02-23-2014, 03:43 PM | #1251 |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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Probably not worth arguing anachronisms. It's bad enough that Smogon has rewritten so much of the narrative of Gens 1 and 2, examining those metas through the biased lenses of Gen 4 and Gen 5 players and convinced people that things back in 1997 where very different from how they really were.
The ad hominems have already started to fly, so I'll probably duck out of the thread soon since I don't care to waste my time on angry, insulting strangers. Honestly, if the staff ends up listening to the angry mob and flat out bans either Swagger or Prankster, I think it will be a huge blow to Smogon's reputation. People are on edge these days regarding Smogon's incessant stream of bans -- it would have been better to ban ten things all at once than two or three at a time with no breaks in between -- and I don't think that banning a Gen II move or a Gen V ability from OU is going to earn them much respect. I can live with the likeliest ban to happen -- the ban on the specific combo of Swagger + Prankster -- but even that I don't think should be the direction the staff takes the community in. More and more, I feel like Smogon is trying to shove our adult-sized feet into our shoes from childhood. And they simply don't fit. Times change. Things change. What worked beautifully in 2007 may not work in 2014; and what was ignored in 2007 may be the belle of the ball in 2014. Do I want to find some move on my team to delete for Safeguard? No. Do I want to drop someone on my team to add a Safeguarder? No one listened to me when I complained about Stealth Rock in 2007. No one listened to me when I complained about Terrakion in 2011. What makes this situation any different?
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02-23-2014, 04:25 PM | #1252 |
a quick fly cuppa
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It's funny all this complaining about SwagPlay. Any competitive player worth their salt when faced with a Liepard shouldn't bother trying to outdamage it. No SwagPlay pokemon can win against the likes of Blissey.
With 0 attack IVs, Blissey hits a mighty 22 attack, which is used in Foul Play's damage calc. At +6, Blissey's confusion damage comes to a max of 3.3%...which is healed up by lefties. Meanwhile, STAB Foul Play does...17.3% max. That's a 9HKO factoring in lefties. Meanwhile Blissey can happily stall the prankster out of PP, healing with Wish when necessary, and with +6 FP being a 9HKO factoring in STAB, and 11.7% without, there's not much concern for the fat blob who thanks to paralysis and confusion hitting itself, means against said cat, Blissey is losing about 14% a turn factoring in lefties, which gives enough leeway to Wish up while saving PP in stepping on her own toes. |
02-23-2014, 04:33 PM | #1253 |
Getting married! :D
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Just jumping by here to say I agree with Talon for the full 100% percent. I already think Smogon is getting way to trigger happy when it comes to banning. And I have a feeling it's only the tip of the iceberg :/
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02-23-2014, 05:13 PM | #1254 |
Dance till you're dead~
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>Smogon talk about banning SwagPlay
... Ok this is why I don't comp. Here is a strategy that is pretty unique compared to the mindless SWORDSDANCESWEEP, but because it requires luck it must be banned!!11! What? Seriously, this was a thing last gen. Sableye, Murkrow and Liepard (iirc) could all run this. But they're banning it now why? Because they want all their precious birds and bugs and washing machines to run rampant? Urgh. Brb finding another move set for Prankster - oh wait it could be banned outright. Then again, we can't have Liepard dirtying up our brilliantly offensive OU now can we? /sarcasm
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02-23-2014, 06:16 PM | #1255 |
Ducks gonna duck
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,824
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They're debating... banning... Swagger.
... Fucking hell. How do you even take that seriously? |
02-23-2014, 07:01 PM | #1256 |
head head bitch
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,490
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Riolu made it in OU last gen with Mimic+Roar and entry hazards, and once it got going you had better hope that you had something with priority or else you would almost never win. I've faced my fair share of Liepard and Klefki, and they aren't all that difficult to deal with. Yes, they can take down physical sweepers easily, but as shown above even psychic typed special sweepers don't have too much of a problem. I just switch to Volcarona or Florges, and laugh at how little foul play does while I Bug Buzz/Fiery Dance/Moonblast/HP Fire away.
