Batman: the Animated Series

[Loki]

Yeah. Fucking with timelines is bad news. Just look at how badly the Flash fucked everything up in Flashpoint.

Spoiler: show

Flash goes back in time to save his mom. This somehow randomly causes Bruce Wayne to be shot instead of his parents and his mom goes insane and becomes the Joker while his dad does insane and becomes Batman. Superman is captured pretty much right upon landing and never becomes Superman. Wonder Woman and the Amazons take over the British Isles. Aquaman conquers Europe for the Atlanteans. And a ton of bullshit which has absolutely nothing to do with the Flash or his mom being alive is completely changed.

TIME TRAVEL FUCKS UP EVERYTHING.

[Mercutio]

I really liked the Flashpoint thing and the canonical explanation of the issues you have. Particularly like the Batman/Joker angle.

[lilboocorsola]

Yeah okay I see your point. I did read/watch clips from the Flashpoint thing, that was pretty interesting, if fucked up.

Still, doesn't change the fridge horror of Static, a young superhero in his own right, giving Robin that kind of encouragement when he comes close to finding out the truth of what happens. It's like the writers included that first line just to rub salt in the wound.

(seriously the only useful advice he can offer at the end is telling Gear to lay off the chili cheese fries smh)

On a related note Static and Flash are probably two of my other favorite superheroes. I liked the Static Shock show for tackling a lot of heavy real-life issues like gun violence and racism even though it could be preachy at times. And Flash is just funny.

[Loki]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

I really liked the Flashpoint thing and the canonical explanation of the issues you have. Particularly like the Batman/Joker angle.

Oh don't get me wrong. The setting wasn't bad, it just had no correlation between the cause and effects. It's like saying I vaccinated a child for polio and he will now have autism.

Originally Posted by lbc

On a related note Static and Flash are probably two of my other favorite superheroes. I liked the Static Shock show for tackling a lot of heavy real-life issues like gun violence and racism even though it could be preachy at times.

Sadly DC has no talent writing Static Shock after New 52.

[Mercutio]

Timeboom!

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Loki

Oh don't get me wrong. The setting wasn't bad, it just had no correlation between the cause and effects. It's like saying I vaccinated a child for polio and he will now have autism.

Originally Posted by Mercutio

Timeboom!

BOOM THE END *shot*

Yeah I actually went and watched The Flashpoint Paradox film in full as a result of this discussion. The explanation for how the singular event caused things to change even before it happened was kinda handwavey, but meh. Time travel is always a wonky subject. (Don't know if the explanation was any different in the comics either, as the story was clearly condensed.)

On the subject of child endangerment though, those poor Shazam kids. ;;

I also saw the second half of The Dark Knight Returns. (Skipped the first one since I wanted to get straight to Joker murdering action. *shot* Will probably circle back to Part 1 at some point.) Dem Alfred feels at the end. (The man is so awesome he seriously needs more love. I saw someone suggest he be called "The Snark Knight", and I would read the shit out of that series.)

...Starting to notice a pattern with how Batman ends his career in various media, as well as ways for Joker to escape his confinement. (Note to self: Never give Joker anything to drink in a breakable glass.)

Originally Posted by Loki

Sadly DC has no talent writing Static Shock after New 52.

(Random: *has had the Static Shock OP stuck in her head* woop woop)

That's a shame. I've heard a lot of complaints about DC since the reboot, which is another reason why I'm hesitant to actually broach the mainstream comics.

Virgil lost an arm though? Damn, poor kid.... Oh nevermind apparently it snaps back. Ha, comic book logic. Piggybacking off Dopple's topic in the Debate forum though, I think it's sadder when someone is permanently dehumanized/disfigured as opposed to killed, especially in the superhero world where death is pretty cheap and often reversible. That's why I find Tim's torture by the Joker in RotJ even more horrendous than what happened to Jason... With Barbara being paralyzed in The Killing Joke, and Grayson also losing an eye to the "Joker" (lol what is continuity) in the Batman Beyond comics, seems like the best way to put a hero down is by crippling them in some manner rather than outright killing them. *shot*

Changing gears, I finally found the Gotham Adventures issue I was missing, and I kinda wanted to bring it up mostly because its cover reminds me of this amusing article I read recently, again poking fun at the ridiculousness of Robin as a child sidekick - specifically his costume. I like how this contrasts by having Batman in full protective mode in front of Robin. (There's another issue where Batman shields Robin from a bullet, and gives the crook an angry Papa Wolf glare, making the shooter apologize for not knowing a child was there.)

