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Old 12-13-2012, 03:38 AM   #1
Talon87
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Man of Steel

BORKED
direct YouTube link

Zack Snyder (Watchmen) and Christopher Nolan (rebooted Batman films). If they can't make a good Superman movie, perhaps it's a sign that no one can. Good luck, gentlemen.

Anyone else hear that opening note and think it sounds just like the opening to Batman: the Animated Series?

lol @ reboot Jonathan Kent. "... maybe."

I like the bit with Martha trying to help a young Clark to ignore all of the sounds his ears can pick up lest they drive him mad. One commenter noted that Superman would be the ultimate special needs child irl, and I think this is one good way of showing that.

Hopefully we don't spend too much time on his childhood in Smallville. The trailer seems promising in that regard.

The beard dealie seems to be calling back Batman Begins's spirit. Never seen a scruffy Superman before. Does he even have facial hair growth in the comics, I wonder?

Last edited by Talon87; 12-13-2012 at 02:03 PM. Reason: edited in direct YouTube link for iPhone users & similar
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Old 12-13-2012, 12:24 PM   #2
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Dammit Talon stop creating threads I want to create ;;

Saw the trailer yesterday and it looks pretty awesome. When I first heard of a Supes reboot I was expecting it to continue on from Smallville (which I've not got around to seeing), so it's interesting to see that it isn't. Henry Caville's pretty awesome.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:45 PM   #3
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Superman shaved with his laser eye beams. He rarely has facial hair. They usually make him look older by adding wrinkles and grey hair.

I am getting a BORKED on the youtube vid.
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:11 PM   #4
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Superman shaved with his laser eye beams. He rarely has facial hair. They usually make him look older by adding wrinkles and grey hair.
Yeah, I think I've seen black-and-gray haired Superman before, but that's like serious age, not "I didn't shave for several months and now have a beard." I still don't think I've ever seen Superman with facial hair before. Not a moustache, not a goatee, not a Santa Claus beard, nothing. This is the first, and I suppose the combination of "first film in a reboot" + "Christopher Nolan" + "DC superhero" just makes it impossible for me to not sense the similarities between the bearded Kal-El here and the bearded Bruce Wayne at the start of Batman Begins.

If anything, it interests me to know how he spent those months/years away from civilization and why. The "why" appears to possibly be hinted at in the trailer -- retreating to the Fortress of Solitude because fuck this shit getoutofmyheadcharles -- but I'll be interested to hear/see the answer from Chris Nolan's own script.

Zak Snyder: And what am I? Grape jelly?

I wonder what it was like for both men to work with the other. Hopefully it was fun and productive, not full of creative differences-driven friction. If the movie does end up being bad, that would probably be my leading theory as to why: "too many cooks in the kitchen spoiled the broth." 'Cause Snyder's Watchmen? Trčs magnifique. And Nolan's Batman reboot? Arguably the best superhero film franchise of all time. So we know both men have it in them to direct a great comic book movie and to guide a team of writers down the path towards greatness. So if this movie ends up feeling like a mishmash of ideas and conflicting directions, I think we'll know why and it'll be rather unfortunate since either man alone would've probably made a Grade-A film.

That stated, I'm actually optimistic that this will work. I think they'll cover each other's few weaknesses nicely and turn out a product that is just spectacular. Which is something Superman fans have been hungering for now for over 30 years.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:31 PM   #5
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The beard was a bit jarring, I'll admit. Though I quickly glossed over it in fervor over how this new guy doesn't look like Superman. Then, toward the end of the trailer, he does. But then Superman holds hands with Jennifer Anniston. Wow.

It's hard to get worked up over this since it's an origin story, but it looks very different from the other ones I'm familiar with.

Is this the film that's meant to set-up Justice League?
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:49 PM   #6
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Is this the film that's meant to set-up Justice League?
Seems like it considering Christopher Nolan is involved.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:52 PM   #7
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Is this the film that's meant to set-up Justice League?
I think we all know the answer to that question!

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Old 12-14-2012, 12:16 AM   #8
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I thought it was definitely confirmed to be the start of the DC Cinematic Universe, similar to what Marvel has going on now?

That said, I'm iffy on the first part of the music which is too Enya-y for the superhero context, and I'm hoping the movie is great.

