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Old 03-12-2016, 03:28 PM   #126
Aposteriori
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@Apost: I think it's also important to add that transgenderism comes in shades aplenty. There is no one true formula. Some folks simply present, some go through with hormones but not surgery, some get surgery to complete the nine yards. I'd ideally fall into the third group if I had my way with things, but that wouldn't be able to happen for a long time due to my parents' (my mom's more so) rigidity on the matter. So essentially it is very important to realize that gender does not go by the body. The problem is we allowed ourselves as a society to use sex and gender interchangeably, mostly the latter being used as a euphemistic term for the former.
In my messages, nothing implies that gender is body. Gender, like I did express is identity. We don't argue gender, we argue how a person feels they want to identify, and you are right on the money that there are different varying degrees of transgenderism.

Caitlyn Jenner for one does not represent the trans community a whole, and I hope the message is not distorted that you must transition into femininity to be considered a woman. Like plenty have pointed out, access to care, either hormonal or surgical, are not readily accessibly to most of the trans community since they cannot afford it.
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Old 03-12-2016, 04:44 PM   #127
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I'm sitting here dumbfounded that Aposteriori can basically just waltz in here and slaughter everything pretty accurately and eloquently in ways I'd never be able to while also teaching me new things I hadn't considered or known before. I'm just going to shut up and watch now.

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Old 03-12-2016, 07:42 PM   #128
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  • On the one hand you have individuals who were, from birth, raised as the wrong gender due to their phenotype. In plain English: the baby had a penis, the baby was raised as a boy, but it was clear even in youth that the boy was rather more like a girl and by adolescence it became very clear that the teenage boy was actually a teenage girl with a teenage girl's brain trapped inside of a teenage boy's body.
I have an article on this! This is an example of an intersex person who is biologically a male, but due to under production of dihydrotestoterone during fetal development because of a disfunctional enzyme, alpha-5-reductase, their external genitalia looks like a pseudovagina. Later, during puberty they end up developing a micro penis because they did not get the exposure during fetal development, but testosterone levels do increase, thus genitalia becomes visible, and even the pre-existing testicles exist.

These individuals, for example, are raised as females because cytogenetic testing is not readily accessible in Dominican Republic, where I currently reside at. This specifically aids in the explanation that nurture will not determine sexual orientation as they themselves had the notion of being percieved female, many (I would say close to none) transition to female, which leads to the a solid conclusion that nature influences more on sexual orientation than nurture. Very facinating, and a very interesting subject to talk about medically and socially.
In Dominican Republic the transition from "female to male" is celebrated, and for the most part accepted. In Papua New Guinea it is quite the opposite, and these males are rejected or seen as outcasts. I have more on the subject if you are interested.

Edit: The plight of LGB is not the necessarily the same for T or for I. They have different struggles, and what unifies them is the need for visibility, acceptance, and understanding.

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Old 05-04-2016, 07:15 PM   #129
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North Carolina gets told just so politely, "No, you cannot do this. Stop doing this."
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Old 05-04-2016, 07:28 PM   #130
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Man it's fun when the government threatens to sue itself.
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Old 05-04-2016, 09:08 PM   #131
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They gave him a deadline to fix it, and we all know how that will end: "The evil liberals are trying to take away our CHRISTIAN VALUES! They are VIOLATING our RELIGIOUS RIGHTS! We are small compared to the federal government but WE WILL NOT GIVE INTO EVIL no matter what! OBAMA IS THE ANTI-CHRIST!"

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Old 05-04-2016, 09:49 PM   #132
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And as usual, "Christian" conservatives band together to cry about how their "right" to trample on others' rights is being taken away when they never had it in the first place. How entirely unsurprising.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:44 AM   #133
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So far the church reactions to this law have been fairly strongly opposed to it and want it repealed.

In my home state we recently passed some ordinances about transgender students or teachers and it slid in easily. The only people who were opposed were actually members of clubs and organizations that were classified as hate groups by the SPLC.
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Old 05-06-2016, 03:19 PM   #134
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Well yes note my use of quotes around Christians in that post. While standar written English says using them to convey sarcasm is improper, I learned the rules, thus I can break them.

So, picked up The Week this Wednesday, looked in the "Only in America" box...
Immediately greeted by story of the head of some evangelical organization of some kind (Liberty Counsel, I think?) proclaiming that she'd be bringing a gun into Target's bathrooms to "defend herself" against trans women.

