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Old 03-08-2012, 06:59 PM   #401
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1, you're drawing attention away from the true criticism of your argument. This is not "let's debate how Christian the founding fathers were" time, this is "does the quote by Thomas Jefferson criticize a religious theocracy?" And the answer to that is that it most certainly does. Jefferson would have been flabbergasted by what you and Santorum want.

2, the opinions of one poet do not the policy of the United States government, then or now, make. Not to mention, copy and paste all the evidence we've shown you ad nauseum in the past that many of the Founding Fathers would, were they alive today, identify as non-practicing Christians, agnostics, or atheists. Including your very own Thomas Jefferson. I mean, how many times must we link you to this before you'll realize that Jefferson did not believe in the supernatural? That he valued Christian principles philosophically but not religiously?

Quote:
Quote:
The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth begins with an account of Jesus’s birth without references to angels, genealogy, or prophecy. Miracles, references to the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus, and Jesus' resurrection are also absent from The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth.
This is Thomas Jefferson. This is the man whose quote you're admiring. You're taking the words of a champion of rational thought and anti-superstition and twisting them around to suit your backwards, radically religious needs.
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:15 PM   #402
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unownmew: But the founding fathers were all ultra christians who wanted a christian nation full of christians!
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:36 PM   #403
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I'm reading the Jefferson Bible right now online courtesy of the Smithsonian Museum. This is ... this is really quite cruel to unownmew's beliefs. Jefferson literally went through a King James bible, took a pair of scissors, cut out the verses he wanted to keep, and glued them onto blank paper that he later had bound into a book. I shit you not.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/JeffersonBible/the-book/

There's the link so you can check it out for yourself. And for the lazy and/or in denial, I'll provide this juicy screencap from the the very start:


Jesus presented as mortal man: check
Jesus' status as son of God stripped out: check
The angel Gabriel stripped out: check
The three wise men stripped out: check
Fits with modern-day atheists' and agnosts' views that the historical Jesus, while he may well have been a real man and while he may well have even inspired religious fervor in his followers, was just a man, and was no son of God; and that what we should value about him are his philosophical teachings and the political impact he had on both Judea (locally) and Rome (more generally): check

It just gets better when you turn the page. I'm not going to screencap the whole book for you guys -- the Smithsonian's already done it for you! So just load up that link I posted and have at! -- but I think you'll easily see that when Wikipedia says "Jefferson took a razor to the Bible and trimmed it of all its supernatural claims," they weren't fucking kidding!

You want proof that Thomas Jefferson was not a fellow Christian theocrat, unownmew? Here's your proof. Thomas Jefferson's Bible of choice was a Bible in which Jesus was no son of God. He was but a man. A blessed man, yes, and one who, even in Jefferson's Bible, spread the word of God (as he claimed it to be). But Jefferson's Bible strips any and all claims from it that Jesus was the son of God. You could therefore say that Jefferson had more in common with Muslims, who believe that Jesus was a prophet of God's but that he was only a mortal man and that he was the blood-son of Joseph and Mary, than he has in common with you, his precious admirer.

inb4 unownmew's head blown as he realizes that this nation was founded by proto-Islamists (I kid, I kid.)
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:38 PM   #404
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I probably shouldn't have laughed as much at that as I did. Thanks Talon!
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Old 03-08-2012, 07:55 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by Muyotwo View Post
unownmew: But the founding fathers were all ultra christians who wanted a christian nation full of christians!
Seems legit.
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:27 PM   #406
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*sigh*

You want to debate whether this Nation was founded as a Christian nation?

Well, first we have to determine what "Christian Founding" actually means.

Does it mean:
1. The people who wrote the Constitution were all religious Christians?
2. America was founded to be a nation where Christianity was the official religion/national church?
3. The people in America at the time of the founding where in majority, Christians?
4. America was founded and it's people intended to adhere to Christian morals?
5. America was from it's beginning, a place of Christian faith?
6. The people who made America, made it, under God (thus a theocracy), a Christian nation?

