04-13-2017, 01:52 AM | #26 | |
Problematic Fave
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04-13-2017, 02:40 AM | #27 | ||||
我が名は勇者王!
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*cough* Debate Forum *cough* Quote:
Regardless of the guidance, warnings and indigence toward Aposteriori, nothing speaks louder than punishment, and the first punishment (as I am lead to believe) was a permanent ban from PASBL. There was no opportunity for what I see as an "honest" second chance. If anything, the ban may have been incentive for retaliation in the form of FB abuse. Illegal alts are almost always registered by a revenge-motivated individual. Hence why the "temp ban" from the forum was largely useless. Aposteriori was banned from parts of the forum he never frequented, and then when he came back he was still permabanned from PASBL. How can you say Aposteriori learned his lesson when you took away his opportunity to show what he learned? Quote:
It isn't about a financial incentive to cheaters. See: the history of Diablo on Battle.net and how that lead to the creation of the ladder and Blizzard's vast anti-cheat infrastructure. UPN clearly thinks the TOS is agreed with the user, not the account, hence the justification behind banning alts. But agreeing to the TOS to post on the forum is not the same as agreeing to PASBL's rules to play there, so being banned from PASBL should likewise not extend back to the forum-level TOS (let alone FB's) unless Aposteriori was also violating the TOS alongside PASBL's rules. I feel like I'm repeating myself now, so I'll just quote myself: Quote:
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04-13-2017, 02:49 AM | #28 |
Mrow?
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Camping the White Market
Posts: 6,938
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Aposteriori's permaban from ASB was not his first punishment, just to clear that bit of misinformation up. He had recieved a temporary ban prior to that, and many, many warning along the way.
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04-13-2017, 03:03 AM | #29 |
我が名は勇者王!
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Well, that's a case closed then. I don't have anything further to say, except that I'm annoyed/disappointed I had to waste all this energy when all someone had to say was he wasn't a first time offender.
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04-13-2017, 03:30 AM | #30 |
The Uncultured One
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It was 100% a second chance, and it's pretty clear that a chunk of the community wouldn't have minded if his first ban was permanent. If he was banned for cheating at the game, then maybe it would have been. He was banned for being a colossal chodemunching assdweller, which is a community thing and nothing to do with it being ASB in particular. In your metaphor of Starcrafts, he wasn't banned for cheating, he was banned for being a toxic shit in the community. Also FB and ASB are probably a lot more interconnected than Starcraft I and II due to a rather large community overlap, so being banned for community stuff is a much larger issue, because a chunk of the community in both is the same people.
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04-13-2017, 04:24 AM | #31 |
我が名は勇者王!
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Again: Unless someone is literally threatening to split apart the forum, toxic posters are better off ignored and ostracized than banned.
Because all you've done is block off main street and roll out the red carpet for his Illegal Alt Parade. The #1 rule to defeating trolls is to not feed them.
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04-13-2017, 09:43 AM | #33 |
我が名は勇者王!
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That doesn't matter though! Being a douchebag is not a crime, and if that is the "real" reason he was banned (much like the constant baiting to get UM to self-incriminate) you all should feel bad, because that's pathetic. Not because the poster was trouble, but because the solution is very easy and effective if everyone cooperates.
This has happened on UPN before (with one of my best friends) and it happened at work, and I will probably see it again in some form. But I cannot, for the life of me, understand why people take things personally on the internet and cannot hit the ignore. Perhaps I grew up in an era where a screename is merely a pseudonym and not an alter ego. Perhaps it's because I have years of experience trolling and learned how to grind people down to a miserable, self-doubting puddle of paste. But ostracizing is the only real tool that works. It's like a community-enforced "hellban". By taking this route, you guys have only opened yourself to a recurring curse and exposed yourself a lacking self-control or self-discipline. Now, maybe Kuno's ignore function could use work. I still see the poster's hidden post in topics where I have ignore enabled. Other forums have their presence completely ablated unless someone quotes them, as if the post were deleted. Mods can see deleted posts so why not make the functions more similar?
