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Old 06-12-2016, 01:26 PM   #1576
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In other news: Fuck America and it's inability to pass any gun control laws. This is truly the most important issue overall to me, but after Obama trying his entire 8 years to fix this, I am entirely convinced that any worthwhile gun legislation is impossible for the President to pass, much less influence. Hence me not caring TOO much how the President feels about guns.
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Old 06-12-2016, 03:43 PM   #1577
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I don't know Jeri... if it were me I would rather post long rants about how terrible Hillary is instead of voting for her. Sure, a homophobic misogynistic racist would end up President, but I'd feel good about myself.
i like this post

reminding everyone that i am currently 16 and unable to vote, but the next 4 years of my life are going to be pretty important and abstaining from voting or writing in a third party candidate means you could screw me over and other people in my age range.

i know that you're sick of the system we're in but i can't afford a revolution. vote for the lesser of two evils. vote in local areas and get candidates you care about in smaller spaces, and work your way up. it'll take a while but at least there won't be a generation crippled by a selfish decision

please vote
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:17 PM   #1578
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Congress needs to stand the fuck up to the NRA and tell them that the safety of the people is more important than the dicksucking money they receive from the gun lobby.
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:22 PM   #1579
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i like this post

reminding everyone that i am currently 16 and unable to vote, but the next 4 years of my life are going to be pretty important and abstaining from voting or writing in a third party candidate means you could screw me over and other people in my age range.

i know that you're sick of the system we're in but i can't afford a revolution. vote for the lesser of two evils. vote in local areas and get candidates you care about in smaller spaces, and work your way up. it'll take a while but at least there won't be a generation crippled by a selfish decision

please vote
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:39 PM   #1580
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there were 14.9 million students in high school last year, that number is probably a little bit bigger now bc population growth

i'm speaking for them too
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:50 PM   #1581
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The NRA is the voice of the people, like it or not, and is actually a fairly vocal proponent of rational gun control measures. Or what it sees as rational, anyway.

Gun violence has been steadily decreasing over time, as well. At current, 61% of all gun-related deaths are suicides. Honestly, I could full-stop right here and win the argument. Mental health is far more important than gun control. It's not even that "only sickos commit mass shootings," it's that we have a massive mental health problem in our country and that needs to take priority over fears for the safety of your local preschool.

68% of all firearm homicides are caused by handguns. (9% are caused by rifles and shotguns).

BUT WHAT ABOUT ASSAULT WEAPONS AND MASS SHOOTINGS, you ask. Weeeell mass shootings have been steadily decreasing too. And at least 80% of all mass shooters had some kind of medical issue, diagnosed or otherwise (for example, one guy had a tumor on his amygdala, the part of the brain responsible for feelings of anger and aggression). I'd personally put that figure at 100% but who even knows, man?

Assault weapons do not exist. The class of weapon is actually "Assault rifle." It is a class of gun that shoots bullets as long as the trigger is depressed. You know it better as a "machine gun," and it is banned for sale to civilians in the US.

The "assault weapons" that the likes of Clinton are pushing to ban are called "semi-automatic" and they shoot one bullet every time the trigger is depressed just like any other gun. They were previously banned in the US, but the ban expired in 2004 (with 0 effect on gun crime - and in fact, it continued to decrease steadily). "Assault weapons" were used in 2% of all gun crime at the time of banning. They also aren't very useful for mass shootings and not having them will not deter mass shooters from killing shitloads of people.

SO HOW THE FUCK DO WE STOP MASS SHOOTINGS? By providing expanded mental health care services to everyone. It's time to face the truth: In America at least, guns aren't the problem, people are the problem.

We have enough gun control. We don't have enough mental health care.

EDIT: This may come across as me attacking you! it is not. I am simply saying that further gun control demonstrably has no meaningful impact on gun crime. We've done all we can on that side by forcing gun buyers to take evaluations and undergo background checks. And it's working! We now need to address the reasons that gun crime exists, and spoiler alert: it's not "because guns exist."
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Old 06-12-2016, 04:58 PM   #1582
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Okay.