I'll already concede definitions 1 and 2. There's no argument there, and frankly, they mean little for either side of the argument.

So, from the remaining 4, pick your poison.
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:32 PM   #407
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What the nation was founded on is not necessarily what's best for us now. Just sayin'
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:43 PM   #408
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>under god

What is this, the fifteenth time now that it's been pointed out that that was introduced in the pledge in the '50s to fight off commies? Not to mention 'In God We Trust' was as well.

Certainly the phrasing was originally used in The Star Spangled Banner, but that song was written by Francis Scott Key, who was writing it as he watched the battle unfold. Obivously as Christian, placing your trust in God is what you do.

Just saiyan.

Last edited by deoxys; 03-08-2012 at 10:46 PM.
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:05 PM   #409
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Just saiyan.
YOU AM NO REAL SUPER SAND
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:57 PM   #410
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Our nation might have been founded by Christians, but they were more heavily influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, which isn't religious at all, and were strictly anti-Calvinist, a.k.a. the ancestors of our modern fundamentalists Christians. Measures were even taken to keep Calvinists from ever holding public office. It worked for 200 years, up until the late 1960's early 1970's, when modern communication allowed distant factions to band together.

Anyway, Chaotic's completely right.
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:50 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotic View Post
What the nation was founded on is not necessarily what's best for us now. Just sayin'
Are you telling me that Christian Morals like Honesty, Justice, Charity, Freedom of Religion, don't kill, etc, and Founding Principles like life, liberty, Property, free speech, free assembly, militia and bearing arms, understandable/readable laws, Limited Government, Separation of Powers, Fiduciary Government, etc, can be bad things that need to be replaced?

What would you replace? With what would you replace it? And why is your replacement better then the original?

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Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
>under god

What is this, the fifteenth time now that it's been pointed out that that was introduced in the pledge in the '50s to fight off commies? Not to mention 'In God We Trust' was as well.

Certainly the phrasing was originally used in The Star Spangled Banner, but that song was written by Francis Scott Key, who was writing it as hey watched the battle unfold. Obivously as Christian, placing your trust in God is what you do.

Just saiyan.
My use of the phrasing "under God," was in the sense of being a Nation who respects God as a power higher then itself. Not referring to the pledge at all.

As for The Star Spangled Banner, considering it was adopted as the National Anthem, I assume it carries the weight of Congress' approval, which usually means something legally.

Also one of the legal maxims that were incorporated into the Constitution:
"Jurare est Deus in testem vocare, et est actus Divini cultus."

Just sayin'.



Edit: Missed this line in Talon's post:
Quote:
1, you're drawing attention away from the true criticism of your argument. This is not "let's debate how Christian the founding fathers were" time, this is "does the quote by Thomas Jefferson criticize a religious theocracy?" And the answer to that is that it most certainly does. Jefferson would have been flabbergasted by what you and Santorum want.
So tell me, since you seem to know our thoughts so well. What DO Santorum and I want?
Answer me that, and I will be frankly honest with you on whether you are right or wrong.

Last edited by unownmew; 03-09-2012 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:53 AM   #412
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:54 AM   #413
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>Christian morals
> Freedom of religion


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Old 03-09-2012, 10:24 AM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
>Christian morals
> Freedom of religion
It is a properly Christian thing to do, to respect others and allow them to worship as they choose.

Before Christianity, religion was always forced by governments. After Christianity, Christianity was forced by Christians in name only, and not true followers of the teachings. America did away with all that. But Morals are universal, which also happen to be Christian in nature.

Don't kill
Don't steal
Don't lie
Don't commit adultery
Don't defame others
Be kind to people
Be Respectful
Be Charitable
Be humble
Be loving
etc.

All Christian; all universally good ideas. No?