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02-23-2014, 07:08 PM | #1257 |
Aroma Lady
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,760
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Also safeguard is a move. Just use that to counter this stuff.
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02-23-2014, 07:35 PM | #1258 |
Double Dragon
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,776
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The deal with Prankster Parafusion + Foul Play being a big deal is that it takes skill out of the game and makes the game come down to luck. This discussion is happening for the same reason why Moody and OHKO moves are banned. I have no problem with the discussion, but I think outright banning anything is sort of dumb. I'm a fan Talon's suggestion of 3+ Prankster 'mons on a team being a no-no, but my gut feeling is that they'll probably ban Prankster, Swagger, and Foul Play on the same set.
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02-23-2014, 07:38 PM | #1259 |
Primordial Fishbeast
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>takes skill out of the game
...like so very many OU sweepers then! |
02-23-2014, 08:03 PM | #1260 |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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If this is really about an archetype that requires absolutely no skill to win, let's compare it real quick with Dragon Rulers (Yu-Gi-Oh!).
Parafusion Pranksters: While the team is fairly self-explanatory, you do need to have a decent battling sense to pull it off properly. Knowing when to go for paralysis (Thunder Wave), when to go for confusion (Swagger), and when to scout or shield yourself from harm (Substitute) isn't about luck: it's about skill. Skilled predictions that less skilled players will bungle. I'm not saying it's a whole lot of skill, but to act like there's absolutely zero skill involved is false. Against a team that is ill-prepared for Parafusion Pranksters, the win rate approaches 100%. Well sure, that certainly seems unfair! :o But against a team that is well-prepared for Parafusion Pranksters, the win rate approaches 0%. Well that's the opposite of concerning! Many ways to deal with the team exist. Some are crude but broad (e.g. Electric types' immunity to Thunder Wave). Others are narrow but highly effective (e.g. Safeguard). Some can easily be squeezed onto existing teams at the cost of only one creature slot or move slot (e.g. Safeguard). Is the team unfair? Well, fundamentally the team is unfair in that Pranksters are assured to go first ... but by that logic, the entire premise of priority is unfair! Ban priority! And from there, the entire premise of losing a speed war is unfair! Ban differences in speed! Fundamentally, Pokémon is already an unfair game: someone always gets to go first and someone else always has to take a punch to the face first before he gets to punch back. That's just how it is. Prankster cuts ahead in line ... but that's about all it does. And only for non-damaging attacks too. So you're only ever going to get statused or seeded or something before you get your chance at firing off a Safeguard to shield your team for the next five turns. Dragon Rulers: The deck plays itself. No, seriously: in my very first game with Dragon Rulers ever, even with me having no idea what was going on, I just followed the instructions on the cards -- the order hardly mattered, as proved by one point where Doppel chastised me for doing things in a suboptimal order -- and I crushed one of UPN's best player's best decks. The deck is fucking broken. And anyone can pilot it. Against a deck ill-prepared for Dragon Rulers, the deck's win rate speedily approaches 100%. And against a deck well-prepared for Dragon Rulers? The deck still enjoys an awesome win rate. (Armchair numbers: 80%! ) The worst odds you'll ever have with a Dragon Rulers deck ... is when you're facing a fellow Dragon Rulers deck, where the odds approach 50%. Gee. There are many ways to deal with Dragon Rulers ... but none of them are very effective. Even with a tricked-out deck, you're still hugely disadvantaged. And God have mercy on you when you go up against non-DR decks! Then you're sunk! My point is this: while I agree that Parafusion Pranksters is annoying and while I honestly wouldn't be all that sad to see it go, I do not believe that Smogon should ban it. Just because it annoys (say) 35% of players and curbstomps 40% of popular teams does not mean that it should be banned. If anything, this game sorely could use some fresh play styles to invigorate the fanbase, promote creativity in team building, and promote a diverse meta. If Parafusion Pranksters end up doing the opposite -- i.e. if everyone begins to either run them or their counters and that's it -- then they should be banned for these very same reasons. But if they diversify the meta, if they make it so that we see a triangle evolve where PFP beats hyper offense (HO), HO beats stall, and stall beats PFP, then it should totally stay. Dragon Rulers was banned because it was an autopilot deck that was nigh-on unstoppable even if you did gut your deck to be a dedicated anti-DR machine. I don't feel that Parafusion Pranksters is anywhere near on the same level of warranting a ban.
