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Old 01-15-2011, 03:07 PM   #176
Talon87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
If we assume the simplest scenario - there are two personalities, Inubushi Keiko and Suzukage Hotori - and that she has been correctly diagnosed with DID, I can conclude that Keiko is at least aware Hotori exists, because both personalities identify as Hotori. If Keiko is aware of being Hotori, and claims to be such, I can infer she may be cunning enough to try and disguise her identity. Reasons unknown. It's entirely possible that the capacity for socipathy might be in one personality (mute girl), while the intent might be in the other (talky girl).
Which means you're thinking Theory C or Theory D (from the first level of my spoiler last post). So now you have to try and figure out, given the evidence, which personality is in which time frame. Is Kokoro seeing imposter Hotori or real Hotori? Is Satoru seeing imposter Hotori or real Hotori? Are they each seeing both? And are either of them ever seeing neither?

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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
The most puzzling mystery is why Keiko/Hotori behaves differently around Satoru and Kokoro, as if her personality change is chained to theirs. If I were Satoru, I'd pretend to be Kokoro just to see what's going on with her. Why isn't Yuni taking greater exception to the mute-talky personalities?
You have to keep in mind, Blick: you know she's behaving differently, but they don't know. Recall from Kokoro's path: she and Satoru never communicated much about Keiko/Hotori via their diary notes. When they did, it was stuff like Kokoro warning Satoru to be careful (since Keiko's a serial killer) and Satoru chiding her saying that the Hotori he knows doesn't seem violent. Likewise, Satoru never told Kokoro much of anything about his experiences with Utsumi. This is why so much of you're seeing from Utsumi feels fresh and new -- because when you played as Kokoro, you never saw this side of her and Satoru never told you about it either.

Yuni, on the other hand, should be more phased by it. But for some reason, he's not.
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Old 01-15-2011, 04:38 PM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Which means you're thinking Theory C or Theory D (from the first level of my spoiler last post). So now you have to try and figure out, given the evidence, which personality is in which time frame. Is Kokoro seeing imposter Hotori or real Hotori? Is Satoru seeing imposter Hotori or real Hotori? Are they each seeing both? And are either of them ever seeing neither?
I just got to the scene where Satoru challenged Hotori, and induced some kind of emotionally-linked convulsion. At this point, Hotori shifted from "talky girl" to "mute girl" just in time to greet Kokoro.

From what I remember, "mute girl" was noticeably distressed by the dead rat. "talky girl", who had sympathetically dispatched it, wasn't bothered by that at all. However, though "talky girl" was quite averse to the idea that it was from sick pleasure like what Satoru was accusing her of.

If "talky girl" is a liar, I can't take anything she says as fact. But if she isn't, I think she's genuinely adverse to the killing and is putting up a front to try and rationalize doing so. When she killed the rat, I'd naturally assumed she humanely "euthanized" it. On Satoru's initial press, she led me to think she didn't sympathize with the rat at all, but Satoru eventually coached out that idea after a lot of conversation. Outside of communication difficulties, that kind of transition isn't seen in someone with firm, resolute ideas.

I'm leaning toward "mute girl" being Keiko, since she's the one who seems to be in control during her bouts of absurd violence. I recall her throwing a chair at Kokoro at some point, something I haven't seen as Satoru.

...

What's with this MAO inhibitor? Don't she mean an M-A-O inhibitor? :/ Everyone's pronouncing DID properly, it sounds kinda pedestrian (Utsumi is a Psychiatrist, a M.D.!), like how people call MRSA "MURSA".

Suffice to say, I now suspect YUNI is the rat-killing culprit. Assuming Hotori is being honest when she denies tampering with the cheese, and Utsumi doesn't have an alterior motive in telling Satoru (I genuinely feel she spent time analyzing the unknown chemical, although I must confess I wonder how when SPHIA seems bereft of spectrophotometres) and Kokoro is Kokoro, no one else could do it. Except the mysterious dead guy from Kokoro's route, but this kind of information isn't really common knowledge.


He's the only one with the vast amount of knowledge to do such a thing
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:21 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
I have not. Would you like me to? No promises on speed, but I'll offer to do it. I still haven't backed up the raw + patch myself, nor have I uninstalled the game proper. I do remember that people on the TLWiki team who were trying to upgrade to v.1.0 of the patch had trouble and were told to do something along the general lines of "completely uninstall the game and then reinstall it followed by patching it up," so if you didn't do that, then that could be your problem. But if you did uninstall, reinstall, attempt to patch, and hit a roadblock, then I've no clue.