Also it starts off with Robin showing off and looking so cool surfing on cables but Batman admonishes him for taking risks hrnghg. Plus he's always balancing on things in the background of the Batcave he was so adorable and proud of himself whyyy

*cough*

On another note, I didn't know what "growing pains" actually meant until I looked it up. The fact it's seen as a "rite of passage, a sign of growing up" gives me new respect for the title as well as the association with limbs since

Spoiler: show

Annie was an extension of Clayface.

For the record I find the concept behind that really silly but the emotional drama was well done. TNBA may have had dumb plot premises/shoddy execution but there were some gems as well.

[lilboocorsola]

Random thoughts after tonight's streaming of TNBA (been semi-following a DCAUthon on tumblr, although I've seen some of the eps on my own already it's nice to discover new things upon rewatching; unfortunately I missed most of the original BTAS screening so I still need to catch up on those at some point):

Roxy is hot. I'd like to ride her rocket. *shot*

I really dislike Catwoman. (And it seems I'm not alone.)

Am I the only one who likes Mulletwing? (Better than disco collar design at least.)

The way Robin says "It's a muhnkey!" is frickin' adorable.

Serious!Batman looming over Dick when he's reminiscing on family photos from his circus days makes me sad. Enough of your "professional" BS, Bruce. This is why he left you in the first place.

There are a lot of animal-themed eps.

The campy style shift of the first story in "Legends of the Dark Knight" was pretty amusing. (There was one like that in the tie-in comics too, with a considerably sadder ending.) Joker's puns were so painful they hurt. And the "Roll, Robin!" line made me laugh out loud.

It's ironic I just finished watching The Dark Knight Returns since I was able to immediately recognize one of the kids' resemblance to Carrie Kelly, and her story pretty much adapted one of the scenes from Part 1. Incidentally I wasn't as impressed with it as the second film, mostly because the mook fight scenes were too long, and the Mutant leader was stupid af. Plus I hated his voice. (Tbh I wasn't a big fan of the voice-acting overall aside from effeminate Joker. Batman's rousing morale speech in Part 2 sounded completely dull.) Also as much as I'd like to get behind a girl Robin Carrie didn't actually bring much to the table. Her instant recruitment was even more ridiculous given the impact of Jason's death was made abundantly clear.

On the subject of GRRL!!! POWER, since the last ep of the night ended on such a note I got the slight impression from the chat conversation I'm the only female in the audience. *shrug* C'est la vie.

...I am so gay and obsessed. OTL

[lilboocorsola]

More random late night rants:

I'm starting to really ship Tim Drake x Stephanie Brown... But specifically DCAU Tim Drake. The parallels between them are just so striking:

-Both came from criminal backgrounds but didn't want to follow in their fathers' footsteps.
-They were kids in over their heads had the least amount of training/skills prior to the crimefighting job but their greatest strength was determination.
-Both their careers as Robin ended via brutal torture at the writers' hands for shock value.
-Steph was also faced with the choice to shoot her captor... She refused, and that led to her "demise".

Though she's had her share of hardships she's the most upbeat and optimistic member of the Bat Family, much like how Tim once was. I can see her giving him the support he needs to get back on his feet. It's confirmed that Tim is married to Steph in RotJ, which honestly makes me feel a bit better about the whole thing. If she's anything like her mainstream comics counterpart (whether or not she's also Spoiler - although that'd be an interesting dynamic for DCAU Tim to date another vigilante given his history *insert all the drama/protectiveness*), she'd be a good match for him.

Besides, if she can get Damian the brooding Brat Wonder to smile and let loose a little, she's a-okay in my book.

On the subject of Damian, I watched both films featuring him. Son of Batman was meh, Batman vs. Robin was a bit better since it actually addressed the strained relationship between father and son. Although it was mashed up with the Court of Owls storyline that I didn't know what to make of. The action was cool, but I'm not a big fan of giant conspiracy theory retcons. I read there was a comic where Joker indicated he was responsible for setting up Jason to become Robin from the start so he could kill him and that's going way too overboard for me... (Surprisingly I'm okay with Terry being Bruce's son though. At least it explains the genetic improbability of him having dark hair when both his parents are redheads.) Speaking of which was the Talon supposed to be a Todd expy? Felt kinda like it with the red hair and philosophy on killing criminals. Damian definitely gives me UtRH vibes too, particularly at the start when he asks Bruce if he had been in one of the Dollmaker's cages, would Batman have killed then? (On that note I don't know how much more child abuse/brainwashing I can stomach...) Oh you woobie Batboys and desperation for dad's affection... I admit Damian kinda grew on me by the end. For all his god-tierness he's still just a 10-year-old boy trying to figure himself out, which is why he can fall for such traps and emotional manipulation. Because of that mistrust it felt believable to see things weren't so easily patched up by a hug.