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Old 12-14-2012, 03:12 AM   #9
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Is this the film that's meant to set-up Justice League?
If they do they better remake Green Lanturn.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:00 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia's Justice League in other media page
During an interview with the New York Post in November 2012, Man of Steel director Zack Snyder stated, “I don’t know how ‘Justice League’ is going to be handled. Honestly, I don’t. But ‘The Man of Steel’ exists, and Superman is in it. I don’t know how you’d move forward without acknowledging that,” and claimed that Warner Bros. expects him to "keep them on course" as regards to a potential cinematic universe.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:50 PM   #11
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If they do they better remake Green Lanturn.
Was that film really that bad? I mean it wasn't excellent, but man I am sick of origin stories and reboots of origin stories. Like the freaking Hulk thing. And we got it with Spiderman too!

I think the Batman ones were different. Those were legitimately different takes on Batman. The Hulk situation was, "we did that movie badly, so let's try it again in the same way but not screw up". Spiderman too. Heck, the next Fantastic Four will follow the mould.

Warner or Disney or whatever should do a real origin story. Like, the birth of the universe. Or the birds and the bees. Make it 3D with CGI and smell-o-vision (theatre employees spraying smells from bottles).

I'd like to smell the birth of the universe.
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:59 PM   #12
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I thought they remade Spiderman because in order to keep the rights for Spiderman, Sony has to release a Spiderman movie every 5 years or so or something.

Yes, Green Lantern was really that bad.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:10 PM   #13
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You do realize that Batman Forever and Batman & Robin were also horrible movies, so they needed to reboot it for Batman Begins. Otherwise, they probably would have just made a 5th Batman movie following that shit.

Also, Prometheus is sort of an origin of all life on Earth movie. Sorta.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:11 PM   #14
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The weird thing about those Batman movies, because the actor turnover was so frequent, I never really recognized them as officially in any sort of canon.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:33 PM   #15
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:31 PM   #16
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Was that film really that bad? I mean it wasn't excellent, but man I am sick of origin stories and reboots of origin stories. Like the freaking Hulk thing. And we got it with Spiderman too!

The Hulk situation was, "we did that movie badly, so let's try it again in the same way but not screw up".
1) Yes, yes it was.
2) For many reasons, I wanted JOHN STEWART not the white guy.
3) You did bring an interesting point about Hulk, Hulk in the avenger's was the best Hulk ever made, and there wasn't any origin story where that actor played in; now this brings the question, did they just add Hulk's new actor into the avenger's because they could like they did with Black Widow and Hawkeye or because they were too tired of trying to make a decent Hulk and the audience has gotten the point that the guy turns big and green when mad?

I know I might of gotten off topic with point 3; Hawk Woman, Green Martian, Flash and Green Lantern can all coming into a Justice League Movie the way Black Widow, Hawkeye, & Hulk did in the Avenger's and I'd have no issue with it what so ever with even cameo's in the bigger hero's movies. I can however see the franchise make them in the future but probably only depends on how the company see's the audience's reaction. Wonder Women has enough strength to carry a movie on its own.
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Old 12-15-2012, 05:24 AM   #17
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3) You did bring an interesting point about Hulk, Hulk in the avenger's was the best Hulk ever made, and there wasn't any origin story where that actor played in; now this brings the question, did they just add Hulk's new actor into the avenger's because they could like they did with Black Widow and Hawkeye or because they were too tired of trying to make a decent Hulk and the audience has gotten the point that the guy turns big and green when mad?
No, it's because negotiations with Edward Norton broke down.
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Old 12-15-2012, 06:40 AM   #18
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I kinda liked Green Lanturn, it just got rushed to hell during the end.

Also the deal with the Hulk is that the first Hulk film was terrible so they did a new one in a different continuity. But The Incredible Hulk wasn't an origin story (unless you count the montage in the opening credits) as it starts with Banner already 'being' the Hulk. So it's in a different continuity (which carries to The Avengers) but not an origin story.

And is much better.
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Old 12-15-2012, 02:13 PM   #19
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No, it's because negotiations with Edward Norton broke down.
I heard they didn't even ask him for the Avengers. They like his acting, they didn't like how much control he wanted in the Incredible Hulk movie.
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Old 04-17-2013, 12:11 PM   #20
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Trailer from April 16, 2013

Good trailer. I do like several of the changes they appear to have made, like:

Spoiler: show
1. It looks like, after departing Smallville, Clark goes off into the world and just helps anybody he comes across rather than making a beeline for Metropolis and getting a job with the Daily Planet. This ties into ...

