North Korea has gone full retard

[deoxys]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...9260BR20130307

From reddit (minus appropriate links, because lazy, click link for all of these):

UN Security Council has passed the new sanctions. NYTimes: New Sanctions Imposed on North Korea as it Warns of Pre-emptive Nuclear Attack

Telegraph UK Video: North Korean Foreign Ministry spokesman, "Second Korean War is Unavoidable" (in Korean with English subtitles)

Fox News: North Korea vows nuclear attack on US, saying Washington will be 'engulfed in a sea of fire'

RT: NKorea Foreign Ministry spokesman, "Since the United States is about to ignite a nuclear war, we will be exercising our right to a preemptive nuclear attack against the headquarters of the aggressor in order to protect our supreme interest."

NYTimes: North Korea Threatens to Attack U.S. With ‘Lighter and Smaller Nukes’

NYTimes: NKorea warns pre-emptive attack; UN sanctions will be an "act of war"

AP: Furious over sanctions, North Korea vows to to nuke US

Reuters: North Korea says to exercise right to preemptive nuclear attack against U.S.

Reuters: North Korea to start state-wide military drills

BBC: North Korea holds drills while UN Security Council set to vote on tougher sanctions today (Thursday)

NYTimes (yesterday): South Korea pushes back, "hinting at an attack on North Korean headquarters"



The proposed sanctions North Korea called an "act of war" (summarized from here ), which the Security Council passed a few hours later:

Ban on exporting luxury goods to North Korea (intended to target goods used by North Korea's elite)

Freeze on all North Korean money thought to be connected to missile programs

Ban on financial support for anything related to missile programs

Travel sanctions that would effectively force out all expats working for North Korean ventures

All North Korean cargo must be inspected

3 arms dealers and 2 international organizations have been specifically targeted and sanctioned



Infograph:

Spoiler: show

So... what do? I'm of the opinion that if you threaten to fucking nuke someone, you need to be punched in the face at the very least, even if you are a whiny, entitled, bratty child. Sanctions aren't going to do shit.

[Kindrindra]

Annoying.

[Talon87]

I will reserve further comment than what follows until we learn more in the coming days. Suffice to say for now, while excerpts such as this do sound pretty damn worrisome:

"(North Korea will) exercise its right to launch preemptive nuclear strike against invaders' stronghold. (Key Resolve/Foal Eagle ) is an exercise of launching nuclear war against North Korea that aims for preemptive strike. Gone are the chances to resolve this by diplomatic means, but only military response remains."

they don't sound that different from the very same speech Bush & Powell gave to the United Nations as our justification for invading Iraq. "Preemptive strike" and all that, "hit them first before they can hit us."

Also, this bears emphasizing:

Some of you have rightly pointed out that the sources have all relied upon translations into English. Could this have been another scandalous mistranslation, much like Ahmadinejad's infamous remarks on Israel? A growing consensus seems to indicate that North Korea's message was very strongly worded and threatening -- but less subjective in tone. Overall, it could be summarized that the English-language press has accurately paraphrased the Foreign Ministry, but did not perfectly capture its message.

NPR offers:

"The Korean-language version suggested that the North would only carry out such a strike against "invaders," meaning only if another nation breached its borders. But the English-language version of the statement says the strike will be carried out against "aggressors," a more subjective term.

"'So there's some nuance in there,' said Dan Pinkston, a Seoul-based security expert for the International Crisis Group. 'It's not like a barge is going to float up the Potomac and a nuke will go off. Still, it's problematic. . . . This says something about their doctrine with nuclear weapons. It says, 'If we're invaded with conventional weapons, we will respond with nuclear strikes.' "

This makes it sound like they're just asserting their position, to their people, as a world power which stands shoulder to shoulder along with others like the US and China.

Still, some of the other translations sure do make it sound like the shit may have finally hit and clogged up the fan.

Anyway, I can't really say anything more than this until we find out more over the coming days or weeks. Like your sources say, this could just be another case of boastful rhetoric, or it could be a hit-you-over-the-head-with-a-club obvious declaration of war. One would think it's mostly hollow rhetoric when the Koreans haven't demonstrated the capability to strike targets in North America using long-range ballistic missiles ... but that's probably little comfort to South Korea or to Japan.