Sadly, I'm getting a 500 error for the TLWiki server right now, so I can't check to see if there are any reports on this matter.
That's okay, I was just wondering if anyone else encountered the same problem. And if not, thought I'd let you know in case you do run into it.

I checked TLWiki and found someone mentioned the same error for v1.0. First under technical issues: "Cannot install patch at all. Does not detect installation (even with repeated reinstalls with admin rights) and claims I am missing an afs file." The solution involves a manual patch, which I'm not going to bother with. At least one version works without hassle, and that's good enough for me.

Now that you mention Yuni's obliviousness to Keiko/Hotori's personality changes... (Not for Dopple)

Spoiler: show
Why is this? Granted, even in 2011 Yuni is/was an odd child who seems eager to make friends with anyone. But how come he never differentiated between the Keiko and Hotori personalities like he did with Satoru and "Kokoro"? I assume if he was informed of Satoru's "diagnosis" of DID, he was also aware of Keiko's condition and attributed changes in behavior to that. But that still begs the question: Why did he consistently treat all of Keiko's personas the same, but Satoru and Kokoro as two different entities?

I guess the impression that Satoru is pretending to be a (dead) woman Yuni liked would contribute significiantly to his aversion. Still, why isn't he the least bit suspicious of Hotori's fluctuations? Especially when you factor in the Beta personality. You brought up how the cabin residents never commented on any bizarre actions Kokoro may have performed when possessed by Alpha. Wouldn't Yuni have found it odd if his playmate all of a sudden started acting like an infant?

Then there's "Jack". I don't recall if Yuni was ever witness to any of her violent outbursts or tendencies (or her seductive side, for that matter? =x). But if Utsumi really cared about an innocent, defenseless child who just happened into her care, don't you think she'd at least warn him that, "O btw your new friend once killed a bunch of people. Be careful, or she may murder you in your sleep"? I can only imagine she may have been using Yuni as a distraction to lure Keiko into a false sense of security... Which is pretty cruel and diabolical. So much for her warm mother image. ;.;
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:25 PM   #179
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I'm using v.1.1 by the way. I probably should have mentioned that earlier.

My problem with the game had nothing to do with the patch.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:42 PM   #180
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Averse. The word is averse. As in, having an aversion to something.

Regarding the MAOI: I already bitched about this on the TLWiki. I was not able to convince them to my way of thinking, despite telling them I was a medical student. So unfortunately, it stayed put. Anyway, in Japanese they really do call it a "Mao" (like Mao Zedong) "inhibitor" because they borrowed the term MAO from English and just read it as "Mao" instead of as "Emu Ei Oo" (M A O).

Regarding MRSA: it isn't pedestrian. People call MRSA "mursa" in medical school and in the hospital. Not a few people: pretty much everybody. You sound pretentious if you say Em Ess Are Ei. If you think it's pedestrian, consider FUBAR, NASA, and LASER. Most acronyms are read as words, whether the absence of key vowels allows them to be read that way easily or not.

Lil Blue, as for what you asked me ... yeah, I dunno. All good points you raise. Chalk it up to imperfect writing?
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:51 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Regarding MRSA: it isn't pedestrian. People call MRSA "mursa" in medical school and in the hospital. Not a few people: pretty much everybody. You sound pretentious if you say Em Ess Are Ei. If you think it's pedestrian, consider FUBAR, NASA, and LASER. Most acronyms are read as words, whether the absence of key vowels allows them to be read that way easily or not.
It might be a locale difference, then. I've only heard "MURSA" when spoken on the news here. Then again, I can't recall a single instance of having heard a M.D. say it, only CLS, DVMs and Ph.D's.

...

Also, I've gotten to the point where Satoru looked at the moon. I think I speculated about this earlier...

Spoiler: show
That the region of the cabin had somehow shifted into the future? The mysterious ocean might suggest the cabin is somewhere on Aosagi Island at that point, rather than Mount Akakura - it's not like Satoru could step outside SPHIA and check the borders of the island.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:54 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Averse. The word is averse. As in, having an aversion to something.
Is that directed at me? I know I have a habit of butchering vocabulary and grammar sometimes to suit my personal taste, but I at least used the correct part of speech, right? Or are you trying to say something else?

To keep this post on topic, bingo @ Dopple.
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Old 01-15-2011, 05:56 PM   #183
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Actually, I made that mistake.

I also called Satoru "Takeru". :X

Freudian slip?

...

Satoru's brought up the fixed transfer time of 33 minutes, that's a multiple of 11. I don't know how that's relevant if at all, but it's interesting to note, at least.

