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Old 01-28-2015, 08:58 PM   #3901
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I came. I saw. I 6-0'd.

First 6-0 with this team and first in a long while. It feels GOOD.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:02 PM   #3902
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Note to self: Tell Showdown to work on suggested spread feature. Ill fix that. Anyhow, as I said, other sets run items I'm not comfortable with using, and Lute being frail to physical hard hitters, another CM user with more durability was fine by me. Me-grade unusual wouldnt be in the Smogon Dex, so be mindful of that. However, that outspeed worked out as I got a chance to get Lissa in and Heal Bell without risk of being hit too hard on the switch.
So I forgot to make the joke:

It's no surprise Roy ended up totally incompetent.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:07 PM   #3903
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So I'm now running Specs!Roy (as the 6-0 shows!) and while Choiced is going to take some getting used to, HOT DAMN it works.

Before that, I was in a battle and a guy brought out ContraStorm Serperior. I commented on its unoriginality, he proceeded to bash on my own. As soon as it got brought down by a combination of Assimilator (thank you based clear smog) and Lissa, he insta forfeited. It was his lead.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:49 PM   #3904
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Yeah making comments about unoriginality when 1: it's the only viable set and 2: when your team is copied from a high ranked ladderer probably isn't a good idea.

This is also why I suggested enlisting us to help build you a team instead of c/p'ing one. Typically, copying a team from a high ranked player without permission is kinda scummy and while it may give you /some/ viable ladder experience, it's less effective when you have to guess the exact sets. In addition, it really doesn't teach you a anything about teambuilding, or else we'd all be great teambuilders because we can look at the Smogon RMT archive.

I'm somewhat out of touch with the meta, so I'm not 100% sure how to support them at the moment, but I do know that at least in the case of Raikou, it's meant for more of a support role than a primary one. Basically, it should be supporting your team's focus rather than being your teams focus, for OU at least. For Suicune, the only set I can see having a tram focused around it is CroCune, but sadly I can't just pull up what it'd struggle against that's popular right now.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:51 PM   #3905
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Yeah um

Contrary Serp is the only OU viable set. See: Where Serp lived before Contrary.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:12 PM   #3906
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Well yes but there's a difference between something unoriginal but requires thought and something unoriginal like "press this button over and over and have a near constant win condition." Besides, most every pokemon if not every pokemon on my team has permutations on their sets so that they can be suited to a playstyle I'm comfortable with and leaves a more personal Mark on it. Serperior does not have that right. It's Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, and whatever 2 other useless moves you want to run.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:21 PM   #3907
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Sub / Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power [Fighting or Fire] / Leaf Storm

Why would you run Giga Drain at all, you need all the coverage you can get?
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:27 PM   #3908
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Some kind of recovery eh Idgaf Serp is niche at best in a meta full of Ferro and BIRD anyway. It's been lauded as this scary killing machine when anything that can wall special, grass, or both punishes it, especially if it's Clear Smog Amoonguss.
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:36 PM   #3909
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I'd honestly be surprised right now if Serperior went any higher than UU honestly. It could be BL but it would easily be the worst BL.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:08 PM   #3910
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Well it can go so far I don't even think it will make it to UU that are so many things that can destroy it in UU.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:11 PM   #3911
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To be fair, Crobat was a hard counter in Gen V and it was at least UU level then. It's good when the counters are removed.
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:12 PM   #3912
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You do have a point there it can put in the work when there is nothing stopping it
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Old 01-29-2015, 03:43 PM   #3913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkbeat View Post
This is also why I suggested enlisting us to help build you a team instead of c/p'ing one. Typically, copying a team from a high ranked player without permission is kinda scummy and while it may give you /some/ viable ladder experience, it's less effective when you have to guess the exact sets. In addition, it really doesn't teach you a anything about teambuilding, or else we'd all be great teambuilders because we can look at the Smogon RMT archive.
With all due respect,
1. It isn't scummy.

2. Team building and orders-execution are two entirely different things.
A truly great player will need to have both the team-building skills and the execution of orders down pat, but for players of lesser skill, you can be great at one or the other without being great at both.