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02-23-2014, 08:10 PM | #1261 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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I think my YGO approximation of PFP is the best though. It's like Empty Jar. Empty Jar pushes one strategy, and has great potential. However, it has its counters and checks, and then Dark World. Plus its not consistent. It would be consistent with three Morphing Jar. Same with PFP. 4 or 5 PFP is just too consistent. 1 or 2? That's perfectly fine.
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02-23-2014, 08:25 PM | #1262 | |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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Quote:
I'm not familiar with Empty Jar, but I read your post on the Smogon forums and I got the general idea of what you were saying. The thing is, I may not much care for YGO ... but one thing I really, really envy about the YGO community, as a competitive Pokémon player, is just how diverse their metagame appears to me to be. Maybe that's because I'm a low-ranked player on Dueling Network, but I feel like I see all manner of decks on DN:
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02-23-2014, 08:57 PM | #1263 |
Dance till you're dead~
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Ghostrick, good sir - a deck I should really go update with the newer cards out
*Sorry for the off topic but the topic of banning Prankster SwagPlay annoys the stuffing out of me so...*
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02-23-2014, 10:03 PM | #1264 | |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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So apparently my views are so controversial that one of the moderators, Chou Toshio, went back through and deleted two of my seven first posts on Smogon. Copying and pasting their guts here so you can decide for yourself whether they needed to be deleted or not ...
Deleted Post #1: Spoiler: show Deleted Post #2: Spoiler: show The sad thing is that not only did two people like the first post before Chou Toshio deleted it -- but the reason he gave for deleting it was the condescending: Quote:
So the next time you want to say, "Man, so-and-so on UPN sure does abuse his position of power!", whether it's some LO in the ASB, whether it's some mod in FB, whether it's some personal friend of Kuno's, whomever: just remember that we don't make a habit of deleting people's posts and leaving insulting messages for them to read when they go back later wondering what happened to their post. Pretty sure that shit would not be tolerated here. But it's great to see that Smogon is such a warm and caring environment for opinions of all kinds.
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02-23-2014, 10:17 PM | #1265 |
Dance till you're dead~
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...
Fucking... what. What. What what what what what what *Whimsy has encountered an error and needs to close* Ok, cool, yep. You just carry on Smogon. Keep "Creating that Comp Environment" consisting of the same team of Talonflame/Rotom-W/Genesect/Whatever for the rest of Gen VI. Ignore us "10 Year Olds" who want just a splash, just a taste, just a little bit of diversity, creativity and, DARE I SAY, FUN when we start laddering. See, sometimes I think I should start learning a bit more about comp but then this reminds me why I like to stay ignorant of the metagame as a whole.
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02-23-2014, 10:50 PM | #1266 |
head head bitch
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,490
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That really doesn't make any sense. The thread shouldn't be labelled Discussion, but instead "Let's Talk about why we should ban Liepard and Company!"
Honestly, you were voicing your opinion, and a good one at that. Clearly your opinion was too good, though, since that mod couldn't have any prankster haters converted. This is exactly why I use my Platinum Team and everything like it. No one has any right to come at me and say "X is cheap and broken!" since only one pokemon on the team is OU, and that's Mamoswine (Froslass is BL though). The rest are newly added UU's (Porygon-Z and Togekiss) or RU (Tangrowth and Gallade). |
02-23-2014, 10:58 PM | #1267 |
Double Dragon
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,776
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Okay before we all get our panties in a twist, let's look at why Smogon bans things.