The dude in the Orlando shootings had an AR-15 rifle. Name one good reason why a normal civilian needs one of those. I can't think of one. "Self-defense" can be taken care of with a weapon that isn't used by the military for Christ sake

EDIT:

Also, how about this. The shooter legally bought two guns in the past week EVEN THOUGH THE FBI HAD INVESTIGATED HIM TWICE. So when you say that we don't need more gun control, I disagree. How about we address the fact that someone who has been investigated by the FBI because of possible ties with terrorist groups can buy a gun?
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:27 PM   #1583
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With mass shootings being a thing I feel that the cases where people die because their killer had a gun and they didn't is an OK albeit unfortunate price to pay to reduce the likelihood of larger tragedies.
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:45 PM   #1584
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Gun control in America is not sufficient, and it will not be sufficient until the second amendment is removed from the constitution.

This has gotten to the point of being inexcusable in a first-world country.
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:51 PM   #1585
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Shuckle, you can cough up meaningless statistics all day and night. I would wager I'm the only person on this forum who has actually lived with the consequences of gun violence. A student got shot a block from my school not three months ago. My family lives just outside of Chicago, where a dozen people are shot and killed everyday. Just because gun violence is trending slightly downward doesn't mean it's okay to ignore gun violence. Over ten thousand people die yearly from gun violence. If 60% of that is suicide due to mental illness, that means 4,000 people a year are having their lives taken against their will, more often than not by people who aren't mentally ill.

Mental illness is an issue, but gun control would do infinitely more to prevent homicides by guns.

In my view, we need something like what Japan has: Almost all guns are illegal, legal ones are strictly policed and owners are regularly tested, and even so much as holding an illegal firearm can get you up to 10 years in prison.

This is why Japan has as few as 2 gun deaths per year and we have a mass shooting every fucking day.
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Old 06-12-2016, 06:16 PM   #1586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuckle View Post
Assault weapons do not exist. The class of weapon is actually "Assault rifle." It is a class of gun that shoots bullets as long as the trigger is depressed. You know it better as a "machine gun," and it is banned for sale to civilians in the US.

The "assault weapons" that the likes of Clinton are pushing to ban are called "semi-automatic" and they shoot one bullet every time the trigger is depressed just like any other gun. They were previously banned in the US, but the ban expired in 2004 (with 0 effect on gun crime - and in fact, it continued to decrease steadily). "Assault weapons" were used in 2% of all gun crime at the time of banning. They also aren't very useful for mass shootings and not having them will not deter mass shooters from killing shitloads of people.
Just as a note...

There is audio and video recording of the shooting in Orlando. He started shooting with his AR-15 and I don't know if he ever switched to another kind of gun.

Not useful for mass shootings? My ass.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:37 PM   #1587
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You get to use mental illness as an argument when you show me what mental illness mass murder is a symptom of.
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Old 06-12-2016, 07:57 PM   #1588
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In my view, we need something like what Japan has: Almost all guns are illegal, legal ones are strictly policed and owners are regularly tested, and even so much as holding an illegal firearm can get you up to 10 years in prison.

This is why Japan has as few as 2 gun deaths per year and we have a mass shooting every fucking day.
There are cultural and historical reasons for why Japan wound up where it is today with respect to gun ownership, reasons which do not apply to America. Lazy link dump:Can't locate the Wikipedia article which would detail Macarthur's disarmament of the people, although passing references are made in several of the links provided. Find that article and you can add it to the list and call it a day.

Haven't read the entire essay, but this essay appears to be well-researched and echoes a lot of my own observations on how Japan is culturally poised to be the way that it is in a fashion that America simply isn't. If nothing else, scroll down to the bottom of the essay where he starts his conclusion section. Read the conclusion, even if only skimming it.
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:03 PM   #1589
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You get to use mental illness as an argument when you show me what mental illness mass murder is a symptom of.
Serial Killers and Antisocial Personality Disorder are often found in tandem, particularly with notorious ones.
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:05 PM   #1590
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There are cultural and historical reasons for why Japan wound up where it is today with respect to gun ownership, reasons which do not apply to America. Lazy link dump:Can't locate the Wikipedia article which would detail Macarthur's disarmament of the people, although passing references are made in several of the links provided. Find that article and you can add it to the list and call it a day.

