Online Competitive Pokemon Battle Showdown Happy Fun Times

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12

Checks dont need to switch in safely.

Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12

Checks do NOT need to switch in safely.

Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12

That is EXACTLY what I just said...

When I say "switch in safely," I mean being able to eat up an attack and still be able to KO the opponent.

Scarf Hydreigon can CHECK Greninja because he canNOT safely switch into any of Greninjas attacks, but he can outspeed and OHKO with Draco Meteor

You seem very confused.

Originally Posted by Talon87

You're the one who's gotten it backwards. Checks require a safe switch-in. Counters are such solid answers that they can switch in with impunity.

I repeat what I said before: a counter, by definition, is a Pokémon which not only defeats the other Pokémon in question but which can switch in against it with impunity. Per your own example, Blissey is a counter to Greninja because she can switch in against Greninja with impunity. She will win the 1v1 match-up ninety-nine times out of one hundred. A check, on the other hand, is some Pokémon which can threaten the enemy out or even KO it provided it is given a free opportunity to switch in (be it due to Baton Pass from a slower Pokémon, be it due to U-Turn from a slower Pokémon, be it due to sacrificing one of your other creatures -- whatever) but which cannot win the match-up if it is switched in with reckless abandon. Quoting the article I linked you to,

"Because Mamoswine cannot manually switch into Bisharp and win every time, Mamoswine does not counter Bisharp."

By definition, you have to be able to switch in and still come out on top ~every time to be called a counter. If you can't do that, then at best you're a check. The author of the article echoes this in his conclusion:

"Remember, A checks B if it can beat B every time given a free switch into B; and A counters B if A can manually switch into B and win every time."

[Cloneblazer12]

^THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID -_-

YOURE the one thats confused.

Let me spell out exactly what Im saying: Scarfed Hydreigon CANNOT safely switch into ICE BEAM From Greninja. HOWEVER, he can switch in FROM ANY of either BATON PASS, VOLT SWITCH, UTURN, or A POKEMON HAS BEEN KO'd. That being said, since he OUTSPEEDS with the scarf, he CHECKS Greninja with Draco Meteor.

Make Sense?

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12

Scarfed Hydreigon CANNOT safely switch into ICE BEAM From Greninja.

Which means that he needs to switch in safely. Which means ...

Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12

Checks dont need to switch in safely.

Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12

Checks do NOT need to switch in safely.

... you are very confused or else very, very stubborn about admitting when you've said something incorrect.

[Cloneblazer12]

Originally Posted by Talon87

Which means that he needs to switch in safely. Which means ...



... you are very confused or else very, very stubborn about admitting when you've said something incorrect.

Youre the one whos confused. I explained myself right then and there EXACTLY what I meant by that

Doesnt have to switch in safely = NOT HAVING TO TAKE AN ATTACK

Switching in safely = Having to survive whatever Greninja has to throw at him and still win

[Rangeet]

Um...clone...do you know the difference between "doesn't" and "can't? Because a check has to switch in safely but can't switch in safely(under normal circumstances.) A check NEEDS to switch in safely via U-turn or Baton-Pass or whatever.


So what I came in here to ask was, why in BW was Dusknoir RU but Dusclops UU? Dusknoir has higher stats in everything, so...makes zero sense to me.

[KamenAeons]

I'm thinking it's because with Eviolite, Dusclops has crazy high bulk. I mean, 195 in both defenses is nothing to sneeze at. Compare this to Dusknoir's 135 Defenses.

Then again, the good thing about Dusknoir is the fact that it can get something like Leftovers recovery, which it desperately needs with its base 45 HP. It can hold its own in battle as well due to its Base 100 Attack in comparison to Dusclops' base 70 Attack.

I'm guessing it's just a matter of usage. *shrugs*

[phoopes]

Oh neat, I just looked at the sprites. They re-used a bunch of them from last year, but made some slight edits it seems. (I made Blaziken and Lopunny last year)

Also the suspecting Xard and Yard was an April Fool's joke.

[KamenAeons]

lmao. Knew it had to be a joke. mCharX/Y have too many checks and counters that can reliably take them out. There is no way in hell that they would be on the chopping block.

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper

Um...clone...do you know the difference between "doesn't" and "can't? Because a check has to switch in safely but can't switch in safely(under normal circumstances.) A check NEEDS to switch in safely via U-turn or Baton-Pass or whatever.