Last edited by unownmew; 03-09-2012 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:12 AM   #415
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The problem with you, unownmew -- the really irritating, disgusting problem with you -- is that you keep equating universal morals that Christianity also happens to agree with with "Christian morals," and you implicitly suggest that any morals of other world-faiths, philosophies, or religions with which Christianity does not agree must needs be cast aside. In other words, you truly hunger for a Christian nation but, like the wolf in sheep's clothing, you're trying to coddle us by saying "a Christian nation shouldn't be offensive to you guys because Christian morals are universal morals, n'est-ce pas?" No, not n'est-ce pas. Many of the morals found in Christianity that the entire planet agrees are good ideas -- don't kill other people, don't steal, be kind, be charitous -- are ideas you will find in philosophies the world over at times and in areas of the globe untouched by Christian thought. From ancient Greece to ancient China, from the Persian Empire to the Aboriginal culture pre-Australian colonists, you will find a set of morals with some of these basic tenets that Christians also value. And that's because these laws, these rules by which humans play the Society game, are pretty damn effective at keeping the group together and at keeping the group as happy as it can be.

But there are other Christian morals, unownmew, which are not universal. Christian morals which you would shove down our throats that the rest of us want no part of. Some of them are contentious even within Christian circles (like the question of Biblical homophobia), but for some there's little room for debate (like the question of abortion, particularly if you're Catholic and have to respect the Papacy's edicts). I don't want a nation in which women cannot get abortions. I don't want a nation in which gays can't marry. I don't want a nation in which Creationism is taught in public schools or given the equal time of day that proper science is to be given. I don't want an America where the motto is "In God We Trust," as if to be an atheist means I am not American, that I am incapable of true patriotism and loyalty to my country. I don't want your Christian nation. And neither did the Founding Fathers. What I do want, and what they also wanted, are the good aspects of your religion. Aspects which, I am telling you, you can find in many other world religions and philosophies. There's a lot of good to be found in the gospels, but there's also a whole lot of rubbish to be found. I don't want the rubbish. And therefore I don't want you or people like you running this country. Ever. The day America becomes a Christian nation is the day the dream of the Founding Fathers dies.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:13 AM   #416
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Sorry, mate. They're not Christian. They're human.

Edit: Dammit, Talon beat me to it.

Edit2: Just one thing, unownmew. If you're going to put in one more argument about Evolution, please- I'm requesting you- make a separate thread.
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Old 03-09-2012, 02:25 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post

Edit2: Just one thing, unownmew. If you're going to put in one more argument about Evolution, please- I'm requesting you- make a separate thread.
When did I make an argument about evolution here recently?


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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
The problem with you, unownmew -- the really irritating, disgusting problem with you -- is that you keep equating universal morals that Christianity also happens to agree with with "Christian morals," and you implicitly suggest that any morals of other world-faiths, philosophies, or religions with which Christianity does not agree must needs be cast aside. In other words, you truly hunger for a Christian nation but, like the wolf in sheep's clothing, you're trying to coddle us by saying "a Christian nation shouldn't be offensive to you guys because Christian morals are universal morals, n'est-ce pas?" No, not n'est-ce pas. Many of the morals found in Christianity that the entire planet agrees are good ideas -- don't kill other people, don't steal, be kind, be charitous -- are ideas you will find in philosophies the world over at times and in areas of the globe untouched by Christian thought. From ancient Greece to ancient China, from the Persian Empire to the Aboriginal culture pre-Australian colonists, you will find a set of morals with some of these basic tenets that Christians also value. And that's because these laws, these rules by which humans play the Society game, are pretty damn effective at keeping the group together and at keeping the group as happy as it can be.

But there are other Christian morals, unownmew, which are not universal. Christian morals which you would shove down our throats that the rest of us want no part of. Some of them are contentious even within Christian circles (like the question of Biblical homophobia), but for some there's little room for debate (like the question of abortion, particularly if you're Catholic and have to respect the Papacy's edicts). I don't want a nation in which women cannot get abortions. I don't want a nation in which gays can't marry. I don't want a nation in which Creationism is taught in public schools or given the equal time of day that proper science is to be given. I don't want an America where the motto is "In God We Trust," as if to be an atheist means I am not American, that I am incapable of true patriotism and loyalty to my country. I don't want your Christian nation. And neither did the Founding Fathers. What I do want, and what they also wanted, are the good aspects of your religion. Aspects which, I am telling you, you can find in many other world religions and philosophies. There's a lot of good to be found in the gospels, but there's also a whole lot of rubbish to be found. I don't want the rubbish. And therefore I don't want you or people like you running this country. Ever. The day America becomes a Christian nation is the day the dream of the Founding Fathers dies.
Ok. Which morals are there that are not shared by Christianity? And why are they universal morals? Furthermore, which morals exactly are there that are specifically universally Christian, but not universal, that I'm advocating to "shove down your throat"? I expect little ground can be made if we don't understand where we each are coming from.

