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Old 12-28-2014, 06:37 PM   #3726
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I can definitely see where they are coming from with this ban (especially having made an HO team towards the end of X & Y, Greninja was always one-step away from murdering me), but I'd personally not like to see Greninja go, its a cool Poke. But I do think a ban would be justified.
This is my feeling exactly. I want Greninja to stay, but it's not like some previous bans that I haven't been sure if they were entirely justified.
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Old 12-28-2014, 07:17 PM   #3727
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Greninja ban would be significantly more justified than Aegislash imo
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Old 12-28-2014, 08:03 PM   #3728
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Even my experience in VGC 2015 speaks to how justified this ban is. Greninja is one of the few mon that can wreck me if it gets any momentum at all, and carries an answer to most of my team.

In OU where you can't double target the relative frailty that balances him in Doubles is way less relevant. His always STAB plus the speed make Greninja overpowering.
In my experience from using him in both OU and (very briefly) VGC 2014, I strongly disagree.

1. Greninja is an exemplar of what it means to be OU. Not Ubers. Not UU. OU. Smogon is wrong to ban the frog but is steadily morphing New Ubers into a tier that I think will eventually become New OU, with Anything Goes being where a chock ton of ubers will be banished as time progresses.

2. Greninja was a rather poor specimen in VGC 2014. While ORAS move tutors have given him more physical options to play with (thus making him more unpredictable), he's still not that different from what he was just a few months ago. Dies in one hit to Kangaskhan, dies in one hit to Mawile, dies in one hit to Talonflame, and pretty much dies in one hit to any of the premier priority users. Placing priority aside, he's only marginally stronger than Starmie (significantly so but still not heinously so) -- he is not hitting things as hard as a Mega Alakazam or a Mega Manectric. In fact, he's not even outspeeding them once they're in their mega forms.

3. I've pretty much given up on Smogon at this point. If I'm in the spirit to troll, I'll consider passing reqs just to vote against the lynch mob. But frankly, I see the ban passing no matter what happens and it will only affirm my desire to not play in Smogon OU anymore.
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Old 12-28-2014, 08:06 PM   #3729
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What "does" it mean to be OU?
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Old 12-28-2014, 08:26 PM   #3730
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What "does" it mean to be OU?
Not gonna pretend that this isn't subjective to a great degree. But insofar as I can try to objectify it, I would say that Greninja is less "too good for OU" than was Gen 4 Garchomp, Gen 5 Sand Rush Excadrill, and -- amongst things they chose to keep around -- Gen 5 Keldeo and Gen 5 Terrakion. Greninja would have been a ban-worthy terror in Gen 5 in much the same way that Excadrill was. The problem is, Gen 6 isn't Gen 5. And Gen 6 has been defined as the Priority Generation. While nothing happens overnight and the meta was in motion for quite a while, everything came to a point with XY when it comes to priority. We saw pre-existing Sucker Punch users becoming more viable as well as new viable Sucker Punch users arriving on the scene. We saw the birth of Gale Wings. And we saw an entire legion of Prankster users. All of this led to a meta which was more hostile towards Greninja, that took better advantage of his natural fragility, than was Gen 5 towards Excadrill or Gen 4 towards Garchomp. In Gen 5, Steel resisted Normal, Dark, and (though irrelevant at the time) Flying. This meant that Excadrill resisted every priority attack outside of Ice Shard. And Ice Shard wasn't OHKOing shit aside from 4x-weak-to-Ice dragons. In Gen 6, on the other hand ...
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 325-384 (113.6 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 219-258 (76.5 - 90.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Talonflame can OHKO without the band and will guaranteed OHKO with it.
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 770-908 (269.2 - 317.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 208-246 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 114-135 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (calculation assumes Greninja is Water-typed and Dark-typed at the time the attack hits)
Greninja cannot OHKO Mega Mawile no matter what. Mawile is free to attack with either Play Rough, going for the jugular, or else to finish off an already-weakened Greninja with Sucker Punch. Or hell: attack the incoming switch-in! Mega Mawile doesn't care. Mega Mawile does what it wants!
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 402-474 (140.5 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
We're done. Mega Manectric outspeeds and OHKOs with ease.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Don't get me wrong. Given all of the crap the OU Ban Council has already banned, I can well appreciate that Greninja is stronger than he'd otherwise be. No Mega Kangaskhan, no Mega Mawile, etc. But the thing is, you do still have Talonflame. You do still have Mega Manectric. You do still have faster band and specs users, bulky Pokémon who can weather Greninja's beatings, and more. Greninja is great, absolutely. He's essentially a better Starmie, which is why he replaced Starmie on my own OU team. But he isn't broken. There is too much speedy shit running around for a speed of 125 to make something utterly broken in this day and age. There is too much priority, too much Scarf, too much raw base Speeds of 130+. And a Special Attack of 103, while good, is by no means great in this day and age. It's serviceable. That's exactly what it is and all it will ever be: serviceable. He makes it work because of Protean. Starmie struggled as the generations progressed because he was able to OHKO fewer and fewer things. You know what Starmie's base SpAtk is? 100. Literally three measly points lower. Protean amplifies non-Water, non-Dark things by 1.5x thanks to the STAB it confers, but that's it. We're not talking base attack stats of 160 here, guys. We're talking 103 in the SpAtk column and 95 in the Atk column. If your team can't handle STAB Atk of 95, then maybe your team isn't cut out for OU.
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Old 12-28-2014, 09:09 PM   #3731
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I dont need priority to at least put a severe bruising on Greninja: Weavile is awesome like that, being one of the few non mega things that can naturally outspeed Greninja (unless the frog is scarfed and lol who does that), and it gets Brick Break, along with a great Attack Stat. And all most Greninja will probably do in return is U-Turn out to be killed later if they survive. Honestly, if there was a time to get rid of the frog, it was way back in the dawn of Gen 6, back when we didn't have a solid answer to it. But now we've done with Greninja what we weren't given the time for with Aegislash: we found a way to shift the meta to punish it in the form of priority. Of course, I never went the priority route so much as either Weavile use or having Ice Beam bait carry a Yache, dance up and kill next turn with a nice Dragon Claw, which was always so satisfying.

