10-04-2016, 11:39 AM | #1 |
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Ash-Greninja promo coming via Sun/Moon demo on Oct. 18th [NO SPOILERS]
NO SUN AND MOON SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD.
Nintendo announced today that the demo for Sun and Moon will be coming to the Nintendo eShop on October 18th, just two weeks from today. Anyone who downloads and completes the demo will receive Ash-Greninja in-game on its full release a month later. As far as we know right now, completing the demo is the only way to obtain Ash-Greninja in-game. If anyone tries to argue this is technically a spoiler, I will fight you (because it's not). This gives those who are avoiding spoilers the opportunity to decide whether or not they would like to play the demo to receive this exclusive Pokemon.
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10-04-2016, 02:25 PM | #2 |
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A little more info revealed on Ash-Greninja in the games:
Ash-Greninja Category: Ninja Pokémon Type: Water/Dark Height: 4'11" Weight: 88.2 lbs. Ability: Battle Bond "Ash-Greninja has powered up thanks to the strength of its bonds with Ash. This is the form Greninja takes when it has gained new power due to the miraculous occurrence known as the bond phenomenon. This can be brought on by the bonds between people and Pokémon. It seems that it has only known to have occurred once—several hundred years ago. "Ash-Greninja's leg strength has been enhanced compared to an ordinary Greninja, making it difficult to see because of the speed at which it can move. It takes its enemies out in a flash! It becomes able to make giant Water Shurikens on its back, and it can throw them in rapid succession. "Greninja that can become Ash-Greninja have an Ability that no Pokémon has ever had before—Battle Bond. The Battle Bond Ability triggers this Pokémon’s form change to Ash-Greninja after it causes an opponent’s Pokémon to faint. When the battle ends, the Pokémon returns to its original Greninja form. This form is only for battles where it needs to break the limits!" |
10-04-2016, 02:36 PM | #3 |
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So this raises the question- exactly how useful will Greninjash be in battle, as opposed to your average Protean Greninja? I've seen some negative outlooks on this subject, with people saying the stat boosts won't be enough to compensate for losing Protean, comparing it to Mega Latios, crap like that. I say let's wait and see just how much this boosts its stats before we judge this.
I'm personally hyped for this. Always liked Ash-Greninja, and with Battle Bond being a thing, I have to wonder if we might be getting anything else in Sun/Moon capable of Bond Phenomenon. |
10-04-2016, 02:44 PM | #4 |
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This Battle Bond mechanic is pretty weird. It sounds like a faux-mega evolution that only activates under the condition that Greninja first KO a Pokemon.
I have to agree the Protean seems too good to lose. I have a feeling Ash-Greninja won't really actually be viable and is more like a novelty of sorts. Same goes for the whole Bond thing. I wouldn't hold your breath or put too much stock into it actually being a thing outside of this. |
10-04-2016, 03:27 PM | #5 |
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Ash Greninja might be more physical, like he is in the anime, and that might make him valid even without protean. But it really depends on the stats it gets.
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10-04-2016, 03:36 PM | #6 |
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Ash Greninja is worse than normal Greninja. Physical Water-types always take a bit of a shafting but Greninja doesn't have a solid physical movepool to back it up and Protean is by far one of the most overpowered abilities in the game.
Simply put, no stat change could really save this. Protean is just THAT good and special Greninja was always significantly better.
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10-04-2016, 03:45 PM | #7 |
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The movepool issue can easily be fixed this gen. But I agree with you Emi, even with a good physical movepool, Protean is just too good, both offensive and defensive.
I still want one though, it'll be a funny gimmick to have.
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10-06-2016, 12:46 AM | #8 |
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On the demo: I wonder how much of the data is in the demo this time around. Last time, with ORAS's demo, they "messed up" (depends on how you look at it) and included all of the creature data on Hoopa in the demo; that in turn allowed us to know Hoopa's forms, typings, and the fact that Hoopa's Unbound Form was not going to be a mega proper all in advance of the game's release. We even had Hyperspace Fury revealed ahead of time. So the question I have with this demo is, have Game Freak learned their lesson? Are they going to only include the creature data of those few, select creatures they revealed to you guys during the past few months of spoiler season? Or are they going to put the entire kit and caboodle in there? The answer to this question, which I suspect we won't know for certain until October 19, is going to determine whether the next four weeks are little different from the past few months or whether they require a complete social media blackout for spoiler avoiders. We'll see.
