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Old 03-05-2012, 08:54 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
If Citizens were no longer taxed to support public schools (among other useless government services), and schools competed with each other for price and services, and were no longer mandated to provide certain services unilaterally, why wouldn't parents have the money to afford private schools? (short of poor financial decisions on their own part)
Here's how:

Both parents lose their jobs, and after being unable to find sources of income they become homeless after not being able to pay for their house. Even though they are not being taxed for public schools, they certainly wouldn't be able to afford a private school. Why? Because if they couldn't afford to pay to live in a home, how could they possibly pay for a child to go to a private school?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of parents would rather be able to keep a roof over their child's/children's head(s) and not afford to send them to school, rather than vice versa.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:55 PM   #352
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Uh, poor financial decisions? No. There are plenty of circumstances in which a family can be low income. My grandmother couldn't work because of her bodily problems, and my grandfather was a baker. We made under 15K a year. We barely had enough to support ourselves as it was. we had no way of affording private education. So no. Don't even say shit like that.
Well, I'm sorry about that. If we would return to the Gold standard for money, there would be much fewer problems for lower-income workers. I'm totally not against Scholarships for low-income families and local community help, but Education should be a private enterprise controlled by private entities, not a public service run and organized by the state.

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From personal experience, there are plenty of extraneous circumstances. Not everyone can afford private education.
Assuming there were a public option. If there was no public option, people would Make education affordable for themselves, or others. I'm not against helping those who can't help themselves, just leave control of education in the hands of the private sector, not the public one.

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Old 03-05-2012, 08:55 PM   #353
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Had we had to pay for private schooling, I would be illiterate. >>;

Education should be federally funded, IMO.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:02 PM   #354
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Education should never be left only in the hands of the private sector. Ever. We have enough uneducated people in the country as it is.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:04 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by phoopes View Post
Here's how:

Both parents lose their jobs, and after being unable to find sources of income they become homeless after not being able to pay for their house. Even though they are not being taxed for public schools, they certainly wouldn't be able to afford a private school. Why? Because if they couldn't afford to pay to live in a home, how could they possibly pay for a child to go to a private school?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of parents would rather be able to keep a roof over their child's/children's head(s) and not afford to send them to school, rather than vice versa.
That's unfortunate for them, and in such a state of destitution, I'm all for welfare support both locally and by [State] governments. For more then just home and education.

But, under what circumstances would both parents lose their job and can no longer find work, that was not of their own doing, short of a severe and long-lasting Depression being helped along by government over-regulation and over-taxation of businesses, such that businesses can not afford to hire or retain employees?
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:06 PM   #356
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You can't deny the kids an education because of a parent's poor financial decisions. That's wrong on so many levels.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:08 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Assuming there were a public option. If there was no public option, people would Make education affordable for themselves, or others. I'm not against helping those who can't help themselves, just leave control of education in the hands of the private sector, not the public one.
Sorry but the free market is just a giant circle jerk of exploitation. Case in point: Just about anything regarding Health Care.

Sorry but everyone should get an education. That is why there are laws that force parents to send their kids to school. Do you really want to live in a society where (probably around) 20-30% of kids will end up not going? Maybe more? Sounds like a great way to end up as a third world country.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:13 PM   #358
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Education should not be a business. Education is for the net benefit of our society. Thus, it is most beneficial if it is made available to everyone.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:15 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by Chaotic View Post
Had we had to pay for private schooling, I would be illiterate. >>;

Education should be federally funded, IMO.
I'm sorry you grew up in such poverty. But you seem to be under the impression that private K-12 education would be extremely costly. If government would just cease regulating education, and requiring they provide certain services, and if the private schools had to compete with each other on cost, the cost would drop dramatically.

Of course there would be the elite schools, but general schooling wouldn't be impossible. Again, I support scholarships private and public for the underprivileged of society, that would further reduce the cost, or even make it free, for select, needy individuals.

Furthermore, not being taxed for it, would mean parents have more money to spend on their children's education, and proper financial planning taking any extra costs into account, short of extraneous circumstances as you described, would secure education for the vast majority of individuals.

Japan does it as well for requiring tuition for Middle and High Schools, with only elementary grades being fully publicly funded (i.e. "Free") I can't see why a similar system can't work in other places.

