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Old 03-14-2012, 05:36 PM   #26
deoxys
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>I believe it's true because there's no other logical explanation for it's existence

Ladies and gentlemen, we're done here.


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Old 03-14-2012, 07:01 PM   #27
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Since my question has gone unanswered... what do Mormons actually believe in? Because one of the things that I have seen is that they believe that African-Americans having black skin is actually a curse, since they didn't take a side in a celestial war long ago. If this is true, then I cannot take this religion seriously. Because any religion that discriminates against another race of people really just isn't right.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:05 PM   #28
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Since he won't answer;

So long as you follow essential Christian morals to a tee and never break them;

-You become a god upon death

-You get your own planet to rule over as that god

-Jesus visited the native americans after his resurrection

-Jesus and Satan are brothers, Satan rebelled because God chose Jesus to be the messiah and not him as his ideas for peace were through domination
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
-Jesus and Satan are brothers, Satan rebelled because God chose Jesus to be the messiah and not him as his ideas for peace were through domination
On Mormons and Naruto:

God the father
Satan the older brother
Jesus the younger brother

QED, Kishimoto is a secret Japanese Mormon.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:38 PM   #30
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What a hilarious and yet apt connection. I always knew Kishi was up to no good... but maybe that's just his over usage of deus ex machina.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:12 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Ask God, believing you'll get an answer, and see for yourself if these things are not true.
I just asked him. He said to give you these.
Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show

Spoiler: show


(well not really but my only doubt about what he might say comes from panel 3 of that comic. The Old Testament is the only thing in the Bible that's out of date.)

deo:

If you cut me in on the profits I'll be a witness to anything! Claim that you saw airplane squirrels that spelled out God's message to fundraise? Sure, I saw it too!
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:22 AM   #32
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I love you, deo.
Deo's posts in this thread are A+++
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:36 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Mormon converts believe it. And Furthermore, the LDS church has over 14 million members worldwide. that's either a lot of "suckers" or there must really be something about the book for those who actually look at it.
Exactly. We feel sorry for all those suckers. Especially those of us who have stuck our noses in the book.

Twilight was a better read. And more realistic.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:32 PM   #34
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I like how you've claimed that the names of those people are on record but haven't given us any record.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:29 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Since my question has gone unanswered... what do Mormons actually believe in? Because one of the things that I have seen is that they believe that African-Americans having black skin is actually a curse, since they didn't take a side in a celestial war long ago. If this is true, then I cannot take this religion seriously. Because any religion that discriminates against another race of people really just isn't right.
What do we believe? Well, that covers a lot of things, that will take a long time to explain, so I'll give you the basics.

Spoiler: show

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Anything further you desire to know?

As far as the alleged view regarding blacks- I have no idea where that came from, it's never been taught to me in all my years as a Mormon, and any speculation as to why a race is colored a certain way, has nothing to do with the Church, or our Beliefs, and holds no meaning in the eternal scheme of things.

My own speculation, which I will without hesitation tell you could very well be wrong, is that Blacks are the descendents of Cain, who was marked by God for killing his brother Abel.

The only reference to blacks our scripture gives, is that the Seed of Laman and Lemuel, brothers to Nephi, were cursed with black skin to differentiate them from the Nephites, that the wicked and the righteous would not mix, just as the Hebrews were told not to marry "strange wives." Perhaps God did so to play off human nature to keep them apart- but it does in no way invalidate them as people. After a period of separation, missionaries were sent to the cursed Lamanites, to bring them to the truth, allowing them (who were believers) to join with the Nephites - and then there was no segregation, and over time the curse was lifted from among them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
Since he won't answer;

So long as you follow essential Christian morals to a tee and never break them;

-You become a god upon death

-You get your own planet to rule over as that god

-Jesus visited the native americans after his resurrection

-Jesus and Satan are brothers, Satan rebelled because God chose Jesus to be the messiah and not him as his ideas for peace were through domination
Don't speak for me. I can speak for myself.

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Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
I like how you've claimed that the names of those people are on record but haven't given us any record.
You never asked.
But considering how you (all) continue to refuse to believe anything I say, regardless of how much I give you, I doubt you'd believe it even if I showed you the records.