Also on the topic of movies I saw Mystery of the Batwoman during Monday's stream to wrap up TNBA. 1) There's no denying Bruce is a creeper. (Tangent: The Creeper is an awesome villain and I wish there could've been more of him in the show.) 2) Roxanne is adorkable. ...Also can I just say right before this scene Tim was geeking out with her over video games and excited to tell the guys at school about the secret bonus level and he's still just a kid even though he does all this cool training shit in the background and clearly improved his skills plus it even sounds like he's going through puberty due to a different VA ughghh

ALSO FOR MORE TIM BEING AMAZING

Justice League Adventures #33

As soon as I learned this was a solo Robin + JL adventure (I guess the Bat Embargo didn't apply to the comics?), I had to get my hands on it. He really shows off how far he's come by growing into his namesake's persona and doing all the detective work. (Not to mention dodging that attack like nobody's business. I also like how he's mimicking his mentor by just hiding in the shadows here. Although part of me wonders if it's a visual representation of him finding out Clayface is the primary suspect...) Plus he does the smart thing by going straight to the Justice League for help when Batman goes missing (flying all the way to space by himself because he was "trained by the best"), and in the end he's the one who easily breaks Bruce out of the villain's mind control... Et tu, Batsy?

I also want to share this last page from the next issue, in contrast with the preceding. The context is that Lex Luthor from the future traveled back in time to retrieve relics from Superman's and Batman's pasts that could be used in a magic spell to destroy them: For Clark it was a piece of his spaceship, and for Bruce it was one of the bullets that killed his parents. I like that this comic highlighted the differences between Bats and Supes, as they each narrate their origins at the beginning as a bookend, contrasting their views of dark and light. This funny exchange takes place as well. It's really depressing though how Bruce is so clearly determined to focus on the bleak and grim, as he says these words when surrounded by trophies from his victories, including nods to his old partnership (noice, especially since that costume doesn't carry the weight of Jason's death; plus according to DCAU comics canon the trophies themselves symbolize his bond with Dick). Whereas Clark is more than happy to appreciate having a close support system now even though his own biological parents died... C'mon Batty just join the Super Friends and be part of big nakama, why don't you? ...Or simply talk to, y'know, your own family once in a while.

P.S. Just to be fair to other BatFam members I haven't covered, while I don't know as much about her this "Batman and Sons" page makes me feel really bad for Cassandra. (The whole webcomic is great btw. So much awful and adorable parenting - from other DC superheroes as well. XP)

[Mercutio]

I thought the Son of Batman film and its sequel were fairly meh. The new DCAU they're building has a lot to recommend it in technical terms but all of the characters are really quite dull.

[lilboocorsola]

I didn't realize they were part of a new DCAU, I assumed they were all stand-alone projects. Will probably watch Justice League: War at some point, if only for this exchange with Green Lantern.

In the meantime I'm also catching up on some of the BTAS episodes that I missed - mainly for Robin "research" *ahem*, but a lot of confused Bruce Wayne feels are slipping into the mix too. Commentary on a couple:

"Fear of Victory"

Spoiler: show

I really want to like this ep since it features a cute helpless Dick who's scared of heights *shot*, but there's a lot of illogicality I can't overlook.

First is a nitpick: There's a continuity error that shows a photo of Grayson at his graduation with Bruce, but later according to "Old Wounds" Bruce never attended since he was busy as Batman.

I'm sure Selina would not approve of using cats as test subjects for an unidentified drug, Bruce.

On that note, if the drug is absorbed through the skin, how is it the thug who tries to shake down Scarescrow was affected when he was wearing gloves? I assumed it worked like the chemical Harley coated her book with in the comics, which is why Bats didn't experience any effects after picking up the telegram. (Lol telegrams.)

I also find it sad that when they visit Arkham and Batman passes by all his rogues, Ivy's first response is to cower and protect her plant. Harley did the same thing in her Holiday ep when B Man simply offered her a handshake...