It's stuff like this that gets me really disaffected with Christians in general, because apparently to some of them your existing contrary to their belief system temporarily excuses them from the Fifth Commandment.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:09 PM   #135
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So, I feel the need to make a 3-year later follow up post to this, because looking back, I see pretty clearly that the way I worded my original statement was entirely counter to how I've always felt, and is a misrepresentation of my opinions and beliefs. Bad enough to where I want to clear up my feelings on this entire topic.

I pretty strongly regret the wording "real man", as I have always considered transex men just as much men as non-transex men. My comment was meant to talk specifically about someone who is biologically a man that identifies with the female gender, and I was not considering the transex discussion (I incorrectly used the word transgender instead of transex in my quote). The entire point I was attempting, and looking back on it, clearly failing at portraying, is that I make a separation between biological sex and gender identity. This shouldn't really come as a surprise to anyone that has known me, but again, in hindsight, my wording was bad enough that I feel I should clarify for the future readers. I usually identify people using the system "Born X1 Sex, Y1 gender; trans X2 Sex, trans Y2 gender".

Anyways, in more relevant discussions, I probably still wouldn't use a unisex bathroom. Although I do support this as something we should start making more common.
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:31 PM   #136
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Funny that you bring this thread up Alto because I had some thoughts on the lawn mower today about North Carolina's HB2-specifically a realization that if the entire point is to "keep men out of women's restrooms," it's actually counterproductive in doing so. The thing is that since it forces any trans person to use their gender assigned at birth, even the best-passing of transgender men are by law required to use the women's restroom (because that's how they were born). Of course, once you realize a particular side effect of this, you start to see the gaping loophole: this actively sets a precedent for people with distinctly masculine appearances going to the women's bathroom. In other words, if anyone is saying "I'd be trans to get a peek at some girls" and thinking about it in terms of playing MtF, they're doing it wrong-it would be far easier for them to "pass" as a FtM person. In other words, HB2 essentially allows any guy who wants to play trans to get into a girl's bathroom to "work smart, not hard" at doing so. The best part of it is that the governor can't plug this loophole and tell trans men to go to the guy's room without telling trans women to go to the girls room-the entire thing they're fighting against-because to do so would be objectively sexist as fuck and warrant an undeniable Title IX objection from the justice department.
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Old 06-05-2016, 01:02 AM   #137
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You'll have to forgive my uneducated, heathen ass, but why is the whole restroom thing an issue? It's a place where you poop and piss, not flaunt your sexual or gender preference. I was of the impression people got along just fine using restrooms before this whole restroom issue popped up in the media.
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Old 06-05-2016, 01:14 AM   #138
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Apparently people are scared of them/their kids being molested by a man "pretending" to be a woman in the bathroom. Irrational people gon irrational. By that logic clergy should be banned from all public bathrooms.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:56 AM   #139
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That's more like the whole basis of homophobia, too. People are afraid of gay men because they're afraid of gay rape, forgetting that rape is a crime no matter if it's a straight or gay person perpetuating it. I think there's more tolerance toward lesbians just because they're perceived as less dangerous than a man.

I don't think that's an issue specific to homophobia alone, though. The racial profiling and NSA spying illustrate that people are more afraid of being attacked/killed than they are of upholding America's founding ideologies.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:04 AM   #140
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Quite frankly, America needs to get its head out of the gutter. Because our society seems to equate everything that involves genitals to being super sexual. This is why nudity is so taboo a vast majority of places here (and a lot of other places, too, but America's really bad about it). And, especially, nothing seems to rattle Republicans (as a party platform, not every Repub) quite so much as what people do with their "naughty bits". So, to them, having what they stubbornly refuse to see as women (due to being born with male sex organs), in a close vicinity with "actual" women, means in their heads, they see a man and woman each in a level of undress in close proximity. It's pretty dumb, since transwomen are every bit as much women, and there's a lot of transwomen and transmen that can pass really, really well, which just highlights the absurdity of people being against transfolk using the right bathroom for their gender identity. Someone like Buck Angel would turn more than a few heads walking into the women's room. And it can't just be decided by how well someone passes, because there's a whole spectrum in who knows how many different directions of gender expression. Some people are very fluid, so they don't dedicate very much of their time making sure they can pass as one gender because sometimes they're not that gender. And some folks are poor (or even just in the center of middle class and below) and can't afford the costly amounts it takes to pass. And then there's the issue of where to draw the line. How would passing be defined? Where's the cutoff, and why? And overall, why can some people not just accept that gender and sex are two separate things?