Would you believe? Or would you make up another excuse for why you won't believe?

Last edited by unownmew; 03-18-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:35 PM   #36
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Do you think claiming that black skin is a curse from God is anything other than horrifically offensive and downright moronic?
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:33 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew
The only reference to blacks our scripture gives, is that the Seed of Laman and Lemuel, brothers to Nephi, were cursed with black skin to differentiate them from the Nephites, that the wicked and the righteous would not mix, just as the Hebrews were told not to marry "strange wives."
So your religion basically says that people with dark skin are cursed, and that the people with black skin are "wicked" and should be seperated from those who have white skin, and are thus "righteous?"

I find it hard to believe that a sensible person could believe in such a thing, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:36 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Oh ho, that's rich. People who don't want the LDS church to be true, claim to have retranslated what Joseph Smith translated, and surprise surprise, their translation supports their claims and negate Smith's.

Not to mention their translations are overly too obvious to be real. It's as if I were to try to tell you what's going on in a picture without knowing what the author intended. Well, this guy is doing this, and his name was that, based on my little knowledge of Egypt, this looks like Embalming so, that's what it must be.
If I may add, this happened with the book of Lehi as Unownmew may recall. 116 pages of translated text were lost by Martin Harris and were found by others. The pages were never retranslated because those who were against the church could change the words of the original pages and "prove" Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:53 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
So your religion basically says that people with dark skin are cursed, and that the people with black skin are "wicked" and should be seperated from those who have white skin, and are thus "righteous?"

I find it hard to believe that a sensible person could believe in such a thing, but whatever floats your boat, I guess.
No, it says no such thing. Perhaps they were cursed for wickedness, such a cursing being used by God to play on primal human nature to keep the wicked separated from the righteous, but that is simply an extension of doctrine, no different then what the Bible says about marking Cain. It has no bearing on the religion as anything but a historical fact. There is no implied "righteousness" for being white, nor certain "wickedness" for being black. Both colors are just as easily capable of good and bad deeds. And such differentiation for separation has long been said as unnecessary any longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haymez View Post
If I may add, this happened with the book of Lehi as Unownmew may recall. 116 pages of translated text were lost by Martin Harris and were found by others. The pages were never retranslated because those who were against the church could change the words of the original pages and "prove" Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
I haven't seen you around before, but you are right in that about the Book of Lehi. I'm surprised another person knew the history here.
I'm highly suspicious that this sort of fraudulent retranslation is what happened here regarding the Book of Abraham.

Last edited by unownmew; 03-18-2012 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:03 PM   #40
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I found this thread and thought I'd add my two bits. I congratulate you on keeping your head throughout this debate.

As for the dark skin curse, it does happen to Cain as well and if you notice, native Americans, who are the remaining Lamanites, are not black, their skin is brown. Black skin comes from genetics and living in certain areas, such as Africa.

Now, before you say "oh, so now Native Americans are the evil ones huh?" notice above,

2. We believe that men will punished for their own sins and Adam's transgression.

Taking a step further, we can say that modern day Native Americans are not evil, and are not punished for the sins of their fathers. They are not the recipients of the curse, but are affected by it as all their generations have not returned fully to the gospel.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:08 PM   #41
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I congratulate you on keeping your head throughout this debate.
...

Ha.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:09 PM   #42
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We throw you under the bus because it is our duty, mew, otherwise we wouldn't have much to debate about now would we?

You're incredibly frustrating... possibly the most frustrating to argue with, so it is only natural our rhetoric is influenced by our frustration and key points, no matter what debate we have.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:20 PM   #43
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I found this thread and thought I'd add my two bits. I congratulate you on keeping your head throughout this debate.
Well, I tried anyway, I'm not sure I've kept it completely, but thank you.

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We throw you under the bus because it is our duty, mew, otherwise we wouldn't have much to debate about now would we?
No that's true, if everyone agreed with me, there would be much less to say, and that would be boring. So I don't mind being argued with.