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04-13-2017, 10:12 AM | #34 |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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Victims of cyberbullying can easily explain to you why it isn't a simple fix of hitting Ignore:
The toxic member continues to be a part of the community. It doesn't matter if you stick your head in the sand and ignore all the shitty things the person is saying about you or indeed doing to you. That person is still around. They're still whispering in people's ears. They're still spreading misinformation. They're still sowing discord. Ostracization doesn't work when less than 100% of the community engages in it. Everyone has to be on board for ostracization to really work. You've already demonstrated this, with your principled defenses of Aposteriori signaling that you would not have agreed to ignore him had you been approached and asked to do so by the ASB memberbase. Even if he had been successfully "banned" (read: ostracized) from ASB and FB, you would have still rolled out the welcome mat for him in the other corners of the forum. He wouldn't have moved on with his life, or allowed others here to move on with theirs. He would have continued to linger, for better or worse, and found new acquaintances with whom to discuss. Even when somebody is permanently banned from the forum, if people from the community decide to keep in touch with the offender elsewhere, he's still going to feel a connection to the community and he's still going to stick around on the fringes. We have demonstrable proof of this. I don't know why I should even have to explain to you the limitations of ostracization as a tool for punishing offensive members. Banning a member can be as much about providing relief to members of the community as it can be about punishing the offender. While no degree of banning can ever truly stamp out communications between the banned individual and lingering members of the community (unless of course no one wants to continue their relationships with the banned member, in which case you have achieved your 100% ostracization scenario), it can at least mitigate the damage. The banned member isn't as easily able to sow discord as before; they aren't as easily able to offend as before; they aren't as easily able to disrupt as before. Even if you can't fully remove their toxic presence, you can greatly reduce it through a hard ban. All of this stated, I am inclined to agree with you rather strongly that this scenario appears to bear more resemblance to the situation with UnownMew than it does with other members we have banned in the past. If you look at most of his final posts in the Fizzy Bubbles' Time Out thread, you can see a lot of similarities in how they composed themselves. First: Aposteriori was civil, polite, and rational in most of his writing, whereas his critics were frequently immature, impolite, or irrational in theirs. That's not to say that they are wrong or he is right, just that, I see a lot of similarities in terms of how the two composed themselves. UnownMew had that faultless Mormon disposition to him where, no matter how harsh you were to him, he would always maintain his composure and respond with kind words. He didn't call people "douchenozzles", "scumbags", or "sacks of excrement" the way that many of his critics here have done to him in the last few weeks. Second: it is clear that, from the wing(s) of the forum pushing for his ban, this was an almost universally unpopular member. It's not so much that he broke rules (I won't speak for ASB but I can't think of any flagrant rulebreaking he engaged in in FB) as it is that he engaged in practices which made people resent or despise him. In essence, people wanted him GONE. No matter the means. Any excuse would do. Any excuse to be rid of his presence once and for all. It feels similar to UnownMew, where the justification for his ban (his outspoken pedophilia on a forum which was only just then starting to cater to the under-15 crowd) came second to a long-brewing desire to be rid of the guy due to posts he had made in other discussions.
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04-13-2017, 11:11 AM | #35 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
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I'm going to take issue with the words civil and polite there, Talon. I think Sneaze pointed out already how Apost was definitely guilty of baiting, and whether or not Sneaze fell for it, that is not civil or polite. Also, trying to abuse the case of my interactions with him to make himself seem the victim despite the fact that literally everyone was telling him they weren't buying it is not civil or polite, it was a blatant attempt to be manipulative (another thing he likes to do).
In any case, we wanted him gone because his presence was nothing but a detriment to the community. He continued to be solely self serving, and was outright attempting to make FB trainer battles into new!ASB, which is the most roundabout way of circumventing a ban known to man. Hell, we told Meetan as soon as he reared his head exactly what kind of behavior to expect from him and she can tell you herself that from her own experience, such warnings were entirely justified. Anyway, if there is any rule that should never have to be written down that goes across the entirety of any forum, it should be don't harass the userbase. A great many of the people who were in FB during the time of Apost's stay will tell you that if Apost wanted something of theirs, he would never stop asking for it, because as has been said many times, Apost didn't know the meaning of the word no. I'd imagine you'd hate the guy too if he decided to pester you to no end for a Pokemon you'd been going after for a long time once you finally got it. That behavior is what has gotten Apost banned at this rate, because he can't keep from pestering anyone and everyone around him for his own benefit. Because let's face it, if Apost had just been breaking rules in FB specifically, Jeri could have just banned him from FB specifically, like he did ASB. The ban was not for FB specific behavior, because it was the same behavior that got him banned from ASB. In simpler terms, it wasn't because he expressed these behaviors in a specific game, it was because he expressed them repeatedly despite being told he should not by several warnings and a ban from ASB. Sure, he was supremely disliked, but that tends to come with the territory of problematic behavior. Because, you know, if it didn't bother anyone at all, it probably wouldn't be problematic, ya get me?