Haven't read the entire essay, but this essay appears to be well-researched and echoes a lot of my own observations on how Japan is culturally poised to be the way that it is in a fashion that America simply isn't. If nothing else, scroll down to the bottom of the essay where he starts his conclusion section. Read the conclusion, even if only skimming it.
Okay, then scratch out the word "Japan" in my post and put in "Australia" instead
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:13 AM   #1591
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Oh Australia is a good example. I think i remember them having tons of problems with gun violence before, and a very strong opposition to gun control. Yet after actually getting gun control the gun violence dropped significantly. Pretty much the only difference is that Australia is an island, while America is not. But Canada doesn't have much gun violence either so I don't see that being too much of a factor.
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:17 AM   #1592
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If you actually think the government will be able to take away guns from the American population then you know literally nothing about American culture. Here's a refresher: The 2nd Amendent was made so that the citizens theoretically had the ability to revolt against the government like the Americans did against the British.
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:55 AM   #1593
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Interestingly, this just popped up on my facebook after I saw Snorby's post.

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Old 06-13-2016, 03:33 AM   #1594
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Gun control in America is not sufficient, and it will not be sufficient until the second amendment is removed from the constitution.

This has gotten to the point of being inexcusable in a first-world country.
I disagree with this idea very strongly. I think that gun control is in a reasonable place right now, and while there is room for improvement, we shouldn't be looking towards the existence of guns as a threat to our lives. There are other, better ways to put a stop to gun violence and mass shootings.

Quote:
Over ten thousand people die yearly from gun violence.
In the 1990s, nearly 20,000 people died yearly from gun violence. Taking into account that the population now is drastically higher than it was 20 years ago...

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Mental illness is an issue, but gun control would do infinitely more to prevent homicides by guns.
And it would do infinitely less to prevent homicides in general.

Quote:
Just as a note...

There is audio and video recording of the shooting in Orlando. He started shooting with his AR-15 and I don't know if he ever switched to another kind of gun.

Not useful for mass shootings? My ass.
This is an M16. It is the big boy version of the AR-15. It shoots a lot more bullets in a lot less time. It was used in combat for a while due to the fact that it was an assault rifle, which is basically a machine gun on the go, and could mow down people very quickly. It is banned for sale to civilians in the US.

Do you think the AR-15 is better or worse for mass shootings than the M16?

The AR-15 is no more dangerous than a pistol or handgun. It is just larger. In fact, the Orlando shooter used both an AR-15 and...a Glock, I think. I know the VT shooter used a Glock (and no AR-15; I think they were banned at the time, which only serves to underscore how useless an assault weapons ban is).

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Oh Australia is a good example. I think i remember them having tons of problems with gun violence before, and a very strong opposition to gun control. Yet after actually getting gun control the gun violence dropped significantly.
Gun SUICIDES dropped significantly. Australia has historically had very few problems with gun violence and the restrictions just added to this effect while also being really unfair to reputable gun owners. America is MUCH different culturally.

@Muyo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia

Sort by date.

I wanted to believe ;-;

The trick is that he specified "public mass shootings," which discounts shootings done at universities and private properties.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:39 AM   #1595
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After review of the facts, though, i do think that gun control could stand to be expanded somewhat. But it should be done responsibly and in a way that closes loopholes rather than outright bans the use or ownership of perfectly legal firearms.

Ultimately though? Mass shootings won't stop just because you inconvenienced legal gun owners, and further gun control basically only does just that. Finding and addressing the problems that lead to shooting sprees are far more important to me than taking away the tools that are used to commit them.

Knives, fire, illegally obtained guns (gun control WILL NOT AFFECT THIS), poison, and cars are pretty good at mass murder too, after all.
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:54 AM   #1596
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I disagree with this idea very strongly. I think that gun control is in a reasonable place right now, and while there is room for improvement, we shouldn't be looking towards the existence of guns as a threat to our lives. There are other, better ways to put a stop to gun violence and mass shootings.
Guns should not be, en masse, in the hands of the public in a country, period. They are explicitly designed as a weapon for killing - whatever sports people use them for, the vast majority of people purchase weapons for "self-defence". The presence of a gun in an environment is an explicit danger to people around it. While other means of supressing gun violence do exist - I'm all for making it far, far harder to obtain ammunition as a first step - this problem is not going to stop until guns are out of people's hands.

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In the 1990s, nearly 20,000 people died yearly from gun violence. Taking into account that the population now is drastically higher than it was 20 years ago...
That doesn't make 10,000 deaths a year ok. That's like saying "Don't worry about the insects all over the place, there used to be a wasp hive in here!"

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And it would do infinitely less to prevent homicides in general.
60% of all homicides in the US in 2014 were carried out with a firearm. (Source.) That seems like a significant impact to me.

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@Muyo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_in_Australia

Sort by date.