On Ash-Greninja: This is kind of a surprising move. Granted, I don't know much about Sun & Moon. But I figured that if Ash-Greninja were to be a thing, then it'd be the case that he were a Greninja specific to Ash Ketchum and that a) to see Ash-Greninja in the game you'd need to see Ash's first-ever in-game avatar and b) to have your own Greninja you'd have to settle for [yournamehere]-Greninja, a Greninja that would take on your own player character's hair style and color as well as a few other fashion details. The fact that they're making Ash-Greninja a ... subspecies, is really rather surprising to me. It's like they're saying, "There's this entire subgroup of Greninja known as Ash-Greninja ... dozens, thousands of them in society ... and these Ash-Greninja, they all happen to look like this one Japanese boy named Ash Ketchum." I mean, seriously: what the hell. What is going on here? Is Ash suddenly a vergence of the Force? Is he a prophesied Chosen One, a boy whose coming was foretold by the genetic lineage of an entire subspecies of frog? Oh please. Whether he will be viable or not ... again, been avoiding spoilers for Sun & Moon so can't really weigh in as much as some of you can. I can weigh in as far as a Gen 6-informed fan can. From a Gen 6-informed fan's perspective, I suppose I'm undecided on Ash-Greninja's usefulness. It depends on several factors, really:
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10-06-2016, 01:11 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
To answer your queries the best I can from the information I've gleaned behind the scenes, it is very likely that he will receive a stat change of some variety as well as a 99% almost-surety that Ash-Greninja will remain as such for the entire battle given this line in its description; "The Battle Bond Ability triggers this Pokémon’s form change to Ash-Greninja after it causes an opponent’s Pokémon to faint. When the battle ends, the Pokémon returns to its original Greninja form." The form change would very likely not count towards the Mega Evolution counter and to be truly useful, he would have to gain stats on the Mega-level, otherwise his utility falls even further. I mean, I could see them doing something small since its a novelty but I guess we'll see. Custom moves it's hard to tell, but I would assume it will probably get 1-2 signature moves and that'd be about it. |
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10-06-2016, 02:13 AM | #10 | |
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Quote:
Mega Gengar was a less good example, one I'd rather rescind than bend over to defend. Mega Lucario, there's no need to bend. I believe surely you would agree with me that Mega Lucario would have been just as good with, probably even better with, any of Sturdy, Intimidate, or Speed Boost as he would have with Adaptability. Put another way, "Take away Adaptability and you still have a really great Pokémon." I staunchly believe the same cannot be said for Greninja. Greninja was thoroughly outclassed by Starmie (Rapid Spin, Thunderbolt) but for Protean. Slightly stronger and slightly faster, yes, but the lack of Rapid Spin made it questionable why you'd run him just to run a combo of moves inferior to the Water/Electric/Ice triad that had seen Starmie reign for five generations. Starmie wasn't dethroned by Greninja. Starmie was dethroned by Protean. Protean Greninja made running Starmie the worse choice. Banning (Protean, because like hell it was really the entire species) Greninja meant the disgraced Starmie could return to his old OU haunt. If Starmie were to be given Protean tomorrow, Smogon would have him banned by next Sunday. It was never about Greninja. It is absolutely all about Protean.
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10-06-2016, 05:57 PM | #11 |
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Quick preface that all my comments are about Smogon Singles.
So I'm going to argue that Greninja will still be useful as Ash-Greninja, pretty much regardless of what stat boosts it gets. The key reason for this is that it's not the same thing as the Greninja with Protean- if Smogon keeps it banned or rebans it sometime through the gen, it will be the only Greninja allowable in OU. If Protean Gren stays the course of SMOU, then it will be the only Greninja allowable in lower tiers. For these purposes I'll be assuming the former is the case. So, with Protean Greninja banished to Ubers and thus not an option, Ash-Greninja is still an undeniably solid mon in its own right. Looking at base Greninja, even without Protean, it hits a VERY important speed tier of 122, which would make it faster than OU's fastest non-Mega threats such as Alakazam and Tornadus-Therian. It gets lots of useful support in Spikes/U-Turn/Taunt/Haze/Toxic Spikes, and the switches it can force allows it to set up Spikes for free frequently. While its ungodly offensive capabilities certainly tank, they aren't even bad in their own right. It's got loads of useful coverage for taking out certain threats (Low Kick, Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam, U-Turn, and Rock Slide are its useful offensive moves) and while its power isnt as nuts as it used to be, it's plenty to be useful. Slowbro, Starmie, Jirachi all have less than Greninja in their primary offensive stat, and Mixed behemoths such as Tyranitar and Garchomp have less in their secondary offensive stat than Greninja has in its own. Keep in mind, this is all Torrent Greninja, completely disregarding any potential buffs in stats or signature moves Ash-Greninja could get. I could very easily see it in OU when Protean Gren is in ubers, and in any other case it would at the very least be UU in my mind. |
10-06-2016, 07:01 PM | #12 |
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Oh yeah definitely, I was mostly arguing the fact that Ash-Greninja isn't going to result in being superior to Protean Greninja rather than that Ash-Greninja isn't going to be used at all. I could definitely see it being something tried out in OU at the very least, it just comes down to what it gains.