Too powerful: Pretty self-explanatory. Overcentralizing: So prevelant that your team has to prepare for it or you're going to have a bad time. Skill-related: An ideal metagame is one where the more skilled players wins more often. Taking things that rely way too much on luck go here, Moody, OHKO, Evasion Clause go here. Also Endless Battle since that's not skill-related. Talon, going off your first deleted post Reasons 1-4 have absolutely nothing to do with the above three things. Five and Six relate. Your second post had some more relevant points, but at the end of the day it sort of came down to "no don't ban Liepard's best moveset because feelings will be hurt." While Chou probably could've been a bit nicer with his message, he's not entirely wrong. Your other posts before concerning the banning of three or more Prankster Pokemon on the same team were good because they related to the luck vs. skill aspect of the banning philosophy. But the two deleted had reasons that would involve Smogon catering to certain playstyles/Pokemon just because you say so. Lol swampy you're acting like some kind of heinous crime has been committed. "Down with Smogon! They're not about having fun!" Well if you feel so strongly about the subject maybe you could actually present relevant arguments as to why Prankster Parafusion shouldn't be banned rather than bashing Smogon for deleting posts with arguments that have nothing to do with the reason for why things are banned. Yeesh. Basically, I'm sick of all the bitching and moaning that people do about Smogon when often the moaners are often in the wrong. EDIT: >Red There is no agenda to ban Prankster Parafusion. There are tons of posts in that thread, I'm sure that you can find some that are for keeping Klefki and friends around that have actual reasons that pertain to the banning philosophy. The OU Council really doesn't care about people's favorites. They care about creating the healthiest metagame, and that's why there's a community discussion going on about something that could be banned under the general classification of "luck over skill."
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02-23-2014, 11:35 PM | #1268 | |||
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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Quote:
I've already presented reasons in the Smogon thread why Parafusion Prankster should not be fully banned from the server. I've already explained why it would be a good idea to restrict the number you can run from six down to two. (Or, if they really want to be sticklers about it, one. One would be enough to satisfy most people.) Unfortunately, these ideas were not only ridiculed by fellow regular members but were dismissed out of hand by two moderators who backed each other up with the view that the best solution is to ban the combination of Prankster + Swagger. At this point, a suspect test is all but inevitable. All Haunter appears to be probing for is what exactly he should be suspect testing. Should it be Prankster + Swagger? Should it be Prankster + Thunder Wave? Should it be Swagger + Foul Play? Should it be Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play? What oh what should he be testing for? That seems to be the purpose behind this thread: polling the community to establish the most popular or best element to conduct the suspect test for. But the test itself seems a done deal. It seems to me that enough insiders are determined to see this gimmick eradicated from the meta that the suspect test will happen and, barring a miraculous vote afterwards, something is going to get banned. The only question is what. I think that if people want the ban to fail (for better or worse), it will be up to them to provide copious amounts of battle replays in order to persuade the voters and the staff alike that ___ shouldn't be banned. If people won't listen to reason, perhaps they will listen to cold, hard facts. If Parafusion Prankster teams can be easily circumnavigated with the appropriate measures, then this really will have been proven to be Stealth Rock 2.0 and it's time for the denizens of OU to man up or shut up. Vice versa, if the evidence points to Parafusion Prankster being broken, part of me will undoubtedly shout "GOOD! " and be glad to be rid of it, even though I have hardly encountered it for lack of OU laddering in recent months. Despite my devil's advocacy, I really am not a fan of annoying gimmicks like Parafusion Prankster, and while I will fight to preserve the mechanic for individual creatures like Liepard or Klefki, I have no qualms joining forces with the ban movement when it comes to seeing the all-Prankster teams go. Quote:
Quote:
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02-24-2014, 12:06 AM | #1269 | ||||
Double Dragon
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,776
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Quote:
Quote:
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02-24-2014, 03:50 AM | #1270 |
Dance till you're dead~
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>swampy