[deoxys]

Right, a lot of people (myself included) are obviously worried about the US being hit, and even if they are nukes with the blast radius of a few city blocks, they're still damn nukes at the end of the day. However, as you said, South Korea and Japan are the ones to be a lot more worried about considering they're only a stone's throw away. They basically have a gun pointed at Seoul's head, and even if they attacked them with mini-nukes, that would still be devastating.

What the fuck is NK thinking? Is it, like you say, perhaps some really stupid roundabout way of trying to puff their chest and make them look like a world power?

[Toyo]

Originally Posted by deoxys

RT: NKorea Foreign Ministry spokesman, "Since the United States is about to ignite a nuclear war, we will be exercising our right to a preemptive nuclear attack against the headquarters of the aggressor in order to protect our supreme interest."

Reuters: North Korea says to exercise right to preemptive nuclear attack against U.S.

At what point did the US even give the slightest hint that they were about to start dropping nukes?

[Princess Ana]

Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131

At what point did the US even give the slightest hint that they were about to start dropping nukes?

That is NK's interpretation of the military things we have been doing in SK. A wrong interpretation(and they probably know it too), but one that gives reason to......well, no but you get the point.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by deoxys

Right, a lot of people (myself included) are obviously worried about the US being hit, and even if they are nukes with the blast radius of a few city blocks, they're still damn nukes at the end of the day. However, as you said, South Korea and Japan are the ones to be a lot more worried about considering they're only a stone's throw away. They basically have a gun pointed at Seoul's head, and even if they attacked them with mini-nukes, that would still be devastating.

From what I understand, North Korea has not demonstrated the ability to reach Hawaii with a missile, much less the continental United States, much less Washington, D.C.

From what I understand, they only just, in the last decade, achieved the ability to precision-strike Toyko. (The ability to reach as far east as Tokyo, but not with any degree of precision, was achieved in the 1990s, from what I can find online. I can't seem to find any evidence of them being able to precision-strike Tokyo, though I could've sworn I heard this in the mid-to-late 2000s.)

So in terms of their practical ability to strike North American cities, it's probably very close to 0%.

Originally Posted by deoxys

What the fuck is NK thinking? Is it, like you say, perhaps some really stupid roundabout way of trying to puff their chest and make them look like a world power?

Well, I dunno how much you paid attention to world politics in the '90s and '00s, but this isn't exactly new for North Korea. What is new are two things:

1. the frequency of said chest-puffings, which has been rather high in recent years, particularly in the last year. It was less than a month ago that they successfully detonated a nuclear-grade weapon underground (detected as an earthquake with magnitude 4.9 to 5.1; no nuclear radiation spikes detected in association with it, prompting questions as to whether it was a nuclear weapon or whether it instead was a conventional weapon with comparable power). So like ... they're in the news a lot, whether it's firing missiles out towards the Sea of Japan / western Pacific, whether it's saber-rattling with the West, or whether it's nuclear testing like this.
2. the intensity of the rhetoric here. I mean ... this falls just short of a declaration of war, and only because it's saying "We will preemptively nuke you should we discover you plan to attack us" rather than "We are about to nuke you now. As a preemptive strike. Just thought you should know."

Take away those two things, and this story could easily, easily, easily be forgotten in just a matter of weeks, left to clump together with all of the other "North Korea threatens the West" stories of the past fifty years.

[deoxys]

I'm well aware of how loudly they have screamed and shouted the past two decades, but this time seems so much... more serious. Especially given that they have been make more threats the past few months than usual, combined with their leaked propo video with the Modern Warfare 3 footage and the nucler test a few weeks ago.

And yeah, while they don't have the most accurate history, but you're right, they basically have Japan and SK hostage.

[Lady Kuno]

The regime change is the thing here. Chubby-chan needs to toss his weight around to prove to the OG that he's a big deal.

[Mercutio]

I wouldn't worry too much at this point in time, especially if you aren't living in South East Asia.

Great thread title.

[Tyranidos]

They want the US + allies to destroy and then rebuild them.