Ah, I've got an idea.

Spoiler: show
Since it's clear that Yuni from 2011 found his way to 2012, perhaps the Yuni of 2012 was merely waiting on Aosagi Island for the Akakura cabin to "phase" into 2012, then went on foot to the crash site and orchestrated everyone getting safetly to the cabin? Perhaps, if there's some kind of celestial phenomenon (I think of how right now in real-world 2011 there's a new constellation, it's not outrageous to think something like that wouldn't have been foreseen when this game was made) that lasts for a week or so, Yuni's deliberately trying to wait out that time to avoid a time paradox?


Conclusions:

Spoiler: show
1. Utsumi poisoned the rat. She was testing the efficacy of the MAOI and Hotori just happened to find the rat. Most likely, seeing the rat in that state must have strengthened her resolve to kill Hotori. I can't 100% confirm she tried to poison Satoru with MAOI when she gave him water, but it's a fair assumption.
2. Utsumi isn't Satoru's would-be killer. Her efforts to kill Hotori were clumsy, unlike the would-be assassin from earlier, and she didn't kill Satoru with poison or the tranquilizer. If he was really her objective, he could have very easily died in both cases, since Utsumi was willing to suicide in the end.
3. Utsumi has a puzzling desire to kill Hotori in spite of having a newborn daughter to care for. It's possible something happened to this second child.

Leaving out unknowns, this leaves Hotori, Yuni and any mystery persons as possible killers.


...

Hmm!

Spoiler: show
I've met Enomoto Naoya. I saw him as an old man in the "Satoru becomes Blick Winkel" Bad End, but for now it looks like he's conducting an experiment of sorts. I know Satoru to be a physics graduate student, so perhaps the personality transfer is a time-space experiment they're conducting?


I can see where this is going.

Spoiler: show
Enomoto just drew a 2D graph to explain the time-space phenomenon, I'm guessing he's going to say "if we align the times, movement along an axis formed is possible in space"?


OK, I don't get the coffee cup explanation. It was really cool, but the ultimate conclusion is "if I remember liking this, that won't change even if I change the chemical composition of the coffee"? How's that possible?
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:08 PM   #184
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It's crazy how many things you're nailing and how many other things you're way off base on. Overall, I'm quite impressed. You, sir, shall have bragging rights tomorrow.

Regarding the coffee: I forget the exact details, but iirc the scene is an excited science fiction foray into the world of quantum entanglement. It might help to start there if you are unfamiliar with the subject matter. For easiest reading, skip ahead to "Concept" and make haste to "Applications of entanglement" where you'll find:
Entanglement has many applications in quantum information theory. With the aid of entanglement, otherwise impossible tasks may be achieved. Among the best-known applications of entanglement are superdense coding, quantum teleportation, information exchanges through time, and the creation of a quantum computer.
The things in bold are but two of the theories you've advanced. As you can see, Enomoto's coffee story has some bearing on your theories ...

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Old 01-15-2011, 10:11 PM   #185
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Talon, I should note all of your corrections except the MAO pronunciation (since that's how it was in Japanese) were incorporated into the v.1.1 patch. So rest assured, your voice was heard.

I'm double posting because I got to the driver's license scene. I hadn't anticipated this at all! I'll going to have to gather my thoughts for a working hypothesis before I move forward from here.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:14 PM   #186
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Cool. Very glad to hear it. You have no idea how badly I wanted "MAO inhibitor" changed to "MAOI."

Check up one: I edited my post after you replied. You should read the edit.

Ahh...... so now you finally know part of the truth behind the mystery of Suzukage Hotori.
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Old 01-15-2011, 10:50 PM   #187
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Spoiler: show
Hah, if Satoru has access to the computer terminal, he should rewind back to the drowning scene to determine who tried to kill him!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
The things in bold are but two of the theories you've advanced. As you can see, Enomoto's coffee story has some bearing on your theories ...
I'm unsure of the implications, though. Kokoro and Satoru's consciousness form an EPR pair? I guess that ties in to Raide's spoiler about the game cover from long ago.

Regarding Hotori-

Spoiler: show
Perhaps Inubushi Keiko's personalities are based on people she's killed, or people known by her who've died? Hotori didn't really buy Satoru's PEP or TSE explanations, but was more willing to accept "possession" like from a dead person. Well, the real Hotori is dead, so maybe Keiko engineered the personality seen in SPHIA to emulate the dead person?