2. Clark's desire, from a young age, to be someone who uses his powers to help people. This contrasts with comic book Clark's decision to lead an incognito life as a journalist with the Daily Planet, something which would seem to indicate more a man who wants to fit in with everybody else, who perhaps wishes he were normal. 2013 Clark doesn't seem like he'll have that property.

3. How the "S" emblazoned on Clark's costume is now said not to be intended as the first letter of his alias but is instead a symbol from his home world which represents hope. That's pretty cool, and a great way to refit what was otherwise such a silly 1930s comic book superheroes aspect of his costume.

But there are some changes I'm a little more ambivalent about, like ...

Spoiler: show
1. Jor El sends Kal El to Earth with the expectation that his son would be as a god there? If this happened in the comics, then whatever. It's just that I always thought Jor El fired Clark's pod into space with no expectations that Clark would have superpowers there that the other inhabitants would not.

2. Lois Lane appears to meet Clark when she's interrogating him in a military compound's jail. What? A, what is Superman even doing there, restrained by puny humans? B, what is Lois, a civilian reporter, doing there? And C, this is how she meets Clark Kent!? Not as a man but as a demigod?

I'm not terribly thrilled by the cliche summer blockbuster content (too many explosions, for starters), but if the villains are who they appear to be (General Zod and Faora), then this could be an excellent reboot in the very capable hands of Christopher Nolan and Zak Snyder. So far, Man of Steel has pulled ahead of the pack and is my most anticipated film of the summer. Give us a reason to care about Superman, guys. Lord knows we all want to.
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Old 04-17-2013, 02:15 PM   #21
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Spoiler Part 1-3:
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That is I believe the interpretation since like the 90s. In fact, in the Superman Animated Series, all the newspapers called him a mystery hero while the Daily Planet called him Superman after Lois randomly said it in front of Perry White and ran with it. Not sure if that's how it was back in the original issue of Action Comics #1. Although, in the original issue of Action Comics #1, Superman was also a douchebag.


2-1:
Spoiler: show
Again, not sure about original, but some interpretations of it has had Jor El know such a thing would happen.