No Homosexuality/gay marriage?
-When in human history (before this century) has homosexual marriage ever been sanctioned? What happened to the society that allowed it? I only know of Sodom and Gomorrah as possibilities, do you know of any others? I'd love to know what happened to them if you do.
-Marriage has always traditionally been between a man and a woman, not just the bible, but everywhere, because the institution of marriage is designed for the creation of families- procreation and raising of children. Not: "having lawful sex and adoption" or "Tax credits for two."
-The Family is an essential element of any society. This isn't just a Christian moral, is it? We're not outlawing homosexual tendencies/actions, simply preserving what has always been human tradition.

No Abortion?
-Well, this is quite a quandary, isn't it? Are not ALL Humans permitted to certain inalienable rights, like Life, as it is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence? So, are humans "alive" while in the womb or not? What does science say? If they are determined to be alive, would it not be a murder to kill them? And if murder is outlawed in every other case, why should there be exceptions made?
-Furthermore, most conservatives railing against Abortion, are actually railing against FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FUNDED ABORTION, using their tax dollars, not, private entities that offer the services for payment. Classic example of intentional misrepresentation against us.

Intelligent Design taught in schools?
-What gives YOU the right to determine wholly what any teacher or school wishes to teach it's attendees?
-Why are YOU allowed to infringe freedom of religion and speech?
-Science and religion are two completely different things that can never contradict each other. Only when you make science INTO a religion, do the two contradict. When that occurs, either, neither should be taught, or both should be counter-weighed in the same class.

"In God We Trust"?
-So you don't like the national Motto? Which was determined by Americans before your birth? Well, nothing's stopping you from not trusting in God as a private citizen. And in no way are you infringed in any way by a Trust in God by officials in the public sector. Simply, this is you, choosing yourself to be offended by something that does not affect you. If you can't bring yourself to be loyal to a Country that publicly recognizes God, but does not use Him to "infringe" on your inalienable rights, you're free to tolerate it, turn treasonous, or move to another country. You are not free however, to infringe on the religions of others, as we Christians the same, or to set up a National Atheism.


Patriotism-
There are two kinds of Patriotism:
Love of Country (regardless of what it does)
and
Love of Freedom/Liberty.

In America, patriotism is the Love of Freedom, Liberty, and Country. If you can love the freedom you receive, and love allowing your fellow Citizens that same freedom under this government, then you can be a patriot.

I may not like your religion, or believe the same, and heavily resent the attempts to make it nationally required, but I'll fight and die to protect your right to hold your own beliefs as private citizens, and not be required by law to worship the same way I do. Though I doubt you would do the same.

Last edited by unownmew; 03-09-2012 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 03-09-2012, 02:47 PM   #418
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You only know of soddom and gommorah because of the Bible. But those by far were not the only societies. Homosexuality was a very important part of Grecian society for a very long time. Men were almost all bisexual and only had sex with their wives to bare children. Any time they wanted to do it for fun was with other men. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There have been many... many societies which did almost this exact same thing. Sodom and gommorah were destroyed because of their attitudes about sex in general and how they were violent and filled with rapists who cared about no one but themselves. But do not think for a moment they were the only society. But you're right,its not only a Christian moral... but also a Jewish and Islamic one too. And yet in this world people are born gay and even if you may disagree with it, they should be free yo practice what they want, and if you truly believe God will damn them to hell for it, then that is between that person and God upon his judgment, so you should have no right to interfere and tell them what they can or can't do as an equal.