>Coherent arguments Yeah, I'm no good at those. Sorry Phoopes. Most of my "arguments" are based off my feelings at the time which was where my issue with Smogon came in - the rather... blunt way that some Smogon members basically shoot down ideas leaves a pretty bad taste in my mouth. I mean I can get where they are coming from but I guess I'm too... unwilling to be serious about the competitive meta and as such the serious nature of the users clashes with me. It's why I hate the Skype chat when it dissolves to comp discussion which ends with arguments about Talonflame/Genesect/Mega Luke etc which basically resort to "No this is bad and this is correct and you are bad for playing that when you should be playing this." That's not really my thing. I mean if you want me to try and make a valid argument about SwagPlay then I can't really bring anything new to the table - I mean my current argument for it is basically like thus: Looking back at Moody, the other luck based strategy, the issue was the ability itself, not the movepool. And it was more pronounced the minute it was released that it was easily exploited. Thus you could shove any old stalling moves onto the user and the game would then slow down to the coin flipping. Whereas the issue with SwagPlay isn't so much the ability (because this is perfectly possible with others, just... not as immediate) but the combination of moves. The problem is that this has been possible to run for a while now, and it's only just reached the limelight for banning. Was SwagPlay an issue through the previous parts of Gen V/VI? I don't really know, but it seems like it's suddenly become popular now. I guess this means that what started off as a gimmick has now become an actual threat. I mean, this does sound like it's becoming too good, however I'd be more inclined to ban the use of the two moves together, instead of banning them in conjunction with Prankster. Sure, Prankster gives you more reason to run them due to priority, but Prankster Swagger/Prankster Foul Play on their own seems a lot more bearable and beatable than the two together. And I'm pretty sure that's been done before. Also, from what I've heard, most teams these days are basically the same few pokemon stapled together. I guess that's what OU has always been, but I'm more for risky creativity than useful reliability so... Now, please note that this is coming from someone who doesn't really have much comp experience (and prefers stally gimmicks like SwagPlay even though he's never used it) and anything I say must be taken with a huge keg of salt. In fact, yeah this was a bad argument and I'm sorry for getting worked up, I was just venting really.
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Last edited by Whimsy; 02-24-2014 at 04:19 AM. |
02-24-2014, 06:53 AM | #1271 |
head head bitch
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,490
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Wasn't trying to pull together a conspiracy theory, I promise ^_^
I happen to like Liepard quite a bit, and used her last generation in most of my teams. I also use her in the ForFun metagame, and we have no problem with her their either. I'm just tired of things being banned left and right, though I can understand your logic in moving forward with this. I just don't want to see her banned outright. Klefki, awesome. Sableye, sure. I do not want a previously NU pokemon banned though, even without my liking towards Liepard. Sorry to sound like I was just throwing out insults without thinking. |
02-24-2014, 06:57 AM | #1272 |
Think ye can take me?
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Probably in the US
Posts: 2,524
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Swagger should only be banned in the Battle Maison. In Smogon, I don't think so just because I never saw anyone complain about it last generation with Liepard :/
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02-24-2014, 12:33 PM | #1273 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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I don't have a healthy opinion of Smogon mods anyways, especially since one encounter with one basically drove me away(bitch gave me a Kush snark PM x 1000 when I politely disagreed with her on one fucking point.) But if you guys don't want it banned, come up with a good reason not to ban it and be done with it.
There is a reason I compare it with Empty Jar. Yes, both EJ and PFP need skill to play, but they are solitaire strategies. They require little to no input from your opponent in order to work. I dislike those kind of strategies. They are only fun from the perspective of the person using them, that's the problem. (I was actually going to suggest a Foul Play + Swagger ban though, but it seems it came up. People are dumb anyways and can't see that Foul Play is what's breaking the set, but isn't broken itself.)
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02-24-2014, 12:59 PM | #1274 |
Barghest Barghest Barghe-
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Double post because yeah.