But yeah, the bathroom issue is really something that was almost a non-issue before, and really should be a non-issue now. Just because you can't wrap your head around what someone else is doing with their own genitals does not mean they're a pervert, and even if they are, that most definitely does not make them a rapist. And the logic there is flawed, too. Because they're apparently scared of this imaginary bogeyman (not a new concept for them) raping their daughters, so they want to move them to where their sons are instead. And also the fact that rape is already illegal. If someone is going to ignore a law that severe, they're probably not going to be afraid of a small potatoes law about which restroom to use.

Nudity is not bad, wrong, or overtly sexual, by nature. Kind of the default state for humanity. The real perverts aren't the ones who feel comfortable in a level of undress while not being sexual with it, they're the ones actually going down the perverted route and seeing it as only able to be sexual.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:08 PM   #141
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So I was talking with my mom about this and she brought up a good point: she couldn't be in a unisex bathroom or have men going into the bathroom with here. She was a victim of traumatic sexual abuse as a child and older and the idea of being unclothed (even only partially) and there being men around her gives her massive anxiety and other issues.

I'm sure she's not the only one either. So I think that a 3 bathroom policy is easily the best, and I'm finding myself not in agreement with Obama's idea.
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Old 06-05-2016, 10:58 PM   #142
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I don't see how a unisex bathroom would be a problem, it would literally be completely separate stalls. At least that's how it's implemented most places; I know that Americans have ridiculously huge gaps between stalls in "normal" bathrooms so.
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:06 AM   #143
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So I was talking with my mom about this and she brought up a good point: she couldn't be in a unisex bathroom or have men going into the bathroom with here. She was a victim of traumatic sexual abuse as a child and older and the idea of being unclothed (even only partially) and there being men around her gives her massive anxiety and other issues.

I'm sure she's not the only one either. So I think that a 3 bathroom policy is easily the best, and I'm finding myself not in agreement with Obama's idea.
Do we then make additional separate bathrooms for people whose abusers were the same gender as them? Or allow men who were abused by men to use the womens bathroom instead (and vice versa for women who were abused by women)?
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:47 AM   #144
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That's (unfortunately) a much harder group to deal with, as there's not much outside of constant bathroom policing (which is probably unfeasible in the long run and not to mention prone to problems) that's going to help. There's not really one idea that's going to fix everything and help everybody; every solution manages to piss someone off or leave people like my mother fucked. That's just how it is. And again, really not fond of bathroom passes or bathroom police. I feel like that's just not going to work.

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I don't see how a unisex bathroom would be a problem, it would literally be completely separate stalls. At least that's how it's implemented most places; I know that Americans have ridiculously huge gaps between stalls in "normal" bathrooms so.
If you were to take me into a barren room, turn the lights off, and shut and lock the door, I'd bet you $100 that you'd find me in a corner in the fetal position staring at the door. That's just anxiety.
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Old 06-06-2016, 08:01 AM   #145
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I really have to say that if you have such a high level of anxiety/PTSD/etc that you cannot go into a unisex bathroom, I think it's unreasonable to expect society to provide solutions that complicate every public space. Also, I don't see where you got turning the lights off and/or someone else shutting and locking the door.
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Old 06-06-2016, 08:06 AM   #146
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That was more providing an example of how such things can fly in the face of logic. I already did say she wasn't going to be naked in front of anybody to her, but she also already knows that.

Also its not just for these people, it also helps the issue as a whole (isn't a complete fix obviously, but it helps). Let's be honest here; if the South could have segregated bathrooms with little issue I think we can make do with an extra unisex one.
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Old 06-06-2016, 02:47 PM   #147
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I think it's unreasonable to expect society to provide solutions that complicate every public space.
Rangeet agrees with Truuuuump rangeet agrees with Truuuump
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Old 06-06-2016, 03:04 PM   #148
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:19 PM   #149
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This whole bathroom thing is complete crap. There are men out there who would identify as women supposedly, and then go into their bathrooms just to abuse young girls like me. This is what bothers me. I go to a public school and I have no idea what could happen.
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:32 PM   #150
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This whole bathroom thing is complete crap. There are men out there who would identify as women supposedly, and then go into their bathrooms just to abuse young girls like me. This is what bothers me. I go to a public school and I have no idea what could happen.
1) How many incidents have there been of men identifying as women "just to abuse young girls"?

2) Would you rather this guy (who was assigned female at birth) walk into your bathroom, then?

3) If someone is willing to break all the laws involving molesting women, you really think they would be so scared about intentionally going into a bathroom?

4) I realise Debate topics can be personal for people. But you still cannot expect to come into the topic and post without having read a single post beforehand.
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