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Education should never be left only in the hands of the private sector. Ever. We have enough uneducated people in the country as it is.
Your logic being?
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:26 PM   #360
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Private schools are not required to offer special education services, for one.

Economically, schools only in the private sector would cause a pretty large loss of jobs. You don't have to be certified to teach in a private school. You just have to be able to teach the subject to the extent that the organization sees fit. This means that those most qualified to teach may not necessarily get jobs.

Also, education in the private sector would seriously harm the secularized school environment. Students would not have to be treated equally or anything of the like, and any beliefs could be advocated by the teachers. Government regulation is necessary to provide standards for the schools.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:27 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Chaotic View Post
You can't deny the kids an education because of a parent's poor financial decisions. That's wrong on so many levels.
You seem to be missing each time I say, I'm for helping the underprivileged and needy to get a private education through scholarships and grants both public and private. Just because it's private doesn't mean it has to be inaccessible.

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Sorry but the free market is just a giant circle jerk of exploitation. Case in point: Just about anything regarding Health Care.

Sorry but everyone should get an education. That is why there are laws that force parents to send their kids to school. Do you really want to live in a society where (probably around) 20-30% of kids will end up not going? Maybe more? Sounds like a great way to end up as a third world country.
Considering an unhealthy amount of students are dropping out of school early already, I really think this sort of argument is moot. Under a private system, nothing's stopping people from not going (except a law), and nothing's stopping those who really want to go from going. Scholarships and grants work fine for Higher education. Why in then world would they not work for lower education as well?

Again, the cost of education would drop drastically, if government would cease regulating it and mandating they offer certain services.

Again, The Japanese have a semi-private school system (requiring tuition) for Middle and High schools, and it's working perfectly fine for them. I really don't see how your doom and gloom prophecies will come to pass by moving to a private system.

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Education should not be a business. Education is for the net benefit of our society. Thus, it is most beneficial if it is made available to everyone.
So you support turning Universities over to the national government's control as well then? I suppose you think every person is entitled to the very very best education as well, both k-12 and higher learning, no? For absolutely "Free"?
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:32 PM   #362
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You're putting words into my mouth. There are community colleges that are very low cost for that. There are also many state colleges that offer generous financial aid to in-state residents. There are public universities and private universities for a reason. Just as there are public schools and private schools. Community college is available to everyone. And is VERY affordable.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:41 PM   #363
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Private schools are not required to offer special education services, for one.

And parents are already allowed to Homeschool their children. I see no reason to cease that privilege. Private schools may not be required, but I can assure you, some will anyway. One person may even found a purely special education school, for providing the best of Special education to special needs children.

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Economically, schools only in the private sector would cause a pretty large loss of jobs. You don't have to be certified to teach in a private school. You just have to be able to teach the subject to the extent that the organization sees fit. This means that those most qualified to teach may not necessarily get jobs.
Economically, if there was an instantaneous movement from public to purely private education, yes, there would be some upheaval, and a lot of job loss. But that would quickly settle down as private entities started founding new schools and hiring the old teachers back again. In terms of procedure to prevent such upheaval, a gradual movement to private education would be the best choice.

No doubt some schools would cut cost and pricing, and provide less then excellent service, but considering the current large obsession in the private sector to get 'the best of the best," I highly doubt those types of schools would be the majority. More likely there would be middle and excellent tier schools

Originally, at the founding, education WAS private, and it worked then.

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Also, education in the private sector would seriously harm the secularized school environment. Students would not have to be treated equally or anything of the like, and any beliefs could be advocated by the teachers. Government regulation is necessary to provide standards for the schools.
You're right, partially. However, those harmful schools would have to compete with neighboring schools, so, parents would have a choice as to where they want their child to be educated. If the school is terrible enough, they'll lose customers and go out of business or they'll have to step up their efforts and do better.

I fully support a school's right to advocate certain beliefs. If those aren't the beliefs a Parent wants their child to hear, they have the opportunity to choose a different school. Something they CAN NOT do, short of home-schooling, under a public education system.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:49 PM   #364
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You're putting words into my mouth. There are community colleges that are very low cost for that. There are also many state colleges that offer generous financial aid to in-state residents. There are public universities and private universities for a reason. Just as there are public schools and private schools. Community college is available to everyone. And is VERY affordable.
You could say that, or you could say I was trying to clarify your viewpoints.