So what I came in here to ask was, why in BW was Dusknoir RU but Dusclops UU? Dusknoir has higher stats in everything, so...makes zero sense to me.

So Dusclops has Base 130 Defense and SpDef (I think) while Dusknoir has base 135 Defenses. For Dusclops, you can give it an Eviolite and bam, it has far better defenses than Dusknoir. And Dusclops doesn't need Leftovers a lot, because it has viable recovery in Pain Split.

Or at least that's what I think.

[Cloneblazer12]

Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12

Doesnt have to switch in safely = NOT HAVING TO TAKE AN ATTACK

Switching in safely = Having to survive whatever Greninja has to throw at him and still win

I've explained my terminology. People on Smogon understand what I mean. People on Serebii understand what I mean. I fail to see how you don't understand what I mean.

This is my last post on this subject. I've explained myself, and this is just getting stupid.

[Rangeet]

Sorry but I still have no idea what you mean Clone so.

Anyway yeah I completely forgot Eviolite was a thing. Whoops! Thanks though.

[Cloneblazer12]

-_-

Anyways Duslops is higher up than Dusknoir for the same reason Chansey is usually preferred over Blissey: Eviolite. Since there's a 50% increase in bulk for the price of One Leftovers, most people will take the increased bulk.

Also Pain Split is shaky at best. Dusclops and Cofagrigus need Recover more than anything else.

[Jerichi]

Eviolite Dusclops is murdered by Knock Off tho.

[rotomotorz]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

Eviolite Dusclops is murdered by Knock Off tho.

SO much this though

[Cloneblazer12]

Originally Posted by Jerichi

Eviolite Dusclops is murdered by Knock Off tho.

Same with Chansey and AV users. Knock Off is awesome this gen.

[Princess Ana]

Eviolite Dusclops was UU for the same reason Ambipom was UU; newbs never realized its crap and kept using it. Dusclops was terrible in the Gen V UU, it should have been RU.

[Kindrindra]

Just popping in to say, Clone, everyone else, you guys are totally agreeing with eachother. You're just getting confused and arguing because of a miscommunication. Like 'geet said, the only confusion here is the difference between "doesn't" and "can't".

*Run Away*

[Cloneblazer12]

Kinindra gets it...

Anyways Choice Band Azumarill is amazing. I don't have a replay, but I basically 6-0d a team with her. It's not the first time either.

Originally Posted by blazeVA

Eviolite Dusclops was UU for the same reason Ambipom was UU; newbs never realized its crap and kept using it. Dusclops was terrible in the Gen V UU, it should have been RU.

Ambipom had a niche in Technician Fake Out and Double Hit, with Scouting with U-Turn. He wasn't bad perse, just somewhat outclassed.

[KamenAeons]

Also Mienshao likes to abuse LO'ed Fake Out then U-Turn to return healed up by Regenerator. I got trolled by it so many times. And then lol Gourgeist happened.

[rotomotorz]

Gourgeist is the bane of Mienshao's existence. Not even boosted acrobatics will OHKO it(I think)

[KamenAeons]

Nope. Wrecked by Phantom Force/Seed Bomb

Spoiler: show

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Gourgeist-Small: 122-146 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Gourgeist-Small Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 127-151 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO

4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Phantom Force vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 147-174 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Gourgeist-Super Seed Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 132-156 (48.7 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 96-114 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

[Princess Ana]

Anyone who keeps a Meinshao on Gourgeist is just begging to be killed.

>Ambipom's niche

Having a niche does not mean the Poke is good. It's a terrible niche quite frankly. Ambipom is Steel bait, doesn't have a low of power which means anything with even a smidgen of physical bulk will give it troubles(I was famous for using a dual intimidate core for neutering it), and its coverage leaves it oddly lacking at times. It would be good in RU, for sure, but its not good in UU.

[Fallen Icarus]

Anyone using a LO Acrobatics Mienshao is begging to be killed .-.

[rotomotorz]

Originally Posted by rotomotorz

Gourgeist is the bane of Mienshao's existence. Not even boosted acrobatics will OHKO it(I think)

Gourgeist doesn't learn Acrobatics, so...

[Princess Ana]

Originally Posted by Fallen Icarus

Anyone using a LO Acrobatics Mienshao is begging to be killed .-.

Also this.

Originally Posted by rotomotorz

Gourgeist doesn't learn Acrobatics, so...

>reads own post wrong

Good job!