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04-13-2017, 11:36 AM | #36 | ||||||
我が名は勇者王!
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It's funny to me because of how childish it is, but the toxic environment has taken its toll as people leave and no one gets hired. That, rather than the verbal harassment, is what will ultimately doom these circumstances. Quote:
UPN has successfully ignored a poster before. User "Link" from last January was ignored by everyone, then banned after repeated rule violations. The only difference being that Link, unlike Aposteriori, had not infiltrated the community as deeply. Quote:
I've made a lot of effort to try and maintain connections to UM, but they've largely failed, especially since MSN was shutdown for Skype. Hence why my fears of AIM's someday shutdown will - potentially - drive me away from this place as well. Quote:
I did real damage to Zac Bertschy, eventually forcing him to step down as Answerman, because I was one of the first people to turn opinion against him, so every column he wrote he had to defend in the forums. And because of the nature of his column he was obligated to swallow baits, which attracted additional trolls. He would eventually incriminate himself and that was that, but before I was banned I was also cross-boarding (with 4chan, AnimeSuki, Arlong Park) and soliciting help through the PM system. UM was unintentionally offensive. Blastoise was sadistic. Aposteriori may have been either, but I was neither - my end goal was total destruction at any cost. ANN routinely dealt with the former two kind of trolls but wasn't prepared for my strain. Quote:
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04-13-2017, 12:57 PM | #37 |
Fog Badge
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,513
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There seems to be much conclusion jumping is happening here in regards to a member, and a situation, you have fully admitted you know very little about.
It seems to me the notion of banning someone on UPN in general is something that makes you uncomfortable, which is understandable given how the issue is somewhat personal to you due to past history, and because it's very, very seldom someone active gets wholly banned from the community due to how normally laid back everyone is. So I'm assuming that may be why you feel the need to take a stand on this issue... one that, again, you have admitted you only know the most barebones details of. I can assure you that as someone who by default has no horse in this particular race one way or the other due to my extremely limited personal interactions with Aposteriori over the years and no direct tie to the communities he frequented, that, as an outsider who has been looking in on this for a while now, it's pretty clear to me that the banning of this individual is wholly appropriate at this point. And if I didn't feel that it was, I would probably say something, as I'm sure you're well aware by now I am not afraid to do... You give someone a second chance, a third chance, a fourth chance, an eighth chance, a twelfth chance, and they fuck it up every time, it becomes clear there is probably no end in sight to the amount of times they will say "Sorry, won't happen again." At that point, you've issued multiple ultimatums, and they still haven't complied, what are you left with? They are bringing nothing to the community but toxicity and negativity and trolling and taking advantage of anyone they want, whenever they want, and it becomes clear they're just bringing down everyone around them intentionally. But if you want to call it just "being loyal to King George" or what have you just because of my demi-admin status, then it's whatever, I guess :l |
04-13-2017, 03:13 PM | #38 | ||
Problematic Fave
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...is what I would say if it didn't seem like you finally actually did that. So now my rage is directionless and will eventually fizzle out somewhere beyond the planet Mars, in the cold dead expanse of space.
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04-13-2017, 03:50 PM | #39 | ||||||
我が名は勇者王!
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What's the problem? I don't understand the timid. Quote:
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You know the famous, faux Voltaire quote? Quote:
Also, I didn't want to talk anymore because I considered the matter cased closed, but whatever. I got to talk about different things this time.
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04-15-2017, 10:22 AM | #40 |
uhhhhh
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: home
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Oh Apost definitely was fucking power mad more than they tried to be a troll, but honestly it was much worse than a troll because while a troll you cna ignore, someone who was as incessantly power-oriented as Apost you can't because they will always work behind the scenes, behind whoever put him on Ignore, and just would not stop because of it.
They often targeted newer members and really groomed them so that they would effectively become their tools to use to get ahead i the game, making the entire game pracitcally revolve around him and giving him much more power than any normal member should have. I should not that I myself have very little real knowledge of this either though, as I barely ever really was involved with all this shit, but when Apos did approach me it was very persistent and manipulate so i petition to unban the both of them because the fallout was funny |
04-15-2017, 12:39 PM | #41 | ||
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,728
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What you have said has been all over the place, so I will just refer to it from the beginning. If your stance has changed in any of the below cases before this post, feel free to just say so.