Quote:
You're incredibly frustrating... possibly the most frustrating to argue with, so it is only natural our rhetoric is influenced by our frustration and key points, no matter what debate we have.
I'm frustrating cus I'm right.
But in all seriousness, I get frustrated with you guys too, but I never devolve, or at least I try not to devolve, into petty personal attacks. There's no purpose in it, no content that can be substantively proven right or wrong, all it does it hurt feelings and ruin relationships. And provide an "out" for someone who has no other substance to stand on.. I keep everything substantive, because I know the substance I have speaks for itself, far louder then any insult could possibly. And for anyone looking to cut through the crap of preconceived ideas, and find the truth, it speaks volumes.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:58 PM   #44
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But in all seriousness, I get frustrated with you guys too, but I never devolve, or at least I try not to devolve, into petty personal attacks.
SCARY SCARY MORMON

I don't know. I find Mormonism funny because you could cherrypick half of its specific doctrine, simplify it, and laugh for days, and analogies are endless (see deo's post about Flutterianism), but if you've been looking at all the alternatives and decide "Well, I looked at the book and I looked at all the alternatives and, based on my understanding of the world, I think that this book is completely true", then I'm not going to argue.

But if you say "Well, I know this is true! It has to be true! It just has to be!" then there's a problem.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:09 PM   #45
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Exactly. We feel sorry for all those suckers. Especially those of us who have stuck our noses in the book.

Twilight was a better read. And more realistic.
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Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post

I don't know. I find Mormonism funny because you could cherrypick half of its specific doctrine, simplify it, and laugh for days, and analogies are endless (see deo's post about Flutterianism), but if you've been looking at all the alternatives and decide "Well, I looked at the book and I looked at all the alternatives and, based on my understanding of the world, I think that this book is completely true", then I'm not going to argue.

But if you say "Well, I know this is true! It has to be true! It just has to be!" then there's a problem.
The key to understanding the Book of Mormon and the doctrine of the LDS church is reading/investigating it without the attitude of "This is a load of crap" and actually think about the things said there. Shuckle is right, people shouldn't instantly say that it has to be true, they need to find out for themselves through logical, spiritual, or other means.

You can base your beliefs on whatever you want, but one shouldn't allow biases to influence their thoughts on the subject.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:17 PM   #46
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Thanks Haymez, I appreciate the supporting words.
He's got the right idea guys, you should listen to him. That's all I've been trying to tell you guys for the past 20 pages in 3 threads.

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I don't know. I find Mormonism funny because you could cherrypick half of its specific doctrine, simplify it, and laugh for days, and analogies are endless (see deo's post about Flutterianism), but if you've been looking at all the alternatives and decide "Well, I looked at the book and I looked at all the alternatives and, based on my understanding of the world, I think that this book is completely true", then I'm not going to argue.
That is how it is. I have read the book, and the testimonies of the witnesses. I've looked at the claims, and heard the testimonies of countless other members, among which being first and secondhand accounts of miracles performed by Smith, and visions received by early church members. I also see the archeological evidence in the Middle East, and I've read the promise within the book itself.

It may seem like a tall order, but I can see no other explanation for what I see, what I've heard, and what I know, then that book, The Book of Mormon, being translated by Joseph Smith through the power and gift and authority of God. Which God is the Eternal Father, whose son is Jesus the Christ of the New Testament,

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Old 03-18-2012, 10:10 PM   #47
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My problems with the Mormon church stem primarily from several early-Church controversies that were decided in a way that is damning to the Mormons.

Specifically the definition of the Trinity in the Nicean Creed, and a "third revelation" movement that was deemed heretical by the proto-orthodox church.

Just so you know that I don't discount Mormonism because I think it sounds silly. I discount it because I have read its doctrine and from the position of a conservative Catholic, it is dead wrong on many serious issues. The Mormons simply do not worship the same God as Christians do, because the Mormons do not worship the Trinitarian God.

You have already admitted this, actually, when you called the Council of Nicea silly and confusing.

Mormonism has always seemed like a blend of Christian heresy and Scientology to me, although Scientology was obviously invented long after the LDS church was formed.

tl;dr: If you deny the inerrancy of the Council of Nicea's proclamation on the nature of the Trinity, we have nothing to talk about. Because along with the Bible, that is the pillar upon which Christianity has stood for hundreds and thousands of years.