[Concept]

North Korea's military command said it would end that armistice on 11 March, threatening "surgical strikes" on its southern neighbour and the use of a "precision nuclear striking tool" in response to the sanctions and ongoing South Korea-US military drills.

Source: BBC News. Guess in four days they'll either say "the armistace is off now" or not and how seriously or not the situation is to be taken will become clearer.

[Loki]

Oh man. This is so going to ruin GSL Season 2.

[Doppleganger]

Chubby-chan should stop watching anime and realize he left the oven on!

[Tyranidos]

I blame this entire thing on Dennis Rodman.

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Tyranidos

I blame this entire thing on Dennis Rodman.

The emphatic answer to that question is, "YES!"

[Amras.MG]

Originally Posted by Tyranidos

They want the US + allies to destroy and then rebuild them.

Ahahahaha dammit Tdos you keep winning threads.

I think Kuno's on the money, considering the regime change. That said, if NK did try to attack any of its neighbors, they would be pulverized quickly, especially since China is becoming disillusioned with them.

[deoxys]

North Korea should quite honestly be liberated from the nation-wide Auschwitz-esque conditions a lot of its citizens live in, the citizens up north should be reunited with their separated families in the south, and Korea should become one nation again.

But hey, pigs can't fly unless you throw bacon out the window.

[Loki]

Originally Posted by deoxys

North Korea should quite honestly be liberated from the nation-wide Auschwitz-esque conditions a lot of its citizens live in, the citizens up north should be reunited with their separated families in the south, and Korea should become one nation again.

But hey, pigs can't fly unless you throw bacon out the window.

Yeah. That's what we need. More war. This time with a possible nuclear power.

[deoxys]

I didn't suggest war, though I suppose it would be necessary for liberation to occur... meh. I don't want a war either. I hate war.

I was only trying to state that the people should be liberated.

I was reading about the living conditions there from NK refugees who managed to escape out of the country. Their accounts of what it was like were horrifying, complete with sketched depictions and told stories of first hand accounts of what they saw.

Warning: The following links are potentially scarring / NSFW / NSFL (Not Safe For Life), viewer discretion advised

Spoiler: show

Http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com/2...-deathcamp.htm

http://imgur.com/a/648Mv

www.northkoreanrefugees.com/2007-09-atbirth.htm

[Green Zubat]

Originally Posted by Raptor Jesus

Yeah. That's what we need. More war. This time with a possible nuclear power.

Right, because allowing millions of people to go on suffering through that Orwellian nightmare we call North Korea is the much better option.

Honestly, it wouldn't be war at this point--it'd be euthanasia.

[Rangeet]

Innocent people of South Korea would most definitely be hurt in the fallout. NK has a metric fuckton of artillery aimed at Seoul.

[deh74]

Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper

Innocent people of South Korea would most definitely be hurt in the fallout. NK has a metric fuckton of artillery aimed at Seoul.

Most of the norths Seoul arsenal isn't even able to hit Seoul city center maybe the outskirts but that's it. But this point is moot since the USA wouldn't nuke north Korea unless they nuked the south or something, out we wish top ensue international sanctions and becoming even more of an international pariah

[deoxys]

Originally Posted by deh74

Most of the norths Seoul arsenal isn't even able to hit Seoul city center maybe the outskirts but that's it. But this point is moot since the USA wouldn't nuke north Korea unless they nuked the south or something, out we wish top ensue international sanctions and becoming even more of an international pariah

I think you underestimate NK's range, for one, and two, the US would most definitely not use nukes against NK even in the event that NK did, for several reasons, including the resulting fallout and its effect of Japan and SK. More than likely the US would just carpet bomb them to death.


Beginning to think this might be a better discussion for the debate forum, I dunno.

[Amras.MG]

Originally Posted by deoxys

Beginning to think this might be a better discussion for the debate forum, I dunno.

When people start talking about how the US should kill NK, or when people start equating war with euthanasia, that's when everything goes to shit and thus must be sent to debate.

However, I think your observations concerning the frequency and intensity of rhetoric over the last couple months isn't really a debate issue, more a "yes yes I see that, good point deoxys, it confirmed what I was thinking *brofist*" moment.