2-2:
Spoiler: show
Most likely, he turned himself in after being seen and then wanting to explain himself through a civilian reporter.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:55 AM   #22
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The sad thing is that it doesn't look like it's going to be a Superman movie. It's going to be another gritty story with good action and a vaguely realistic looking costume. So it looks like it will be a good film. But it's a shame that the old style of Superman movies is no longer viable.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:28 AM   #23
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I'm not yet convinced that a Superman film in the vein of the Dark Knight trilogy will work. They made a point of not using any of Batman's superpowered enemies in the trilogy, which was a good move for keeping the films focus. Having Dr Manhattan in Watchmen worked because the profound effect the existence of someone like that would have was such a major focus of the story (moreso in the graphic novel).
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:36 AM   #24
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The sad thing is that it doesn't look like it's going to be a Superman movie. It's going to be another gritty story with good action and a vaguely realistic looking costume. So it looks like it will be a good film. But it's a shame that the old style of Superman movies is no longer viable.
Superman himself simply isn't a hero modern people care for. Doppel and I have had this discussion a couple of times over the years where we've noted how the laypublic's desire for gritty realism seems to ebb and flow inversely with its desire for happy fantasy. Like an honest-to-god pendulum, it seems that what happens is something like this:
  • say we arbitrarily start off at a neutral point where people aren't really disaffected by either type of story, and the direction of our momentum is towards happily-ever-after stories. In other words, y=sin(x) when x = 0 has the consequence of y = 0, and we are moving along the x-axis in the positive direction.
  • publishers and studios put out some happy stories with heroes who end up defying the odds. The people like this. They get absorbed in these fantasy worlds where things turn out better than they do IRL.
  • so the publishers and studios put out more.
  • and more.
  • and more.
  • until finally we come to the point where the market is both saturated with and has hit its apex for human accomplishment. y=sin(x) where x = pi/2 and so y = 1.
    • Superheroes are boring now, a dime a dozen.
    • Power creep, in its pitiful way of trying to keep readers and viewers engaged, has made gods out of our heroes.
    • And gods are, frankly, boring. There's a reason that the human-like Greek gods capture people's attention more than the more perfect gods of other mythologies; and there's a reason why even within Greek mythology the most celebrated tales are those dealing with the demigods or mortals, like Hercules, Perseus, and Theseus, and not those dealing with the überdeities, like Cronos or Gaia, who [frankly] outside of the creation mythos don't even really get any tales.
  • So when a flawed superhero comes along, the people lap it up. They celebrate it for its realism. They applaud how "relatable" it is, relatable to their own lives. That's the problem with the old guard of superheroes, they say: they're too perfect, too unrelatable to.
  • So the publishers and studios listen.
  • And they turn out more flawed protagonists.
  • And more flawed.
  • And more flawed.
  • Until finally we're reading stories about everyday Joes.
  • And when we've hit this rock bottom, where y=sin(x) where x = 3pi/2 and thus y = -1 ...
  • ...somebody speaks up and says, "This is dumb. If I wanted to read about ordinary people and the terrible shit that happens to them, I'd open a newspaper. That's what fiction has become these days: a goddamn newspaper. I want adventure! I want romance! I want the hero to actually get the girl in the end! To defy all the odds! To emerge triumphant! I want a happy fantasy where everything turns out okay in the end for the heroes and everything turns out rotten for the villains! I want to be able to immerse myself in such a feel-good world, to escape from the doldrums of my dreary and miserable existence!"
  • And so we start to swing the other way once again.
The interesting thing is that different media are at different points in this sine wave: the storytelling of planet Earth is not all at the same point at once. In manga right now, we're currently on the downward, away from flawless supermen (which I'd say we climaxed with in the '90s or 2000s) and towards more relatable, human, imperfect heroes. In Hollywood, I feel like we have a very turbid scenario where, simultaneously, we have a move both towards grittier, more realistic outcomes (because people are sick and tired of the overall Happily Ever After nature of 20th century cinema) which coexists alongside an effort to maintain Happily Ever Afters (for the quarter or half or whatever of the planet who are already sick and tired of the move towards realism which began to take hold in Hollywood in the '90s). And if anime is going towards realism, and if Hollywood is conflicted and doing both, I feel like English-language literature is making the move back towards fantasy settings and Happily Ever Afters. After a century-long glut of Great Gatsbies, Grapes of Wrath, and Sound and the Furies, we see a landscape that is utterly devoid of what most English instructors would probably label "a contemporary classic" that bears any real similarity to these works AND (and this "and" is important) has broad appeal to the masses. People actually read The Great Gatsby. People actually read The Grapes of Wrath. No one is reading whatever today's poet laureates turn out. People are instead turning to the fantasy and science-fiction tales of the 20th century which had previously been relegated to the bookshelves of social rejects and turning them into Academy Award-winning projects. We live in a world right now where The Lord of the Rings is one of the most widely-praised projects of the 20th century and where people are gobbling up contemporary fantasy classics like Harry Potter or George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire books.

You don't have to agree with this hypothetical observation -- I'm not sure whether either Doppel or I 100% buy into it ourselves -- but it is something we've noticed, and I *do* think there is something to be said for a sinusoidal nature of popularity of protagonists in pulp fiction, where we cycle between the more realistic ones in a sea of supermen getting the praise and the more super ones in a sea of ordinary folk getting the praise.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:55 AM   #25
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In the world of comic books, I think that this hypothesis is best illustrated by the relative popularities of Superman and Spider-Man.

In the 1940s or 50s, a hero like Superman was #1 while a hero like Spider-Man (had he existed at the time) would have been a dime a dozen lame-o Hero of the Week type. The 1930s, '40s, and '50s were just filled with superheroes vying for young boys' attention, each more spectacular than the last, and above all the rest -- above the Flash, above the Green Lantern, above Aquaman, at the top of the pack -- was Superman. (Kinda strange, really, considering all that the Green Lantern could do. I'll just have to chalk that one up to "Green Lantern is what you get if you combine the omnipotence of Superman with the detective nature of Batman ... and thus the two more polar figures got more of their target audiences and left Lantern, their mathematical average, with table scraps" or something.)

By the 1960s, the American public is starting to change -- the Kennedy assassination, the MLK Jr. assassination, the Vietnam War, stuff -- and we start to see the emergence of Marvel's heavyweights. Spider-Man was born in the 1960s, and so too were the X-Men. These heroes were the new kids on the block and, throughout most of the 1960s and '70s, they would have to try and muscle their way past the juggernauts that were Superman and Batman, but they weren't really able to do so very well. Both Spider-Man and X-Men got low-budget Saturday morning cartoons in the '70s, but Superman meanwhile got three major motion pictures. In the 1980s, Tim Burton picked up Batman and that hero started to get films, but the X-Men and Spider-Man were still left eating dust.