Also, I am not going to sit here and debate Christian councils with you, unownmew, because you have already decided your opinion. The only thing that could change your opinion now is a growing doubt in your own mind, combined with very insightful questions from a person much more intelligent than you, in an environment where you are not surrounded by protective shield all the time. Alas, I fear actually getting through to you would do more harm than good. Do not treat this post as an attack on Mormonism: treat it as me explaining my opinion to you.

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Old 03-19-2012, 03:39 AM   #48
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I'm frustrating cus I'm right.
This sentence effectively summarizes why nobody is going to debate you much anymore.

You're not really here for truth, you're here to preach. Unlike other places, the users of UPN are tactful and respective enough to listen to your preaching and decide for themselves if there's merit in what you have to say. Catholics and atheists alike have put up with your pulpit because they're interested, not because they're radical contrarians like you're expecting. It's almost egregious how awesome your audience is and how rigid you've been toward them.

I've judged debate for 4 years, and after watching you in this forum since December I feel despite your extensive knowledge your persuasive skills are quite poor. You completely ignore the major challenges to your beliefs and often retreat to conspiracy theory/un-falsifiability when facts are presented in front of you. Facts you do not provide yourself, but ask of others as a bluff. You sometimes provide evidence but it's never up to our standards of rigor and bias, despite the burden of proof lying with you.

You're not even doing what other LDS do - appeal to the logical framework of Mormonism. I'd never met a Mormon who preached down - something common to fundamentalists Christians, which the LDS by definition is not - before I met you, and it's kind of jarring that you'd so proudly banner your affiliation with the religion when you're not even in compliance with how it operates.

My friend the Elder, for example, gave a much more compelling, curious and far less condescending response to some questions in a few sentences than you did in several dozen posts (paraphrase):

"God isn't a disembodied voice, the Bible says he made man in his image. So, we can infer he's human-like at least. If Man is reflective of God, we can also infer that Man's institutions likewise imitate God's domain."

He told me this in 10th Grade, and it's a good defense for the planet thing. The God system in the Book of Mormon is analogous to the role of governments in our secular society, institutions that determine behaviour and ethics of the governed. At this level, it's not even contradictory with other Christian beliefs, but it suggests rationality, and primes the listener for dissecting the more controversial beliefs.

This isn't the Dark Ages, and ultimately people on the whole can think much more critically than they could centuries ago. Fear and superstition just isn't as compelling in the face of the results of modern science and economics. If you want to win over people, you need to frame your arguments more in the latter and less in the former.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:24 AM   #49
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OK, so I've looked over the thread, being LDS myself, and I like how Unownmew handled certain topics and don't like as much how he handled others.
First off, I think the dark skin curse happened with Noah's son, Ham, rebelling. It might have happened in Cain's bloodline, but theoretically everyone other than Noah and his friends were killed by the flood. Haymez is correct about the Lamanites, though. Again, nothing against Blacks or Native Americans; they can be just as worthy of celestial glory as everyone else.

Second, I think Doppleganger is right on a couple of points; one of our Church's purposes is to preach the gospel, but we shouldn't be "bible-bashing" or preaching down, but preaching up, "teaching as inspired by the Spirit," to use LDS lingo.

Third, and Haymez did bring this up, but we can't really force people to believe one way or another. It just doesn't work that way. Everyone has their agency; "they are free to choose liberty and eternal life through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death through the captivity and power of the devil..." (2 Nephi 2: 27, emphasis added) Everyone should have the chance to decide for themselves whether to follow God or someone/something else. Whether good or wrong, it's their choice; our job as members is simply to show that there just might be a better path to follow.

Also, unownmew, I think you could've handled Deoxys' trolling better; you really did play right into his hands. That said, I can think of Zeezrom's questions in Alma 11 and Amulek's responses to them... worth a read.

Finally, I am grateful for a thread like this being put up. Even if the discussion devolves (and thanks Haymez and Doppleganger, BTW, for re-evolving it), at the very least, it still exposes people to LDS beliefs; the more people just know about us, the better.

There, I put in a whole nickel's worth!
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:34 AM   #50
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I would believe the records of the names if it came from a source that can be trusted.
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