It bothers me a bit, I'll admit, how eloquently you debate your point and yet it doesn't truly reflect on how much you know. We've come to a stalemate with you several times now because debates have ended (not always, just some) with you saying how you aren't aware of something or other that is honestly kind of common knowledge.
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Old 03-09-2012, 02:51 PM   #419
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By your own definition, then, you are no true patriot at all. You seek to strip the people of this nation of the liberties they enjoy in the name of your god. I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times: we don't want your Christian nation.

America is not an atheist nation. Keeping God out of government is not the same thing as mandating that everyone become an atheist. Don't pollute this debate any longer with your lies and misdirection. If you want a true example of an atheist nation, look to a Communist state. If you want examples of a secular nation in which the government is kept separate from religion, look at the United States, Great Britain, France, Germany, ... If you want a theocracy in which the governing body governs in accordance not with the will of the people but instead the alleged word of God, look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, ... yeah, real keepers you've got there.
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:32 PM   #420
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Quote:
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You only know of soddom and gommorah because of the Bible. But those by far were not the only societies. Homosexuality was a very important part of Grecian society for a very long time. Men were almost all bisexual and only had sex with their wives to bare children. Any time they wanted to do it for fun was with other men. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. There have been many... many societies which did almost this exact same thing. Sodom and gommorah were destroyed because of their attitudes about sex in general and how they were violent and filled with rapists who cared about no one but themselves. But do not think for a moment they were the only society. But you're right,its not only a Christian moral... but also a Jewish and Islamic one too. And yet in this world people are born gay and even if you may disagree with it, they should be free yo practice what they want, and if you truly believe God will damn them to hell for it, then that is between that person and God upon his judgment, so you should have no right to interfere and tell them what they can or can't do as an equal.
Could you quote your sources for that please? (For which Ancient Civilizations practiced and allowed gay marriages) I'd like to know more about that.

Personally, it is my belief that allowing homosexuality for long enough, will lead to the same sort of society Sodom and Gomorrah were, but as I currently have no evidence to prove either way, it is only a belief.

Quote:
It bothers me a bit, I'll admit, how eloquently you debate your point and yet it doesn't truly reflect on how much you know. We've come to a stalemate with you several times now because debates have ended (not always, just some) with you saying how you aren't aware of something or other that is honestly kind of common knowledge.
When that does occur, I usually ask for information so that I may educate myself. Do I not? If not, that's what I'd like to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
By your own definition, then, you are no true patriot at all. You seek to strip the people of this nation of the liberties they enjoy in the name of your god. I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times: we don't want your Christian nation.
Which liberties am I seeking to strip this nation of? You keep making these broad statements, but never support them with anything but hot air.. I'd like to know exactly what I'm accused of, so that I may defend myself.

Quote:
America is not an atheist nation. Keeping God out of government is not the same thing as mandating that everyone become an atheist. Don't pollute this debate any longer with your lies and misdirection. If you want a true example of an atheist nation, look to a Communist state. If you want examples of a secular nation in which the government is kept separate from religion, look at the United States, Great Britain, France, Germany, ...
And keeping God in the government is not the same thing as mandating everyone become a Christian either. For those public officials who desire to display their religion openly, either by remarks, or displays, but not enforce that religion on others, I see nothing wrong with letting them.

For those "religious" laws I desire, I desire because they are moral, and promote morality on the part of the citizen, not because they are religious. And I expect Santorum believes the same.

Quote:
If you want a theocracy in which the governing body governs in accordance not with the will of the people but instead the alleged word of God, look at Iran, Saudi Arabia, ... yeah, real keepers you've got there.
On the contrary, I have never said I desire a Theocracy that rules according to the alleged word of God. What I have said is, America was founded as a Theocracy, theocracy being defined in my mind as, "a Moral country, recognizing God as a power higher then itself", NOT, Theocracy being defined as ruling by the "Church" or "what a certain religion says is the 'Word of God.'"