I don't know what killed the real Suzukage Hotori...maybe she was wandering outside, caught in the time-space bubble and froze to death in Akakura's storm, and has been cycling along since 11 January 2011 because of it? I can't imagine that with the calm weather over Aosagi Island she could have frozen solid like she did, so I don't think she was wandering outside of the bubble (and if I recall from Kokoro's Path, it was snowing at that point).


Alright, Satoru's starting to feed his logic.

Spoiler: show
If I recall, in an early Bad End when I didn't take the sleeping pills, Satoru died and Kokoro turned into a "perspective" that observed Satoru's dead body. Since Suzukage Hotori seems to swap personalities along with the time-space transfer, perhaps that means Inubushi Keiko's is just floating around without a body, waiting to take over her empty one?


This raises the questions...

Spoiler: show

1. Was Inubushi Keiko "dead" when Suzukage Hotori possessed her, or was Hotori's ability to take control because of Keiko's DID?
2. If Keiko was in Hotori's body when she died, did the swaps stop (i.e., Keiko died along with Hotori's body) or is Keiko floating around somewhere without a body?
3. Does Hotori have any idea what she looks like in SPHIA? What year it is? Didn't Kokoro ask her the date at some point?


Also something interesting, related to the EPR phenomenon, I guess?

Doing something in Satoru's Route has a direct influence on what you can do in Kokoro's Route. That is, I noticed the short-cuts for Kokoro's Path have been crossed out, and selecting them gives different results from what my saves indicate. When I selected the latest possible Kokoro day, it lead to a mandatory Bad End. So I would surmise, what I'm doing in Satoru's Route differently from how Kokoro recognized things in her own route is adversely affecting a second run through her route.

...violence? Man, I wish I could double check. Perhaps

Spoiler: show
Inubushi Keiko took over Satoru's body for a short while, wreaking havoc? I don't remember meek Kokoro going berserk like that...
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:43 AM   #188
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I think I'm headed for a Bad End, but it's an informative one. I've met up with an Enomoto double.

Spoiler: show

He's now talking about the apparatus, now I'm starting to think Satoru himself or the Satoru-Kokoro EPR pair might be the catalyst for the phenomenon. But I don't really understand this surreal situation.


...

Uh oh!

Spoiler: show

Satoru's voice is Enomoto's voice...and Enomoto's voice is Satoru's! Perhaps this'll explain the mysterious third personality? Why can't we extend the three-tier time-space transfer to the personalities as well?
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Old 01-16-2011, 12:58 AM   #189
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Dopple, what answers did you give to the questions in the security room?
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:03 AM   #190
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I selected the first option, then the second option, when presented with the two time issues. Unfortunately, I was prodding around with that second option, since I couldn't review that far back in the game.

I also picked the "neither" option on the culprit. I don't see how one couldn't.
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:08 AM   #191
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Funny, I thought I guessed that order of options too. Just to help speed you along to the true ending, here are the times you should pick:

Spoiler: show
6:11 pm ~ 7:17 pm
8:02 pm ~ 9:08 pm
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Old 01-16-2011, 01:32 AM   #192
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I went backed and picked those. Like I said, I was just fumbling around with the second one, not knowing what to do.

Speculation on "alpha"

Spoiler: show
Yuni? I'm thinking that the 33 minute time loss could be explained by the third person being asleep (or comatose). Satoru and Kokoro don't notice transfers while they're asleep, so if they transfer into a sleeping person it wouldn't be percieved as time loss. 2012 Yuni is also at liberty to meddle with Kokoro's wrist-watch, so he could lag her relative perception of time at leisure.

Both Kokoro and Satoru have interacted with Yuni in their time-lines, though, so maybe there's a third Yuni at the third location.


Err...scratch that.

Spoiler: show
I don't feel Yuni did all those violent things...or at least I hope he didn't...

Let's stick with "Inubushi Keiko". Keiko's body was allegedly empty by the time we got to 2012 SPHIA. So what if that body was just a left-over of the time-spacial experiment from July? The transfer of Suzukage Hotori may have been entirely accidental.


...or?!

Spoiler: show
Am I putting two and two together...or maybe one and one? The swap is using Utsumi's unborn twins! She mentioned she gave birth in the midpoint, so naturally she'd be at that location in June (they were born in August, right?). The twins being inside of her would also explain the lack of sensation between phases - their senses aren't even developed yet. Perhaps one of the kids is dead, but is kept alive by Utsumi's machinery?
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:10 AM   #193
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Ahahaha, maybe there's some legitimacy to what I'm thinking.

Spoiler: show
"The Red Room" = Utsumi's womb. We've seen this several times, and it was just reviewed in the ending cutscene. I would surmise, then, that the "Suzukage Hotori" who couldn't speak is the consciousness of one of Utsumi's unborn children. She can't speak because she hasn't learned to...but she can write? Maybe Inubushi Keiko was housed in one of those babies for a time...