TL;DR: While I'm not really invested in this test as I don't run Greninja on my OU squad these days, it's far too late to be throwing the frog out.
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Old 12-28-2014, 09:24 PM   #3732
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Weavile is as relevant as Porygon2 was when they suspected Landorus: not. There are things that do outspeed Greninja, but the issue is:

a) They are either scarfed, and its pretty obvious when they are.
B) They have to revenge kill, at which point Greninja has already killed one Pokemon. Having to sack Pokemon after Pokemon after Pokemon is not a great way to deal with anything.

We actually have less Pokemon to battle Greninja now Myles after it got Gunk Shot and Low Kick. Greninja is more powerful now that it ever was.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:24 PM   #3733
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Too bad Mega Mawile was banned, she could deal with Greninja pretty handily
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:26 PM   #3734
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To be fair, Greninja did get plenty of new checks with the ORAS megas, like Mega Beedrill, Sceptile, and Lopunny. However, the things like Clefable and AV Kyurem Black that were soft counters to XY Gren but are now utterly destroyed are far greater in number.

>Roto

Mega Mawile cant even handle Greninja that well

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 229-273 (80.6 - 96.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 208-246 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:27 PM   #3735
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I wouldn't rate any of those to be checks. They all hate coming in on Greninja.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:31 PM   #3736
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The definition of a check has gotten incredibly skewed as of late.

Directly from Smogon:

"Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

As last I checked, those three megas can do this. Hell, even regular Lopunny can if it packs Fake Out.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:34 PM   #3737
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They all get 2HKOd though. Checks really shouldn't be getting 2HKO'd by the Pokemon they are supposed to check, because you can just switch.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:37 PM   #3738
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That's my point exactly. You and many other are trying to change what a check is, when by definition, those are irrefutable checks to Greninja. Rather soft checks? You betcha! But that doesnt change the fact that there are, and always will be checks to Greninja.

I understand your point, which is that those 3 mons are by no means reason to keep Greninja in OU, which is a statement I whole-heartedly agree with, but it's always been a pet peeve of mine when people don't use the term "check" properly.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:41 PM   #3739
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Very soft checks really, that are very luck/prediction reliant. Mega Beedrill comes in on HP Fire, Hydro Pump, or Extrasensory, its going to lose. Mega Sceptile coming in on Gunk Shot or Ice Beam (the move that's the most spammable on Greninja), its dead. Lopunny coming in on Extrasensory and maybe Low Kick? It's dead. They don't do much other than force it out, and you still have five other Pokemon on your team.

They can come in via Volt Switch or U-Turn but unless its Forry Greninja gets KO'ed by that anyways.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:42 PM   #3740
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Actually, I have a pretty decent way to make sure Weavile can switch into the frog and do its work, though it's suited to me a little more as I tend to run just what The method needs: Ice Beam Bait. Have the Ice Beam bait take something out. Nine times outta ten, Greninja will come in to try to Ice Beam it out. Switch to Weavile this turn, take resisted Ice Beam. Brick Break to your heart's content: You've either forced Greninja off the field or you're about to make it suffer. I'd recommend having Weavile hold an expert belt for this for the hardier types. What I like about this is that not only can it give the frog trouble, Weavile and Ice Beam Bait Dragons are very strong offensive players, and so you're not losing out on two team slots, either, as they're not single purpose. Not to mention that Expert Belt Weavile gets a lot of coverage done very well as it can cover everything weakness wise save for bug and fire. Of course, you'll won't be having any status moves with you in order to do it, but the coverage is well worth it.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:49 PM   #3741
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Except if your opponent has rocks up Weavile can only do this once and Greninja can just switch
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:49 PM   #3742
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>Blaze

You're still completely missing my point bro, but I'm not gonna argue this anymore 'cause we're going in circles c:

>Myles
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 94-109 (33.4 - 38.7%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

not so great a way to beat gren, bro.

