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Old 07-01-2015, 01:35 AM   #1
Doppleganger
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So has Firefox sold out?

Forcing Windows users to deal with more mobile-oriented updates got me suspicious, but then I saw this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
The initial enablers for DRM in HTML5 were Google and Microsoft. Supporters also include Adobe. On 14 May 2014, Mozilla announced plans to support EME in Firefox, the last major browser to avoid DRM. Calling it "a difficult and uncomfortable step", Andreas Gal of Mozilla explained that future versions of Firefox would remain open source but ship with a sandbox designed to run a content decryption module developed by Adobe. While promising to "work on alternative solutions", Mitchell Baker stated that Mozilla's refusal to implement EME would accomplish little more than convincing many users to switch browsers. This decision was condemned by Cory Doctorow and the Free Software Foundation.
I don't understand why this is or why Mozilla cares about market-share. It's well known that Firefox was and has been superior to IE, but it was superior to Chrome, too. It lost market-share to Chrome because Chrome was "Google". Firefox has gotten worse ever since.

I need a new browser. Any suggestions?
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Last edited by Doppleganger; 07-01-2015 at 03:41 AM.
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Old 07-01-2015, 02:33 AM   #2
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I use Firefox but am not a super computer person so you'll have to explain to me in simple terms why we should care about this. Drm for video games is annoying because I shouldn't have to be online to play entirely offline games I own. On music because I should be able to move it freely around devices I own. Neither of these are relevant to browser use so... I care why? What practical consequences does this have for me as a Firefox user?

EDIT the first: A quick search online makes it seem like this is just another version of what I already have in Silverlight and Flash. So what? Confused as to what I'm missing here.
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Old 07-01-2015, 03:31 AM   #3
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I similarly do not understand why this is relevant.
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Old 07-01-2015, 03:41 AM   #4
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It means that they could ban Adblock with impunity and it would be very difficult to sideload it.

However, doing so would be suicide, so I don't think this will be a problem. Though I don't trust Adobe in the least.
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Old 07-01-2015, 03:45 AM   #5
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Sounds like Adobe and Mozilla created a mutual partnership as both are in somewhat similar threatened positions by their competitors in their respective fields.

So I'm guessing you won't use Chrome? I used to despise Chrome, but it quickly became pretty convenient, and having all of the extensions being easy to install and use is nice. I'd avoid Opera from some recent things I've heard regarding security issues. Microsoft's Edge browser is coming out in a month or so, maybe wait for that?
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Old 07-01-2015, 03:55 AM   #6
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For the programmer, open source means they have the code to modify a program as they see fit. For the end user, a closed source model versus open source means:

-slower updates, slower responses to problems
-less/no customization
-less/no control over data, privacy, content

Closed source means the developer has all the power and the end-user dances on the palm of their hands.

This gives a good explanation of FF's troubles. Looks like a handful of Judas Iscariots stabbed Mozilla in the back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
So I'm guessing you won't use Chrome? I used to despise Chrome, but it quickly became pretty convenient, and having all of the extensions being easy to install and use is nice. I'd avoid Opera from some recent things I've heard regarding security issues. Microsoft's Edge browser is coming out in a month or so, maybe wait for that?
You've basically given the NSA a free passport to your identity. Never make any comments on the Middle East. Ever.
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Old 07-01-2015, 05:22 AM   #7
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I emphasise that this thing is literally no different to Silverlight and Flash. It's just a different version of things that already exist for Firefox. I haven't seen you bitching about those (maybe I just missed it).

Really, you seem unable to give a single practical difference for me as the end user. I don't buy this "less customisation" thing given the winner on that front is Chrome which is distinctly not open source. Your most recent post also tried very hard to make it sound like the entirety of Firefox is going closed source which your opening quote clearly spells out is not the case. Like, correct me if I'm wrong but Silverlight and Flash are already closed source. I already have those bolted onto Firefox. Again, why do I care in the slightest about getting another one?
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Old 07-01-2015, 05:34 AM   #8
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Also, the NSA knows everything about you anyway, sorry!
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Really, you seem unable to give a single practical difference for me as the end user. I don't buy this "less customisation" thing given the winner on that front is Chrome which is distinctly not open source. Your most recent post also tried very hard to make it sound like the entirety of Firefox is going closed source which your opening quote clearly spells out is not the case. Like, correct me if I'm wrong but Silverlight and Flash are already closed source. I already have those bolted onto Firefox. Again, why do I care in the slightest about getting another one?
It's one small step for Firefox, but it's a giant leap for closed source projects, as the only reason Chrome allows things like customization is due to competition from Firefox! Remember that IE didn't have this stuff initially, Firefox competition is what pressured IE development and Google just copied everything Firefox did.