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10-06-2016, 10:07 PM | #13 |
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Talon, I would agree with your statement at the end of your post if not for the fact that Torrent Greninja is still Ubers, when we KNOW Smogon is capable of banning certain abilities instead of just the mon (and, in gourgeist's case, discriminating between forms in doing so). Blaze Blaziken suffers this too (really, Smogon? The fuck is up there?), when the only ability anyone in their right mind would take is Speed Boost, which was the actually problematic one. In much the same vein, no one ever took Torrent Greninja because "boost water moves in a pinch" was so hilariously inferior to "literally always have STAB" that "torrent or protean" wasn't even a serious question. While Protean in itself does not make a god out of just anyone (it's not going to help the likes of several PU denizens like Electrode or Swoobat, I'll tell ya that), it does become exceedingly dangerous on certain mon if you don't know how to play around their having it (Multiscale Yache Dragonite is still a wonderful check from full when equipped with Iron Head). So while Protean is the more noticeable issue...Why sweep Torrent Greninja up with it, if it's, as you say, entirely outclassed by Starmie? Either the ban council just didn't feel like exerting the effort for a complex, or they just wanted the frog itself gone as much as they wanted fire chicken out.
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10-08-2016, 12:13 AM | #14 |
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Did anyone do the calculus on how much Greninja's SpA would have to increase in order to equal the STAB granted from Protean?
Cause I mean, in such a case if SpA and Spd were the only stats boosted, and they got huge boosts, Ash-Greninja remains even more broken just because of the higher speed tier.
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10-08-2016, 12:40 AM | #15 | |
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Quote:
... But for humor's sake, let's do the math! ((((2 x 103 + 31 + (252/4)) * 100) / 100) + 5) * 1 = 305 I plugged in Greninja's base SpAtk stat of 103 just to confirm that we're doing the math right here. And we are -- for Greninja's max SpAtk (assuming a Timid nature, 252 EVs in SpAtk, and a 31 IV in Speed) is indeed 305. Alright. Cool. So ... we take this 305, and we multiply it by 1.5 to account for the STAB difference. 305 * 1.5 = 452.5 Alright. And now we take this 452.5 ... and we stick it on the other end of the equation, and solve for the new base stat! ((((2 x X + 31 + (252/4)) * 100) / 100) + 5) * 1 = 452.5 2 x X + 31 + (252/4) = 447.5 X = 176.75, which rounds up to 177 While a base stat of 177 would not be the highest we've ever seen, it would certainly be one of the highest. Some comparisons:
I'd like to point out, though, that if the anime is any indication, then we should be expecting Ash-Greninja to receive a buff to Attack before expecting one to Special Attack. After all, Ash's Greninja's moveset is Cut / Aerial Ace / Water Shuriken / Double Team. None of these moves are special moves. Three of these moves are physical moves.
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10-08-2016, 01:37 AM | #16 |
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So we're looking at a 90-100 point stat increase.
Mega Sceptile looks like the closest comp, getting its biggest boosts in Attack and Speed. Sceptile also starts with 530 total points, the same as Greninja. Also, there was a famous battle between Ash-Greninja and Mega Sceptile in the anime. I think the attack boost would have to be very, very substantial. Like 172 substantial. That's the only way possible I can think of a Water Shuriken overcoming a x4 resistance to Water.
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10-08-2016, 08:05 AM | #17 |
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>While Protean in itself does not make a god out of just anyone
Pour one out for Kecleon. |
10-08-2016, 09:04 AM | #18 |
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Protean Kecleon can actually be pretty annoying in the right hands. It gets Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch- the ability to change between being Ghost-type and Dark-type before the opponent can attack, you really have the potential to screw with people. At least in my experience, anyway.
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10-08-2016, 09:49 AM | #19 |
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It wouldn't be the first time a Pokemon got such big stat boosts (looking at you Mega Pidgeot and your 65 base Sp.Atk boost), but I sort of doubt it.
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10-17-2016, 10:15 PM | #21 |
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The eShop has crashed, brought to a grinding halt by what I can only presume is the overwhelming demand for the Sun & Moon demo. I didn't even see it on there (on the North America eShop), so I have to wonder just how bad it's gonna be tomorrow morning when all the North American kids wake up. -.-
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10-17-2016, 10:54 PM | #22 |
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10-17-2016, 11:00 PM | #24 | |
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Talking about Ash-Greninja in this thread as it pertains to the demo is fine, like Emi and MM's posts above are literally just about stats (which we now have info on), which is fine. As long as you don't spoil anything Sun/Moon related and keep it to Ash-Greninja, you're cool, just spoiler tag your post just to be safe.
Basically, keep all Sun/Moon demo spoilers not related to Ash-Greninja in the Sun/Moon thread Quote:
Last edited by deoxys; 10-17-2016 at 11:09 PM. |
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