Anywho,

Until Greninja gets its rightful axe, a good way to deal with Greninja I've found (on paper, at least) is play on its 4MSS by bringing multiple checks. Say you have a T-Wave Ferrothorn with enough defense investment that it isn't 2HKO'd by Low Kick. excellent. That loses to HP Fire. HP Fire and Low Kick are almost never run together, so something that loses to Low Kick, bad example but for the sake of argument let's say AV Kyurem-Black, can be paired with that Ferrothorn to beat Greninja somewhat effectively.

Once again, by no means ideal, but for those of us who are playing in some sort of standard OU tournament, that's probably your best bet outside of momentum killers like Chansey and P2.

Edit: Oh, Rotom beat me to it about Weavile :c
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:54 PM   #3743
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Yeah I'm aware you can just stack Greninja checks, its a great way to beat it. But Greninja isn't the only Pokemon you have to prepare for either. There are, at least, 50 or so more viable OU Pokemon that you need to prepare for, and Greninja requiring at least 2 checks is a huge deal. Not to mention your checks could be easily removed by your opponent, then you are up shits creek without a paddle, because there are so few ways to get rid of it.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:54 PM   #3744
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>Roto

Mega Mawile cant even handle Greninja that well

252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 229-273 (80.6 - 96.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mawile: 208-246 (73.2 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Unless something weird is happening in ORAS OU, HP:Fire is a cherrypicked answer. No one runs that. (Or did when I last played.) Hydro Pump / Surf / Scald, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, and Grass Knot / HP:Grass for special options; Gunk Shot and Low Kick for physical options; and Spikes & Co. for support options. Who the hell is running HP:Fire on their Greninja -- and more importantly why!?
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:55 PM   #3745
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Thunder Wave Ferrothorn.

EDIT: Also more defensive Scizor variants.
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Old 12-28-2014, 11:59 PM   #3746
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Yeah I'm aware you can just stack Greninja checks, its a great way to beat it. But Greninja isn't the only Pokemon you have to prepare for either. There are, at least, 50 or so more viable OU Pokemon that you need to prepare for, and Greninja requiring at least 2 checks is a huge deal. Not to mention your checks could be easily removed by your opponent, then you are up shits creek without a paddle, because there are so few ways to get rid of it.
For perhaps the fourth or fifth time tonight, you completely miss my point. I'm not even going to bother anymore :[

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Unless something weird is happening in ORAS OU, HP:Fire is a cherrypicked answer. No one runs that. Hydro Pump / Surf / Scald, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, and Grass Knot / HP:Grass for special options; Gunk Shot and Low Kick for physical options; and Spikes & Co. for support options. Who the hell is running HP:Fire on their Greninja -- and more importantly why!?
Hidden Power Fire is rather common for beating Ferrothorn and Scizor. Significantly more common than HP Grass and Extrasensory, anyway.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:02 AM   #3747
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Or maybe you could be more clear on what you points are.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:05 AM   #3748
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Except if your opponent has rocks up Weavile can only do this once and Greninja can just switch
If it just switches oh look you managed to force it off the field and that's nice, you can focus on the rest of the guy's team. And if you're not dealing with rocks then you're doing something oh so horribly wrong.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:08 AM   #3749
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You forced it away and it can come in any time soon to kill someone else and then switch out. This is helped by the fact that Weavile is really fragile.
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Old 12-29-2014, 12:08 AM   #3750
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Thunder Wave Ferrothorn.
That doesn't seen like a good answer. Put your Ferrothorn answer elsewhere. It isn't meant to be Greninja. It wasn't in XY, I fail to see why it is being expected to be in ORAS.

- you need STAB Water because ... well because you do, that's why! [/logic]
- STAB Ice Beam, yes please
- you want a way to deal with Venusaur ... (Extrasensory)
- and at the same time Rotom-Wash (HP:Grass) and other Waters (Grass Knot)
- it would be nice to have a pivot (U-Turn)
- how about some mixed mayhem? (Gunk Shot)
- Dark Pulse for all your Psychic-slaying needs

Has Ferrothorn's usage changed significantly since three months ago? If not, then why the sudden migration to HP:Fire at the expense of one of your other, broader answers to threats?
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