I've never once advocated Tithing laws in the government, or laws requiring regular church attendance, or confessing Christ as the redeemer, etc., as you are trying to imply here. I seek only those laws which are for (for the most part) generally universal regarding the morality of the Nation, be they associated with religion or not, as chosen by the will of the people.

It's not my fault Atheists gets to pick and choose what a "moral" is and isn't depending on what's most advantageous for their situation.

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Old 03-09-2012, 03:51 PM   #421
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I didn't say MARRIAGE. I just said homosexuality was a norm.

And I don't feel like it. Look them up yourself.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:30 PM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
On the contrary, I have never said I desire a Theocracy that rules according to the alleged word of God. What I have said is, America was founded as a Theocracy, theocracy being defined in my mind as, "a Moral country, recognizing God as a power higher then itself", NOT, Theocracy being defined as ruling by the "Church" or "what a certain religion says is the 'Word of God.'"
"What I have said is, America was founded as a 'theocracy' ... whereby I mean totally NOT a theocracy when you catch me with my pants down. " Honestly, this was your last straw.

*puts unownmew on global ignore list*

Sorry, but you crossed the line one too many times. You have no idea how many times I've held off on doing this to you.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:39 PM   #423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
"What I have said is, America was founded as a 'theocracy' ... whereby I mean totally NOT a theocracy when you catch me with my pants down. " Honestly, this was your last straw.

*puts unownmew on global ignore list*

Sorry, but you crossed the line one too many times. You have no idea how many times I've held off on doing this to you.
*sigh* Though you won't see this, you can read in every post I made regarding it being a Theocracy, Each and Every Single Time I redefined the word Theocracy that way for clarity of my meaning. The evidence is there, not my fault you made an assumption and it came back to bite you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by deoxys View Post
I didn't say MARRIAGE. I just said homosexuality was a norm.
Oh, so, you're telling me nowhere in history has marriage been ever defined as something other then a man and a woman? What are we arguing for then?

Quote:
And I don't feel like it. Look them up yourself.
I may, on my own time.

Last edited by unownmew; 03-09-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 03-09-2012, 07:03 PM   #424
Chaotic
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Gay marriage is not hurting anyone.

Secularization of the government/schools promotes equality between faiths.

Obama does not have a war against religion. He himself is a Christian.

Liberals are not all atheist. Over 50% of liberals have strong faith in some higher power.

Atheists are people too. And are just as good as Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, Satanists, etc.

Removing religion from government neither advocates nor inhibits any religion.

Evolution can be observed firsthand. For example, we are witness to natural selection, we can observe genetic mutation and how it alters traits, etc. Evolution is nothing more that the adaptation of a species to its surroundings over time. This can also be seen visibly in fossils and the like.

Religious Morality is not superior to Godless morality.

One moral that is often forgone by religion is reason, which is abandoned in favor of the absolutist nature of theism in general. Reason is necessary because we must question the rules that are given to us, we must question the traditions, etc, in order to evaluate what would create the best world for everyone.

Yes, many morals are preached by various religions. However, these morals are independent of the belief in a higher power.
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:53 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew
No Homosexuality/gay marriage?
-When in human history (before this century) has homosexual marriage ever been sanctioned? What happened to the society that allowed it? I only know of Sodom and Gomorrah as possibilities, do you know of any others? I'd love to know what happened to them if you do.
I can think of one.

SPARTA!

Honestly, the main reason Sparta was a formidable fighting force in Grecian times was BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL GAY! The Spartans were bound inextricably by super-rainbow-gayness and this is why they were able to defeat pretty much anyone they fought against.

If our military was made up of gay men, we'd have one heck of a fighting force. Tell me one disadvantage of having a military made up of gay people.

Oh yeah, Santorum already said it:
Quote:
They're in close quarters, they live with people, they obviously shower with people
While this wasn't your specific point, I figured it would be worthwhile to mention this factoid because sooner of later it will indeed come to the military and I wanted to nip this in the bud ;) And it in an indirect way does answer your argument.
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