You have a point, there are public and private universities. But why would financial aid not also apply to non-university private schools? I support the parent's right to choose which school to send their kids too. But Public education dominates everything at the k-12 level. Short of finding some private school somewhere far away and paying a large amount, parents have little choice between homeschooling and the nearest public school.

Maybe there could be a happy middle ground, but I support more for private education. And fewer public schools means less need for taxes to support them, thus reducing the tax burden on everyone.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:00 PM   #365
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Again, the cost of education would drop drastically, if government would cease regulating it and mandating they offer certain services.
I hope you're not being serious here.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:05 PM   #366
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And fewer public schools means less need for taxes to support them, thus reducing the tax burden on everyone.
Ah, there's the rub. You see, the U.S. lags far behind in education standings compared to the rest of the world.

Of course, aliteracy and cultural education theory would disagree with all of our postulating, but in my opinion we're just not as good at getting people to learn as we were. Part of this is the Dept. of Education, but the real reason is that education has become homogeneous with the installment of federal education standards. According to the government department of education, we all apparently learn the same way, which as anyone can tell you is not at all true. The No Child Left Behind effort (Bush administration, before you claim liberal-minded brainwashing) failed dismally in attempting to impose benchmark standards and set the country up to par with the rest of the world.

Education? It should be Public. Privatized education increases the already huge income disparity and will place us nicely on the brink of viva la revolution, but national education standards obviously don't work - we need a limited number of powerful entities which are able to focus their efforts onto their own divisions and are in constant competition with each other in an American-style capitalist race to be on top. Hmm. What's a system that has all of the spending power of the federal government and all of the competitive atmosphere of the private sector?

I'll give you a hint; number 10.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:30 PM   #367
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Of course, aliteracy and cultural education theory
>aliteracy

*cough*
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:31 PM   #368
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Of course, aliteracy and cultural education theory
Me fail english? That's unpossible.
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Old 03-06-2012, 04:33 AM   #369
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It's unfeasible to even consider 'making things the way they were at the time of founding'. Times have changed. Principles can remain, but implementing ideas and policies from a generation over 200 years in the past is dangerous and would break the country completely.

Also I just want to say, as being potentially one of the only people here who can speak from experience, I attended (religious) private schools from kindergarten through twelfth grade, and it was an utter waste of money for my parents. Having reflected on all of my education, primarily in high school, I would have almost certainly been better off in a public school.

But lets be honest here, being as how my mother has a very similar outlook to you, the truth lies not in your defenses of why you want a new schooling system, but in what they teach. You and I both know by private you really mean religious and capitalism at it's best, right? Because public schools don't teach the word of God or deem it offensive, right? Maybe I shouldn't be making such assumptions, but I've heard this reasoning one too many times.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:54 AM   #370
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So you support turning Universities over to the national government's control as well then? I suppose you think every person is entitled to the very very best education as well, both k-12 and higher learning, no? For absolutely "Free"?
I think that higher education should be free to the qualified. It's the way the Germans do it, and their system is pretty fucking awesome. The Australian system is superior to the US one as well, as the government pays for your education for you, but they take it back out of your paycheck bit by bit once you get a job that pays above a certain wage- this way university students aren't crippled by a mountain of debt immediately out of school.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:01 AM   #371
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I think that higher education should be free to the qualified. It's the way the Germans do it, and their system is pretty fucking awesome. The Australian system is superior to the US one as well, as the government pays for your education for you, but they take it back out of your paycheck bit by bit once you get a job that pays above a certain wage- this way university students aren't crippled by a mountain of debt immediately out of school.
Man, every place but here is so cool. I wish I could move
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:50 AM   #372
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I think that higher education should be free to the qualified. It's the way the Germans do it, and their system is pretty fucking awesome. The Australian system is superior to the US one as well, as the government pays for your education for you, but they take it back out of your paycheck bit by bit once you get a job that pays above a certain wage- this way university students aren't crippled by a mountain of debt immediately out of school.
This makes so much sense. And guess what unownmew.......