On a brighter note the scene where Batman smiles flirtatiously at a lady whose apartment he bursts into unintentionally was hilarious. "Oh my! ...Eau my. 83"

"I Am the Night"

Spoiler: show

This one hurt. It's the one where Bruce has an existential crisis after Gordon gets shot. While him raging and ravaging the Batcave seemed a little melodramatic (that's expensive equipment, Bruce; I know you can afford it but jeeze show a little restraint), but this line hit home:

How long before I let someone else I care about down? Leslie... Alfred... *turning to Dick* You. Or your replacement.

*literally chokes while crying and writhing*

It's this kind of thinking that probably pushed him to become more hardened and emotionally distant towards his comrades... *sigh* And then Dick is determined to go after the culprit on his own, because Bruce taught him everything he knows about crimefighting, the most important lesson being "never give up" fffff

Man the more I think about it Dick Grayson might've gotten the most screwed by the BB continuity. He permanently loses an eye in his last team-up with Batman, doesn't reconcile with Bruce, and grows to be bitter and alone without even settling down with anyone after hanging up the Nightwing costume. He and Bruce might be more alike than he'd dare to admit. (In Bruce's defense, while I still think the whole thing with Barbara is kinda skeevy Dick was also being immature. Not being forthcoming with Dick drove a wedge between them in the first place, so Bruce probably figured it would be better if he told Dick the truth before Barbara did. It was basically a "damned if you do damned if you don't" scenario, and I doubt Dick would have taken it well either way.)

DCAU really likes its downer endings huh.

[lilboocorsola]

I'm so desperate I watched both Batman Unlimited movies. (It's these Batbro shorts that convinced me. I just love the sibling dynamic and rivalry between these two dorks. Why couldn't BTAS Tim have gone on to be Red Robin damnit.)

For kids' films made to promote a toy line, they were pretty entertaining. I probably enjoyed them a lot more than I should have, if the fact I had a huge grin plastered on my face throughout most of the time is any indication. After all the doom and gloom of nu52 and the old DCAU it's nice to have some pure corny fluff, even if the science mumbo jumbo/villains' plots don't make any sense. The actual advertisting aspect of it wasn't too bad, except in the second film where the dumb robo-dino was definitely pushing it too far. ...I kinda want a motorcycle dog now though. (Bruce even named it "Ace" aww.)

Mostly it was just fun to watch a bunch of different heroes team up and kick butt à la Justice League. Though the designs leave something to be desired (Dick what is up with your hair), the characterization was good. There's even a nice dramatic moment for Nightwing when he confronts Scarecrow in the House of Mirrors (hello disco collar), but he deals with it his own way. ...I have to say the fact he's voiced by Terry is very distracting though.

(And maybe it's just me, but the fact Tim is always the one who tries to reason with good guys whose bodies/minds are being controlled not only hits home but speaks to his compassionate/pacifist side, as someone who believes in others and would rather use brains than brawns to solve a problem. I do wish he'd take off his mask though.)

The personality humor is spot-on. I wasn't sold on Joker's appearance at first either (why does he have a Pinocchio nose), but then when he goes to town on the Joker-isms on the newsfeed and during his escape I just smiled and thought "that's Joker all right". What a terrible, lovable maniac.

Speaking of Joker, this fanart made me freak out at first because I thought it was a reference to RotJ... Then I read the description which said it was from The Killing Joke, in which Joker had a pregnant wife who died. They were going to name their unborn child "Junior". ...Now my feels are very confused.

Starting Batman Beyond in tonight's stream. Not sure if I'll be able to keep up as much after this point, but we'll see.

[lilboocorsola]

IT'S BEEN 15 YEARS AND BATMAN BEYOND IS STILL SCARY AS SHIT

[Mercutio]

Well, yes :p

Did you watch the one where all the foes are animal themed and Nightwing is voiced by the actor for Terry McGuinness?

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

Well, yes :p

Did you watch the one where all the foes are animal themed and Nightwing is voiced by the actor for Terry McGuinness?

Yeah, I mentioned how distracting that was in my post. I also saw the sequel.

The thing that surprises me most is how brutal BB is. The streamer's been keeping a death counter (and now a "schway" counter at my suggestion *shot*), and in 10 episodes there have already been 10 deaths (with 2 fates worse than death and 4 schways), so an average of 1 death per ep. Yikes.

It's sad how bitter and jaded Bruce has become that he doesn't even seem to care about his moral code anymore, or at least lets his protégé get away with breaking it. Maybe because one already did.