You see this all the time in competitive TCGs. I have known pro players who were masters at building tournament-winning decks but who would choke when it came time to actually play with the decks; rather than submit the decks themselves, they would build the decks for a friend (and fellow pro player) and let that pro player field the deck in the tournament.

It's similar with Pokémon: someone can be a master at building teams but be terrible at making decisions in the heat of battle about whether to switch out or stay put, about whether to go on the offensive or remain on the defensive, about whether to bluff or not bluff, etc. And on the flip side, someone can be a master of things but be utter shit at building teams for himself.

Myles came to us asking for help at becoming a better battler. He didn't come to us asking for the full package of becoming a better battler and a better team builder. And even if he had, I would have told him off for biting off more than he can chew right now. It's better for all the parties involved to tackle one problem at a time. And since Myles is more clearly distressed by his inability to ladder well than by his inability to build a team, I'm going to focus my advice on how to help him ladder better, i.e. how to battle better. Even the best of teams plopped into his hands right now isn't going to see him skyrocket to the 1800s, so rather than waste his time on the basics of better team building, I'd rather give him the training wheels that will let him bypass that step for now and focus on what he really came here for: the skills necessary to defeat players ranked 1500-1800.

Insofar as Myles may have to resort to guesswork to fill in some of the holes in his knowledge, that is the very team building skills you're saying you want him to focus on. It's strange to see you mention it as a complaint against C&P'd teams yet extoll its virtues later. Frankly, if we could just give Myles a current (January 2015) team that is 100% identical to someone who managed to make Top 20 on the OU ladder, that is what I'd go for right now. But since we can't, his choices are either an older RMT team or else a current team with some guesswork involved with the EVs.
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:14 PM   #3914
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Or, we could always help him actually learn how to teambuild by building a team with him, step by step, and giving him advice and letting him in on our thought processes as we go. This would both give him a solid team, and he would actually be a better builder for it, unlike C/P'ing a team into showdown and running wild.

Frankly, Team-Building is the only thing that can be taught in terms of competitive pokemon. Things like Prediction and choice of lead just come naturally with experience. Sure, you can read a few articles on Smogon about Risk vs Reward, but really prediction is something that is somewhat unique to you and should be honed with your battle style through actual battling. There is no step by step guide to predicting, or choosing your lead, or anything like that, and you know why? It's because in competitive Pokemon there is no AI. There's no surefire way to determine what it will do, or even the possibility of what it will do. You just have to keep in mind the risk and the reward, and use your best judgment of how catastrophic it would be if you misplayed to make your move. That's literally all there is to it.

So yeah, Myles, if you want I'd be happy help you build a team, just shoot me a PM sometime. I'm sure Spark would help you as well, and probably most other people, provided you asked them to.
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:49 PM   #3915
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With all due respect,

1. It isn't scummy.
Maybe scummy was the wrong word, but if someone wanted you copying their team, they'd make an RMT of it or give it to you themselves. I guess it's really just a pet peeve.

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2. Team building and orders-execution are two entirely different things.

A truly great player will need to have both the team-building skills and the execution of orders down pat, but for players of lesser skill, you can be great at one or the other without being great at both.

You see this all the time in competitive TCGs. I have known pro players who were masters at building tournament-winning decks but who would choke when it came time to actually play with the decks; rather than submit the decks themselves, they would build the decks for a friend (and fellow pro player) and let that pro player field the deck in the tournament.

It's similar with Pokémon: someone can be a master at building teams but be terrible at making decisions in the heat of battle about whether to switch out or stay put, about whether to go on the offensive or remain on the defensive, about whether to bluff or not bluff, etc. And on the flip side, someone can be a master of things but be utter shit at building teams for himself.
I agree, and yeah, that happens all the time in tournaments like SPL.

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Myles came to us asking for help at becoming a better battler. He didn't come to us asking for the full package of becoming a better battler and a better team builder. And even if he had, I would have told him off for biting off more than he can chew right now. It's better for all the parties involved to tackle one problem at a time. And since Myles is more clearly distressed by his inability to ladder well than by his inability to build a team, I'm going to focus my advice on how to help him ladder better, i.e. how to battle better. Even the best of teams plopped into his hands right now isn't going to see him skyrocket to the 1800s, so rather than waste his time on the basics of better team building, I'd rather give him the training wheels that will let him bypass that step for now and focus on what he really came here for: the skills necessary to defeat players ranked 1500-1800.
He asked for help to make a serious ladder attempt, not to simply become better at only the ladder aspect. The start of being good at laddering is being able to create teams that can function on the ladder. I'm not saying we should sit here and drill him constantly on team building. I just think it'd be a good idea to make one team together for him to use, and go over the bare bones basics so he can have a reference point to check back to if he wants to build solid teams on his own later on.