It is a very real tactic for abusers (whether physical or emotional) to abuse someone, then apologize and go right back to abusing them, rinse and repeat ad nauseum, or deny that what they did constituted abuse in the first place. Either way, the abuser in question continues doing what they have been doing. Quote:
(i) cut all ties with the abuser the first time if possible (the equivalent in this case being the "global ban from the beginning" that you mentioned); this is perfectly justified, if, as you said, the abused deems the offense severe enough to warrant this. (ii) bear with it if they do not deem the offense severe enough the first time. This is where the problem begins. What if the abused do not deem it fair to cut all ties the very first time? This is also perfectly fair, because people are not always capable of reading exactly where a situation will go. There is a very real chance that the abused may want to give the abuser a second chance (as was given in this case, even before the permanent PASBL ban, and as you yourself suggested through your mentions of a "second chance" and "rehabilitation" over the course of this thread). Now, this becomes the testing ground for determining whether the abuser in question is inclined to mend their ways or to continue as they have been. You have stated that repeated offenses warrant only the same degree of disciplinary action, that a more severe ban on a repeated offense (or, one could say, an entire streak of repeated offenses) is unfair. This stance is myopic -- it fails to account for the fact that each offense does not, in fact, exist in a vacuum, and that punishment does not erase traces of previous offenses. Instead, offenses accumulate. The severity of a repeated offense is not just of itself, but the sum of itself and previous offenses. This means it is automatically more severe, and, even going by your own ideal of "appropriate punishment according to offense", justifies the fact that a global ban was not levied the first time, but was after the offenses continued flooding in. ----- This is aside from the fact that your attack on a "discretionary" ban is itself questionable. As Snorby has previously pointed out in this thread, UPN does not actually have a set of codified and regularly enforced rules. There is, therefore, no set of rules to stick to in the first place, and this intrinsically means that every ban would be based on discretion. Your statements are also contradictory in that you point out that such a ban might be justified in some situation: one wherein the offender is "threatening to split apart the forums"... except that deeming whether the offender is doing so is in itself subjective, discretionary. There would probably be those who would, in fact, say that Aposteriori was threatening to do so. Ah, except for another thing Snorby (among multiple others) pointed out -- the one rule we have is "don't be a douche". Quote:
Furthermore, your mention of "cliques" leads me to believe that you are ignoring the scale to which the problem had grown. This was not a vocal minority speaking, it was an overwhelming majority. This ban was not "tyrannical", as you seem to imply, because it represented the overall view of the community. It was not based on one person's principles, but nearly the entire community's. To be frank, this has been made amply clear in this very thread; you cannot be unaware of this. Last edited by Mew The Gato; 04-15-2017 at 12:59 PM. |
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04-15-2017, 08:45 PM | #42 | |||||
我が名は勇者王!
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The problem was twofold: Jeri deemed the first offense not severe enough to warrant a global ban, even though it was one. In order to downgrade a global ban to an RP ban, there had to be some (1) guidance Aposteriori was to follow and (2) some connection between the poster's interest and the punishment to negatively reinforce that behaviour. (2) was never a thing in this case. Aposteriori's criminal history should have had no bearing on his offenses in FB. For example, had he immediately stopped using the name "Aposteriori" and merely registered under a different account for FB, he should have received the same punishment Aposteriori was given in PASBL. Not because he was a first-time offender (as according to you all, he was warn-banned before) but because Jeri set a precedent that the offense wasn't grievous enough for a global ban. If you global ban one poster but temp ban another for the same offense, that is discretion/favouritism/corruption or what have you. I would argue, because of how Jeri went around punishing Aposteriori for PASBL, he should have been treated as a new poster for purposes of his FB crimes. And as I just mentioned, the new poster shouldn't get a more severe punishment than the older one. People forget that jail - or, in this case, banning - is an old time punishment for the community's benefit more than the offender, though Talon mentioned as much. If anything, a ban might make the poster more likely to repeat offend unless they have a clear incentive to change (like they want to maintain friendships). A temp ban knowing Aposteriori was not going to change is reckless. A temp ban without some plan in place for encouraging Aposteriori to change is foolish. Ergo, it should have been a permaban or there should have been some clear connection between. Like, I think had UM been banned from the Debate Forum, which was hardly his only interest on UPN and was the only place he was griefing others, he'd still be with us today. It's not a guarantee, but if he kept his talk to anime, video games and whatnot I think he'd be alright. A certain friend of mine was a militant homophobe who I was able to turn into an LGBT tolerant, only because I was able to maintain conversation due to shared interest in anime/manga. It's important skill to not only determine who is open to change but how to approach them in a way that isn't confrontational. Quote:
Like it or not, communities cannot bar child sex offenders from living in an area where children are present. They are added to a list and the community members are notified, but barring them from an area is further punishment for the sex offense, and so is disallowed. This is basic, first-world legal jurisprudence. UPN cannot claim to be a welcoming place it if can't even meet this standard. Quote:
As I pointed out before, I acknowledge that it's impossible for anything involving judgment to be discretion-free. But there is a clear preference toward minimizing it and in this particular case, I think a proper judgment call earlier would have prevented having to make a more ambitious judgment call later. Quote:
Whether Aposteriori was this grave a threat, is not my call, as I am an uninvolved, uninformed third party. But from what I'm told, the RP community dropped the ball big time in policing itself. Quote:
FYI, I have Clubs and Social Projects hidden. My last major sortie in there was 2013's Murder at Mahogany and Dangan Ronpa: UPN. The only time I ever bother to go in there these days is when there's a red alert for the Emotional Baggage Thread.