Android also, due to competition from Cyanogen, is moving to close the source of Android as each update includes more Google proprietary software. Google let Android be open source because Apple launched the iPhone before them, and they panicked and released the code as a way to differentiate its product. That worked beautifully but it also paved the road for Cyanogen, which is a big enough threat to end the open source experiment.

Firefox is also reported to start including adware like its competitors, something that they can't pull off fully without resrticting the user's ability to stop ads. So as Rangeet suggested, Adblock and NoScript might see their days limited.

Quote:
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Also, the NSA knows everything about you anyway, sorry!
That was intended as a joke, but Google does assign your search queries to your IP address, and with WiFi networks and their own location services it's not too hard to pinpoint the address from where that IP is coming from.
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:09 AM   #10
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:34 AM   #11
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>It's one small step for Firefox.

How is it any step for Firefox? How is this any different from the existence of Flash and Silverlight which've been around for years? All that's happening is that some things that currently use those two will start using this as well/instead. Nothing new is going closed source. No part of Firefox that is opensourced is being changed or effected in any way whatsoever. Can you name one thing that's currently open sourced that'll be closed source because of this? Because right now I'm still struggling to see a single tangible consequence of this and you've not provided any.
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Last edited by Concept; 07-01-2015 at 11:48 AM. Reason: Original post was dickish and I should not be a dick.
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Old 07-01-2015, 12:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
>It's one small step for Firefox.

How is it any step for Firefox? How is this any different from the existence of Flash and Silverlight which've been around for years? All that's happening is that some things that currently use those two will start using this as well/instead. Nothing new is going closed source. No part of Firefox that is opensourced is being changed or effected in any way whatsoever. Can you name one thing that's currently open sourced that'll be closed source because of this? Because right now I'm still struggling to see a single tangible consequence of this and you've not provided any.
It isn't proprietary specifically, it's DRM. This blog post puts the Wikipedia quote in context and makes it less alarming: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2015/0...t-and-firefox/

Nothing is being closed source, but it's still a major blow for Firefox. They've fought against DRM but are providing support for it in an effort to maintain customers. In that respect they've failed to stop the widespread use of DRM so a new feature will be closed source.
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Old 07-01-2015, 02:44 PM   #13
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Still not really agreeing with the problem but thanks for taking the time to explain your point of view.
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Old 07-01-2015, 11:42 PM   #14
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Shit.
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Old 07-02-2015, 07:42 AM   #15
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I interpret that Wikipedia paragraph as signaling that:
  1. Mozilla did not and still does not want DRM in their browser.
  2. Adobe threatened to pull support from Firefox, i.e. they threatened to sue Mozilla, if Mozilla continued to offer a browser which is Flash-compatible while not hiding the Flash code behind a DRM wall.
  3. Mozilla recognized that Adobe Flash is still an integral part of our web browsing lives. Its time may be drawing to a close, but it has not yet closed.
  4. And so, forced to choose between keeping Firefox DRM-free and keeping Firefox Flash-compatible ...
  5. Mozilla decided to stick with Flash compatibility for the time being.
It's unfortunate that they did not feel that they have anything near the same level of power to tell Adobe to fuck off the same way that Apple did with the launch of the iPhone nearly a decade ago, but their market studies likely showed them that if they pulled support of Adobe Flash from Firefox that it would only serve to further drive their once monolithic market share into Google's lap.
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Old 07-02-2015, 09:31 PM   #16
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This discussion is a spin-off from the html5/Flash discussion you posted, so it was interesting to me then that Mozilla caved when Adobe should be feeling the pressure.
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Old 07-03-2015, 08:39 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Starting with Android 4.4 KitKat, Google has mandated that the default browser for Android proper be Google Chrome. Since Android 5.0 Lollipop, the WebView browser component has been separated from the rest of the Android firmware in order to facilitate separate security updates by Google.
I wasn't going to double post to bring this up, but IMV this more than functionality is the biggest reason for Chrome's massive market-share, because the computer an/or internet illiterate are just going to rely on the default, and it explains why Google paid $1B to Mozilla to keep Google as Firefox's default search engine.
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