It was around this time -- the late 1980s -- that I would say y=sin(pi) = 0, i.e. we'd returned to equilibrium, and the public's appetite's momentum was taking them towards more flawed or realistic superheroes. The stage was set for the X-Men cartoon of the 1990s, a huge success, which was followed up by the also-popular Spider-Man cartoon. And before either of these two, let's not forget, was the reconstruction of Batman known as Batman: the Animated Series that built upon the Dark Knight re-imagining of the late 1980s. Kids loved Batman: the Animated Series. When The Adventures of Superman came out a few years later, kids weren't as excited. The animation was less appealing, sure; but more importantly, the plot and characters were far less interesting to watch. Kids could relate to Dark Knight Bruce Wayne, Dark Knight Alfred, Dark Knight Robin, or even Dark Knight Joker better than they could relate to the senselessly mean (and otherwise fairly normal) business mogul Lex Luthor or the cardboard cutouts who worked at the Daily Planet. Even Clark himself just wasn't a very compelling protagonist. "I'm a nice guy. I save people. I can't ever lose. " Nuh uh. Not doin' it. Even if Batman never wound up dying (for real) in Batman: the Animated Series, the cartoon both tantalized and terrorized children with the possibility of it. They gave us a superhero who they were always reminding us was only one rocket grenade or acid vat away from certain death. He was someone who could die ... but simply didn't, thanks to his intense physical training and his remarkable acumen. Superman was the opposite: a guy who wasn't necessarily very bright, and who didn't have to work hard at being powerful, ... and who never, ever, ever could die. Sure, there was kryyyyyyyyyyptonite , but that weakness of his became such a tired plot device that it turned kids off. Batman had millions of ways he could die -- rabid guard dogs, electric fence, exploding mansion, the list goes on and on -- but with Supes, it was always the same tired plot device. A kryptonite suit of armor! A kryptonite sword! A kryptonite robo-warrior! Kryptonite, kryptonite, kryptonite! The children of the 1990s cynically rejected what the children of the 1940s and '50s had been only too able to accept.

Finally, we come to the end of the '90s and to the 2000s. Specifically, our focus turns to the cinemas, to Hollywood. Superman has been retired since its last (awful) product in the 1980s. Batman was retired a few years back owing to the terribad Batman and Robin. "But we want to make a superhero film! " says Hollywood. So who or what do they turn to? Why, the X-Men, of course. A popular kids cartoon of the 1990s ... we can cash in on that popularity at least, right? Right? So they do. And it works. It works wonderfully for them. Bryan Singer's X-Men is, by the end of its opening weekend, already celebrated as the greatest superhero film of all time. So what do they do next? Throw tons of money at Spider-Man, hoping it'll stick. And ohhhhhhhhhhhh does it stick! Spider-Man dethrones X-Men overnight and becomes the highest grossing film in American history for opening-day ticket sales ($39 million on opening day alone). And what does the public have to say about Spider-Man? "Thank God for a realistic superhero." "Thank God for a superhero film that doesn't insult its audience's intelligence." It's kind of funny, really, when you look back on it. Sam Raimi's Spider-Man film is considered by many to be just as cheesy as the Burton-era Batman films. But the public was so disaffected by the likes of Batman and Robin that the X-Men and Spider-Man films were like breaths of fresh air.

So then DC and Marvel experiment a bit. And they both dare to try and bring back classic superheroes who've fallen out of popularity while maintaining their image (e.g. Superman, the Incredible Hulk) while at the same time they also try to adapt some other superheroes into this new world order of grittier, more realistic superhero fare (e.g. Batman, Iron Man). I don't think I need to remind you which films tanked and which ones soared.

So now here we are in 2013. Fans like me feel that even The Avengers is too campy and would like to see more and more Christopher Nolan-era Batman-esque films, but there are people on the other side of the fence whose voices are starting to get a little louder. "What ever happened to the old way? What ever happened to superheroes who were ... well, y'know, super? I don't want a smarmy penthouse playboy in a suit of steel. And I don't want an emo penthouse playboy who spends most of his time in a cave filled with bats! I want a happy, successful, all-around do-gooder who has amazing powers and wins, wins, wins!" So it'll be interesting to see if the public is already tired of the swing towards realism and is ready to go back to the ways of the 1970s Superman films or whether, as I believe, we're still not even at the apex yet of our journey towards gritty and realistic superhero films.
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