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04-16-2017, 12:22 AM | #43 | |
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04-16-2017, 12:28 AM | #44 |
Caffeinated
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#BringBackDT
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04-16-2017, 01:19 AM | #45 | ||
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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04-16-2017, 03:59 AM | #46 | ||
我が名は勇者王!
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For example, random Google response because I'm on break: Quote:
IMO, FB should not have allowed Aposteriori to join in the first place, but that's neither here nor there.
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04-16-2017, 04:41 AM | #47 | ||
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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NO, IT'S NOT DOUBLE JEOPARDY! "Double jeopardy" is being tried for the exact same instance of a crime twice. "Double jeopardy" is not being tried for the same general crime twice, nor is it what you've quoted me discussing -- which was judges using a person's prior convictions, or "priors", to determine appropriate sentencing.
Example by way of O.J. Simpson:
Slam dunk evidence in the form of drug trafficking laws: Quote:
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Indiana is one of those states where first-time offenses can be misdemeanors whereas second or third-time offenses of the same crime can evolve into felonies. Suddenly you go from a slap on the wrist to house arrest or prison time. Even if the crime remains in the same category, as is the case with Louisiana and possession of small amounts of marijuana, the severity of the punishment escalates from a maximum of six months to a maximum of twenty years behind bars. The amount possessed can be identical. The crime itself, illegal possession, is identical. But the punishment meted out is severely different, and it's all because of the prior convictions.
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04-16-2017, 08:34 AM | #48 | |||||
我が名は勇者王!
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If you commit murder twice in your life, using the first murder as an excuse to make the second murder's sentence longer is double jeopardy. Because you are applying the second sentence's conviction + interest from the first, which is, in fact, further punishing the original sentence. You can't do that. Quote:
Why would a judge prevent criminal history as being admitted to a courtroom - to prevent undue prejudice against the defendant - if that prior conviction is already going to weigh on their own decision on the sentencing weightiness of the punishment? Quote:
But see my murder example from earlier. The exact same murder, with the exact same circumstances, would stack as a crime but not make one crime heavier than the other. Otherwise, you run into weird situations where one person kills two people in a day, one in the morning and one at night, and another kills two with a 10 year period in between, but the latter gets a harsher punishment than the first due to the "prior criminal history". THAT SAID, there are venues in place for more activist/discretionary punishment. You can get a much larger punishment for a crime by an activist judge for unrelated crimes, but they can't be one you've already been punished for - they must be uncharged or acquitted. An even then, the punishment isn't equivalent to being convicted of the more serious charge outright. Quote:
You are being charged as a "repeat offender: marijuana possession", and you can only be eligible for this if convicted and properly punished for the "marijuana possession". At risk of deviating too far from the topic at hand, I will, again, point out that Aposteriori was inappropriately punished for his PASBL offenses, so he is not a true "repeat offender". In the definition of recidivism, we see: Quote:
I'm going to keep hammering this because I've been saying it from the very first post in this thread: Jeri's initial punishment was inappropriate, for a number of reason, and he admitted so himself. The second punishment was a correction that shouldn't have had to happen, and actually jives with the precedent set by the first one.
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04-16-2017, 10:52 AM | #50 |
Caffeinated
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I don't know, it's kind of a naughty horse. Maybe it likes it.
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