I wanted to believe ;-;

The trick is that he specified "public mass shootings," which discounts shootings done at universities and private properties.
Four instances in 15 years - with only one of them in a public place - is still an incredible statistic.
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:30 AM   #1597
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Read this.

Since Dunblane Great Britain has had two - two - massacres. One involved guns, and the other one was a coordinated terrorist attack not perpetuated by citizens. The gun involvement was because of a system which absolutely failed on a nearly unprecedented scale. America has no excuse beyond flimsy attachment to the second amendment which in a time of relative peace means absolutely fuck all. If you asked any sane member of the population whether they felt guns were necessary - and I mean necessary, as the amendment seems to imply - I wager you will get an overwhelming majority telling you they're not.

America needs to wake the fuck up and realise that they need at the very least much stricter regulation. England regularly debate whether we need to up our restrictions and policies (and honestly we do), so if that's the case then America sure as hell does.

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Old 06-13-2016, 06:30 AM   #1598
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Guns should not be, en masse, in the hands of the public in a country, period. They are explicitly designed as a weapon for killing - whatever sports people use them for, the vast majority of people purchase weapons for "self-defence". The presence of a gun in an environment is an explicit danger to people around it. While other means of supressing gun violence do exist - I'm all for making it far, far harder to obtain ammunition as a first step - this problem is not going to stop until guns are out of people's hands.


This is where we differ culturally. I know many uses for firearms. A lot of it is collection behavior, some of it is the simple enjoyment of firearm use. I also have a great deal of military dudes in my friend circle - they're great guys and responsible gun owners.

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That doesn't make 10,000 deaths a year ok. That's like saying "Don't worry about the insects all over the place, there used to be a wasp hive in here!"
You might have a point here, in that gun deaths are Not Good and should be stopped. Having insects in your home is pretty bad. But in this case, you have a squillion cute and cuddly puppies living in your basement, separate from the a few thousand insects you declare to be living in your house.

Are you going to seal the house and light it on fire?

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60% of all homicides in the US in 2014 were carried out with a firearm. (Source.) That seems like a significant impact to me.
Only 60%? That surprises me. That's basically half plus a little. I think this evidence supports my point more than it does yours.

If guns are so dangerous and used only for killing, why isn't that number higher?

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Four instances in 15 years - with only one of them in a public place - is still an incredible statistic.
It seems nice until you realize that there were only 11 instances in the 15 years before that. Australia has enviously low violent crime rates. The gun control legislation was passed as a knee-jerk reaction to two closely spaced mass shootings in early 1996 and has had debatable effectiveness at curbing gun crime or even gun ownership.
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Old 06-13-2016, 07:11 AM   #1599
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This is where we differ culturally. I know many uses for firearms. A lot of it is collection behavior, some of it is the simple enjoyment of firearm use. I also have a great deal of military dudes in my friend circle - they're great guys and responsible gun owners.
I like heroin! I love collecting different types of heroin. I have a great deal of friends in the cartel and they're all responsible heroin users.

Quote:
You might have a point here, in that gun deaths are Not Good and should be stopped. Having insects in your home is pretty bad. But in this case, you have a squillion cute and cuddly puppies living in your basement, separate from the a few thousand insects you declare to be living in your house.

Are you going to seal the house and light it on fire?
Forgive me, but I do not understand this analogy at all.

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Only 60%? That surprises me. That's basically half plus a little. I think this evidence supports my point more than it does yours.

If guns are so dangerous and used only for killing, why isn't that number higher?
What the fuck.

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It seems nice until you realize that there were only 11 instances in the 15 years before that. Australia has enviously low violent crime rates. The gun control legislation was passed as a knee-jerk reaction to two closely spaced mass shootings in early 1996 and has had debatable effectiveness at curbing gun crime or even gun ownership.
This still doesn't change the fact that there have been less than half that number in the 15 years since. Any progress towards zero senseless killing sprees is good progress to me.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:08 AM   #1600
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I like heroin! I love collecting different types of heroin. I have a great deal of friends in the cartel and they're all responsible heroin users.
I don't know if this is worth my time to address. Do you really see guns as unilaterally dangerous? What about hunting or sport shooting? Is it really that incredulous to you that someone can enjoy shooting a gun?

And don't even continue down the heroin path. Do you like collecting pokemon? Playing video games? Eating cake? Deriving enjoyment from something doesn't make it dangerous.
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