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Old 05-23-2018, 03:01 PM   #4726
Talon87
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Here is a pretty typical Ubers fight by players who mostly know what they're doing. (Not sure why the one guy refused to use Sleep Talk on either his RestTalk Kyogre or his Rest??? Giratina except for that very final opportunity, but whatever.) This is not the playground for a UU & Friends mono-Water team. One UU or OU Pokémon, fine. A Cloyster here, a Ditto there. But the rest has to be fleshed out with the big bruiser legendaries who can dish a beating and take a beating. Otherwise, you're just going to take the beatings and lose.

If you really want to have fun with a monotype team, I'd strongly encourage you to reconsider clutching to Kyogre as you have been and to just hop over from Ubers to Monotype. Your team would be much happier in Monotype. Here is the Gen 7 Monotype ruleset. All you stand to lose are Kyogre, Ash-Greninja (you can keap Protean Greninja instead), and Damp Rock.

Rain is a very strong theme team, so much so that it has been a major presence in both OU and VGC over the last few generations.
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Old 05-23-2018, 03:07 PM   #4727
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I'm very rusty and bad at randbats but It's a team effort (ft. castform).
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:02 PM   #4728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Goalposts! I gave you Ash-Greninja to prove my point! You didn't say "Gyarados is only as good as Ash-Greninja": you said he's only as good as G-R-E-N-I-N-J-A! If you're going to cheat and automatically launch yourself into Ash-Greninja, then why don't I go ahead and also cheat by exactly one turn and give myself a free DD?
That wasn't goalposts, that was me treating an orange like a tangerine and creating miscommunication. I only run Ash-Greninja because, in the rain, I can make it work; Protean cannot be used in Ubers at all aside from a subpar suicide lead. When I did the calculation I was looking at Ash-Greninja stats.

I apologize, but I was always talking about Ash-Greninja, you can see from the replays I posted that's what I've been running and thinking about.

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Originally Posted by Ironthunder View Post
Just because there shouldn't be a problem doesn't mean there isn't a problem. There's quite clearly a problem. And I think a chunk of it stems back to the unavoidable truth of 'Monowater rain teams in Ubers aren't common for a reason'.
We don't know if there's a problem yet because I'm not skilled enough to tell. First, you need a good team and then you need to know how to use it. Only then can you really conclude "this team is totally unviable" or "this team has a niche". A bad player with a good team can still sack wins and a good player can't win with a bad one. Pokemon is a numbers came so there are times where mathematically, it's impossible no matter how skilled you are.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like a whiny brat here; I'm in Ubers because it's fun and I want to use Kyogre. I'm still stubborn when it comes to team building so maybe the addition of something like Toxapex would help out immensely.

Monowater might not be the problem so much as rain. It also lead me to realize a very sad thing just now:

252+ SpA Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Mewtwo-Mega-Y in Rain: 286-337 (80.5 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible damage amounts: (286, 289, 292, 297, 300, 303, 306, 310, 313, 316, 319, 324, 327, 330, 333, 337)

This is with Choice Scarf, which is necessary to outspeed Mewtwo-Y. I fall just short of the KO either way. Incidentally, Hydro Pump here does more damage than Dark Pulse, so the only reason to use it would be for the flinch chance.
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Old Yesterday, 12:33 AM   #4729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
We don't know if there's a problem yet because I'm not skilled enough to tell.
https://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-04/gen7ubers-1760.txt

This is a usage table of all the Pokémon used in Ubers by players with an Elo score of 1760 or greater (and no one else! ). Our first Water type, Primal Kyogre, comes in at 10th place. Our second Water type, Arceus-Water (when did this become a thing!?), comes in at 18th place. Normal Kyogre comes in at 39th place. Cloyster's in 41st. Toxapex next at 54th. Palkia right behind at 55th. Mega Slowbro in at 68th. Greninja at 69th. Ordinary Slowbro at 84th. Mega Gyarados at 86th. Tapu Fini at 92nd. Ash-Greninja at 98th. Rotom-Wash at 113th. Tentacruel at 122nd. Finally, your boy Mega Swampert in at 127th place.

This table suggests that a water-themed duo core is possible at a high level of play between Kyogre and Arceus-Water, but that the duo requires support from outside the Water type from the other four teammates.
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Old Yesterday, 12:59 AM   #4730
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The Arceus-Water I run isn't used as a Primal Groudon check, but as a pseudo-Extreme Killer physical attacker since without Ash-Greninja's Water Shuriken, I get annoyed by Pokemon with Focus Sashes like the Deoxys forms and some leads. Arceus has the bulk to set up without the OHKO and also do something when Blissey/Chansey/Aegislash are dancing around.

Kyogre is essential for Mega Swampert because Primal Kyogre isn't nearly as team friendly as Primal Groudon is: it can't set up hazards and like with Pdon its heavy weather lifts when it switches out. I got a little obsessed with swift swimmers because of Swampert but I really only need Swampert.

Ash-Greninja is excellent as a special attacker because with scarf it will even outspeed +2 Xerneas, losing only to the Z-Geomancy variant. Without specs or life orb, it doesn't have a lot of power so the rain is again essential, allowing the speedier Ash-Greninja to do as much damage as its OU specs counterpart.

Rain is only essential for these three though, which was my mistake initially: running a bunch of swift swimmers, two rain setters + filler. I now have a special wall in Quagsire, and a bulky physical attacker in Arceus-Water.
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Old Yesterday, 04:29 PM   #4731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Ubers isn't unfriendly to setup strategies. Ubers is setup strategies.
I took this advice and I'm having a lot more consistent "success" now. Or at least, I'm not getting habitually swept by Arceus/Xerneas/Marshadow anymore, even if I still lose in the end. I feel like the team is coming together cohesively so now it's developing the prediction and knowledge of the opponent.

This one is a good example. My Arceus is a bit slower than Extreme Killer so I can do some damage to Bulk Up Marshadow: that's probably why I survived the Extreme Killer's boosted hit. But I should have switched out to Rotom sooner for the Rocky Helmet damage, or use Waterium Z instead of Splash Plate if I know I can survive a hit (I'm still debating this). Pulling Extreme Killer was a misplay. I intentionally used Waterfall to see if heavy rain boosted water attacks further (it doesn't), two EQs from Mega Swampert will normally take out Mega Kyogre.

But a lot of games are going like this: way closer than sweep sweep sweep, which is what I was expecting. So yeah thanks for the advice Talon, it's definitely helped out.
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