despite the burden of proof lying with you. You're not even doing what other LDS do - appeal to the logical framework of Mormonism. I'd never met a Mormon who preached down - something common to fundamentalists Christians, which the LDS by definition is not - before I met you, and it's kind of jarring that you'd so proudly banner your affiliation with the religion when you're not even in compliance with how it operates. My friend the Elder, for example, gave a much more compelling, curious and far less condescending response to some questions in a few sentences than you did in several dozen posts (paraphrase): "God isn't a disembodied voice, the Bible says he made man in his image. So, we can infer he's human-like at least. If Man is reflective of God, we can also infer that Man's institutions likewise imitate God's domain." He told me this in 10th Grade, and it's a good defense for the planet thing. The God system in the Book of Mormon is analogous to the role of governments in our secular society, institutions that determine behaviour and ethics of the governed. At this level, it's not even contradictory with other Christian beliefs, but it suggests rationality, and primes the listener for dissecting the more controversial beliefs. This isn't the Dark Ages, and ultimately people on the whole can think much more critically than they could centuries ago. Fear and superstition just isn't as compelling in the face of the results of modern science and economics. If you want to win over people, you need to frame your arguments more in the latter and less in the former.
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ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望 今 信じあえる あきらめない 心かさね 永遠を抱きしめて Last edited by Doppleganger; 03-21-2012 at 05:22 PM. |
03-20-2012, 03:24 AM | #49 |
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OK, so I've looked over the thread, being LDS myself, and I like how Unownmew handled certain topics and don't like as much how he handled others.
First off, I think the dark skin curse happened with Noah's son, Ham, rebelling. It might have happened in Cain's bloodline, but theoretically everyone other than Noah and his friends were killed by the flood. Haymez is correct about the Lamanites, though. Again, nothing against Blacks or Native Americans; they can be just as worthy of celestial glory as everyone else. Second, I think Doppleganger is right on a couple of points; one of our Church's purposes is to preach the gospel, but we shouldn't be "bible-bashing" or preaching down, but preaching up, "teaching as inspired by the Spirit," to use LDS lingo. Third, and Haymez did bring this up, but we can't really force people to believe one way or another. It just doesn't work that way. Everyone has their agency; "they are free to choose liberty and eternal life through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death through the captivity and power of the devil..." (2 Nephi 2: 27, emphasis added) Everyone should have the chance to decide for themselves whether to follow God or someone/something else. Whether good or wrong, it's their choice; our job as members is simply to show that there just might be a better path to follow. Also, unownmew, I think you could've handled Deoxys' trolling better; you really did play right into his hands. That said, I can think of Zeezrom's questions in Alma 11 and Amulek's responses to them... worth a read. Finally, I am grateful for a thread like this being put up. Even if the discussion devolves (and thanks Haymez and Doppleganger, BTW, for re-evolving it), at the very least, it still exposes people to LDS beliefs; the more people just know about us, the better. There, I put in a whole nickel's worth!
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