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Insofar as Myles may have to resort to guesswork to fill in some of the holes in his knowledge, that is the very team building skills you're saying you want him to focus on. It's strange to see you mention it as a complaint against C&P'd teams yet extoll its virtues later. Frankly, if we could just give Myles a current (January 2015) team that is 100% identical to someone who managed to make Top 20 on the OU ladder, that is what I'd go for right now. But since we can't, his choices are either an older RMT team or else a current team with some guesswork involved with the EVs.
If you're making a team of six Pokemon without putting sets on one, then going back and putting sets on each of them, you're doing something wrong. Essentially, that's what Myles is doing by copying a team used by someone high on the ladder, just with the safety net of the six Pokemon already having been proven to work well together. And anyways, filling in sets with specific EV's and deciding on sets to support the team's focus is more in the advanced spectrum of team building, not something we want to focus on if we're aiming for teaching him to just battle.

So, if we're gonna focus on his battling skill, then Myles, just post all/a lot of replays on the thread of the team you decide to use. We'll all try to critique them to the best of our ability. I may grab some replays from some better battlers and analyze them as well so you can see how some people's through processes go.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:11 PM   #3916
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Nanako.nofighting();

With that out of the way, will do Spark.
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Old 01-30-2015, 01:22 AM   #3917
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Just to clarify:

Quote:
If you're making a team of six Pokemon without putting sets on one, then going back and putting sets on each of them, you're doing something wrong.
I never advised something this crude. I specifically told him:

Quote:
Go spectate and take notes. Try to reproduce the creatures as best you can.
"Take notes" doesn't mean "observe what six animals they use." "Take notes" means "record all attacks; note who wins every speed war to determine Scarf presence; note recoil damage of 10% from Life Orb; note Leftovers or Black Sludge recovery; etc." In short, re-assembling the team from scratch purely from observation.

But anyway, if you and MMS want to give it a shot -- teaching how to build a top-tier OU team -- then by all means go for it.
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Old 01-30-2015, 07:21 AM   #3918
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Unfortunately, I couldnt get notes on all of lil manaphy's team: the match that I saw it in was terminated early, I believe due to the then #2 guy (no idea where he is now) forfeiting, as lil manaphy was quite frankly handing said #2's butt to him.
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Old 01-30-2015, 02:29 PM   #3919
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This isn't the sort of thing you do watching only one battle. You need to watch like 60+ for the certainty on EVs (because 248 =/= 252) and anywhere from 5 to 20 to get the complete list of twenty-four moves.
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Old 01-30-2015, 02:40 PM   #3920
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Recent ones that werent incomplete were nonexistent, so I used the most complete one. Like its so hard to find replays of top 3 because so much of it is this will-i-am2 dude and basically all i see is him screwing up and either a timer win or forfeit before its over. That and I have been doing this while oricrastinating and now that its friday i have actual time.
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Old 01-30-2015, 05:13 PM   #3921
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I didn't say to hunt for replays though. I encouraged you to spectate in real time. Find a name in the Top 25 or Top 50, use the /whois feature to see if they're online and if so then what room(s) they're in, and then go to the room(s) and watch. You should be able to do it as a guest if you're shy and don't want them to see your main username.

Anyway, it's okay. Do what works best for you. It was only ever advice intended to help you out, not orders for you to follow.
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:11 AM   #3922
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OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. I get it now. lil Manaphy please don't live in Australia or something.
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:21 AM   #3923
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Aitralia is such a dangerous war-torn country, I imagine he wouldn't have much time to play.
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Old 01-31-2015, 10:27 AM   #3924
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I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Old 01-31-2015, 05:43 PM   #3925
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So close...and then I get gimmick'd. The winner proceeds to act like I suck.
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