IS THAT SOME MEGA LATIAS I SEE THAR?????? I was very surprised by this. From the info we know, it likely won't be as powerful as Soul Dew Lati@s, and its kinda butt-ugly too, but it gives Latias and Latios a nice boost. This match goes from terrible hax on my end and a potential Delphox sweep to me completely turning it around. I'M not even sure how it happened. O.o
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Last edited by Emi; 02-24-2014 at 01:28 PM. |
02-24-2014, 01:47 PM | #1275 |
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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Wrote up a post. Don't want it to go to waste but also don't want to post it on Smogon only for some asshole to delete it again or for people to ridicule it and continue to witch hunt for Liepard. (I don't even know why I'm defending this creature so much when I really don't care for it! ^^; I guess it just bugs me to see the lynch mob persecuting the wrong culprit.)
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Prankster Liepard @ Swagger | Foul Play | Thunder Wave | Substitute has been a fixture of the Random Battle circuit for a long time now. Few have ever felt that she is broken there and needs to be banned. And keep in mind that this is a format where:
It is therefore hard to believe that so many OU players, many of them veteran members of the community, are convinced that the problem is with this one moveset rather than with the de facto dodging of Species Clause. That's really what Parafusion Prankster teams boil down to: abusing Smogon's narrowly-defined Species Clause by taking advantage of the functional clones that Game Freak has produced across different species over the past two generations. No one complained about the moveset in Gen 5, I suspect, largely because few people ran teams of 3+ Parafusion Prankster Pokémon in Gen 5. It wasn't unheard of, but it wasn't remotely common either. The problem has become a nuisance now not because the moveset has suddenly transformed from legit to OP -- it hasn't -- but because players have recognized how easy it is to copy+paste the moveset three, four, six times over and win games with it. We can philosophize about "skill vs. luck" and "fair play" until all sides are blue in the face, but at the end of the day I don't think anyone would be taken seriously if they tried to argue that a Swagplay Liepard or a Swagplay Murkrow, all by itself, was a nigh-unstoppable force devastating OU. The problem isn't the set: it's the number of times the set can be legally run on one team. While dismantling the moveset is certainly one way to address the immediate problem of Swagplay abuse, I worry that this is only a temporary solution to a greater problem. I worry that in several months' time the community is going to be right back here again, discussing ban proposals for other Prankster-based strategies which rely on an element of chance. Prankster + Substitute + Thunder Wave, Prankster + Copycat w/ Roar, etc. The thing is, players adapt. If you ban Swagplay, they're not going to quit taking advantage of the Prankster movesets that so many in this thread seem to despise. They'll simply move from Plan A to slightly inferior Plan B. As has been pointed out many times, the same luck-based criticisms that apply to strategic use of confusion apply to strategic use of paralysis and sleep as well. Paralysis has the added bonus of reducing the affected Pokémon's speed, but we've all known battles where we inflicted paralysis not for the speed drop but instead 1) for the chance that our opponent would not get to act that turn or 2) for the chance that we phaze our opponent out precisely because we make him worry too much about #1. Likewise, when you put an enemy Pokémon to sleep and your opponent chooses to leave it on the battlefield, you're each gambling on a chance: he hopes to wake up in the next two turns while you hope he stays asleep for at least two turns. I bring these examples up to illustrate that if you ban Prankster + Swagger, people will simply keep on using Prankster in conjunction with other moves that incapacitate the opponent and rely on chance. If you don't hold these combinations to be broken all by themselves, then I ask how you can hold Prankster + Swagger all by itself to be broken. (If the problem is specifically with Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play, then ban all three together. Don't crudely ban incomplete combinations of two and set poor precedents for future disgruntled battlers to point to when they want to push for other bans of elements of chance.) If you hold them to be broken when they appear three, four, six times on the same team, then you're not really upset with the movesets themselves: you're upset with people effectively dodging the limitations imposed by Species Clause, and thus the ban you're pushing for should match what you really want. ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Reasons not posting this on Smogon:
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