Spoiler: show
THESE COUNTRIES ARE JUST AS FREE AS THE UNITED STATES!~


Oh, the conservative brainwashing.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:52 AM   #373
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I hope you're not being serious here.
Then would you be so kind as to tell me why regulation is NOT raising the cost of [higher] education? (Have to specify higher education as, it's the only one that has private entities)
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Ah, there's the rub. You see, the U.S. lags far behind in education standings compared to the rest of the world.

Of course, aliteracy and cultural education theory would disagree with all of our postulating, but in my opinion we're just not as good at getting people to learn as we were. Part of this is the Dept. of Education, but the real reason is that education has become homogeneous with the installment of federal education standards. According to the government department of education, we all apparently learn the same way, which as anyone can tell you is not at all true. The No Child Left Behind effort (Bush administration, before you claim liberal-minded brainwashing) failed dismally in attempting to impose benchmark standards and set the country up to par with the rest of the world.
I agree with you here all the way. [Gasp! I'm criticizing someone from my own party!]

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Education? It should be Public. Privatized education increases the already huge income disparity and will place us nicely on the brink of viva la revolution, but national education standards obviously don't work - we need a limited number of powerful entities which are able to focus their efforts onto their own divisions and are in constant competition with each other in an American-style capitalist race to be on top. Hmm. What's a system that has all of the spending power of the federal government and all of the competitive atmosphere of the private sector?
I disagree that there would be a problem with income disparity due to privatized education. Japan seems to have a well working system where middle and high school isn't "public."

I agree education needs to compete with itself, but I don't know what you mean by powerful entities. Sounds like Monopolies or Government agencies to me, neither of which I want to see. There's no need for any entity to have the spending power of the US, even the US itself. It's gross mismanagement, and contempt for the American taxpayer who has to foot the bill.

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It's unfeasible to even consider 'making things the way they were at the time of founding'. Times have changed. Principles can remain, but implementing ideas and policies from a generation over 200 years in the past is dangerous and would break the country completely.
Such as the idea of religious liberty, and the policy of outlawing murder?

Times have changed, and there are new things to address, but the old ways certainly are not bad ways. Principles such as freedom and liberty, limited government, free markets, separation of powers, sovereignty of the people, by the people, and the policies that accompanied them back then, are just as valid as now. We make a mistake when we think "New = Better," on the contrary, it's most often not the case.

The only think that would brake this country would be things poorly implemented or intentionally designed to brake it.

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Also I just want to say, as being potentially one of the only people here who can speak from experience, I attended (religious) private schools from kindergarten through twelfth grade, and it was an utter waste of money for my parents. Having reflected on all of my education, primarily in high school, I would have almost certainly been better off in a public school.
And I attended public school, and am rather sure I'd have been better off in a good upstanding private school. Public school is overrated, and certainly not the best environment for learning. Druggies and people who misbehave make for poor classmates.

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But lets be honest here, being as how my mother has a very similar outlook to you, the truth lies not in your defenses of why you want a new schooling system, but in what they teach. You and I both know by private you really mean religious and capitalism at it's best, right? Because public schools don't teach the word of God or deem it offensive, right? Maybe I shouldn't be making such assumptions, but I've heard this reasoning one too many times.
While it would be nice to have schools teaching morality, patriotism, and God, if that were my only reason, I'd advocate for teaching it in public schools, not for making education wholly privatized.

No, my worry is Public education, being run by government, make it easy for government to brainwash with propaganda, if it decided it wanted to, to the detriment of the citizens, possibly to the persuasion of them to give up their liberties.

That's my true reason, but beyond that, I believe everything should be done in the private sector, and not in the public, save those duties government was given. One because the Central Government doesn't have authority to do otherwise, and two, because it's more efficient, and keeps government from having control over people.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:56 AM   #374
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? This isn't 1984, unownmew, many of my high school teachers publicly stated their disdain for the government. Public school is not a brainwashing tool for the government, and in fact, it has actually taught me to question whether the government is right in their actions.

And your point about druggies apply to private schools as well, not just public.
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:12 PM   #375
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You forget that mew hasn't a clue what 1984 is or how it relates to today.

Also mew, I'm willing to bet the bullying and drug dealing at my PRIVATE schools were worse than your public.
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