In the epilogue right now. Maybe the newspaper Yuni brought was fake after all?


And

Spoiler: show
Satoru didn't leave Japan the day after the crash because he heard about Lin?


...

Okay, finished. I felt those "twiiiists!" at the end were kind of un-needed, but I was suspecting as such from my foray into that "Yukidoh Plan FAILED" bad end. Or at least, that very last one I was sort of expecting, then thinking it wouldn't happen, then suddenly thrust into it after seeing the second to last one, which surprised me because I didn't follow the logic, and it's a weird juxstaposition with the last one. It's kind of a hassle to write up an idea on what's going on, but at least it seems to me:

Spoiler: show
"Yukidoh" is a clone, or a being created to serve as the transfer point for Fuyukawa Kokoro. Traditionally, (from other anime) I've seen clones always referred to by their LAST NAME is all-caps. He might be a clone of who we were introduced to as Enomoto (which is why Mayuzumi doesn't recognize him) or have a blank personality with some Yukidoh Satoru memories. He's not amnesiac, he never had those memories to begin with. When he was pushed off the clock-tower, that allowed the "vacancy" for Kokoro to attatch to. The two became "entangled", which guaranteed swaps between those bodies, along with the bodies of Utsumi's unborn kids.

I don't agree with Satoru's assessment that "consciousness doesn't transfer". That seems to apply only to Kokoro and his own, I think it's clear Inubushi Keiko, Suzukage Hotori and the twins are shuffling about but by golly if I can make sense of it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
We never find out who that little boy is. In fact, none of the characters we play as ever become privy to that flashback. It's things like this which kind of hurt the character score in the end.
I think that's supposed to be Junichi.
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Old 01-16-2011, 09:06 AM   #194
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But you don't know that! Speculate all you like: but a game which forces you to speculate an entire scene's purpose is getting docked some points.
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Old 01-16-2011, 03:57 PM   #195
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I agree with that sentiment. A story that keeps one guessing for the sole purpose of keeping one guessing isn't very satisfying. I didn't really feel any consequences to wrapping up the final mysteries, either - Satoru and Kokoro's original motivation to understand the space-time transfer was to save the people trapped in the cabin during 2011, mission accomplished...maybe? But in the end, I wasn't nearly as irritated as LBC or BBB at the ending because it (unintentionally) played second act to Muv-Luv, and I don't think anything can top that hole I worked myself into. I should note it might be an unfair comparison since that's an artificial cliff-hanger.

Rating...8.4/10

I don't really feel comfortable with said rating because it's definitely got the influence of other games I've played working on it. I'm going to be make particular reference to Chaos;Head because 5pb is the "successor" to KID. Having played that game, and then this one, I can say that while the engine is horribly dated, KID is still superior to 5pb in every aspect of storytelling. The science concepts in Remember11 may have been twisted at times but they made some kind of sense, rather than bastardized beyond recognition (Chaos;Head argues the "Dirac Sea" is analagous to The Force). The characters are warm, error-prone yet sympathetic and grow with the player (for the most part), rather than remaining cold and distant. The plot's resolution feels spontaneous, rather than scripted out (a glaring problem with Chaos;Head, where Takumi goes through several predictable trials before his final confrontation).

I'm a bit bothered by the music. Not because it's bad, but because of my growing awareness of my own disillusionment toward background themes. While the main theme "All or None" is immediately recognizable, few other pieces in the game are. I've noticed that with all other VNs I haven't been able to even come close to 100% recall for random background themes, except with Sengoku Rance. The future criteria I'm going to set for music -

1. Do I feel the music fits the percieved atmosphere of a scene?
2. Is it recognizable, i.e. can I recall it unassisted whenever I want?

For Remember11, it's par. I can recognize the OP intro song (though I don't like it that much) and "All or None", but no other themes. I can recall a handful of themes from Ever17, plus the opening and true ending Aqua Plus. Sengoku Rance, I can recall everything.

In closing, while Remember11 isn't a 9/10+ visual novel, it's not the black sleep of KID by any means, and is still of higher quality than novels by similarly high-profile companies. I enjoyed it and its flaws/faults didn't irk me nearly as much as I feared they would. Recommended.
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Last edited by Doppleganger; 01-16-2011 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 01-18-2011, 12:10 AM   #196
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The flashback scene doesn't make any sense. Granted, the TIPS provided some info about that, but whose flashback was that?
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