That "Guess you're the expert on troubled kids. You collect them, right?" burn though. ...Gotta catch 'em all!

[Doppleganger]

I think the worst parts of Batman Beyond are the youth culture dances 'n stuff. It feels symptomatic of far more amorality than the killing and corruption rampant everywhere else (which just feels modern).

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola

IT'S BEEN 15 YEARS AND BATMAN BEYOND IS STILL SCARY AS SHIT

Outside of the traumatizing film, I never found Batman Beyond to be the least bit scary. O.o

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Talon87

Outside of the traumatizing film, I never found Batman Beyond to be the least bit scary. O.o

Idk maybe I'm more sensitive but stuff like the "Spellbound" ep reminds me why I didn't like watching the show much as a kid. BTAS had its share of hallucinogenic stories (Spellbinder's basically a mix of Scarecrow and Mad Hatter after all), but there's something a lot more visceral about the portrayal of imagining oneself in a warzone or a world literally infested with insects, as opposed to some spiders crawling over an individual or football players temporarily turning into monsters. The idea that just looking at a pattern could drive someone to tear her earrings out or jump off a bridge onto the highway in terror is pretty disturbing IMO.

The only ep of this series I distinctly remember watching back then involved killer rats (reminds me I still need to see that Sewer King one *shot*), which stuck with me specifically because it freaked me out. On the bright side, going in blind makes it more fun wondering what old rogues/references will show up (no spoilers please; I'm trying to avoid looking at the episode titles/summaries as well). We've already seen what happens to Mr. Freeze and Bane.

...*wonders if Three-Face ended up executing himself*

[lilboocorsola]

ACE IS A ROBIN



I literally squealed when I saw Brucey smile in relief to see Ace come home. ;~; Good batdog.

No but like...

I had a lot of feels tonight.

First there was the son who tried to "help" troubled teens by taking revenge on their tormentors because he wanted his dad's attention.

Followed by the ep where Terry went missing and what must have been going through Bruce's mind when the kid didn't respond for a day and at the same time Terry met a runaway boy who's pretty much a brat but could've very well been the next Robin if executives pushed for it.

And then Ace's origin which was basically "animal cruelty is bad" but it's pretty much a reflection of how Bruce tries to take in those who are damaged in some way and it's a mutual emotional benefit to both (especially given how lonely Bruce must have been after everyone left him).

The stream even ended on a nice note with Melanie and her brother of the Royal Flush Gang both reforming. \o/

*buries face in hands* I don't know why this is all affecting me so much but it does.

I JUST WANT THEM ALL TO BE HAPPY

[Doppleganger]

I don't think Terry was very well suited for having a Robin. His situation paralleled Bruce, but wasn't exact, since his mother and brother were still alive. I also always wondered why that stray dog was so well behaved. Was it a police dog originally?


It's kind of funny how Guts in Berserk not only has a Batman-like costume now, but also engaging in a similar pattern in replacing the important people he lost with surrogates.

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

I don't think Terry was very well suited for having a Robin. His situation paralleled Bruce, but wasn't exact, since his mother and brother were still alive. I also always wondered why that stray dog was so well behaved. Was it a police dog originally?

Oh no I wouldn't have actually wanted to see Terry with a Robin nor would I imagine him taking one on, but the parallel seeds were obviously planted. On that note I do like seeing Terry interacting with his remaining family. The scene where he helped his little brother remember what their dad was like was sweet (and adorable since it ended in a tickle fight).

Ace came from a dogfighting circuit. Bruce must have trained him well (tbf Ace seemed to possess a pretty good judge of character to begin with since he saved Bruce from a Jokerz when they met in Crime Alley).

[Mercutio]

The Terry from Epilogue with a Robin would be good.

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Mercutio

The Terry from Epilogue with a Robin would be good.

I don't know about that. As Dopple said presumably Terry's family is still alive and well, so he doesn't have need of a surrogate. (He's also still with Dana and was planning to propose to her, plus apparently she learned his secret at some point. I do wonder if his brother ever found out about his double-life though.) Terry has an excellent support system in place that doesn't require taking other minors out on suicide missions, and that's a good thing. Despite not wanting to be called "Robin", Max has expressed interest in joining Batman out on the streets, which Terry was against from the start. (And as seen in her brief team-up with Bruce in Terry's absence, she can't really handle the pressure of facing criminals anyway. She's better off in the Oracle role.)

Maybe Terry would take on a protégé at some point to carry on the crusade when he's gone (if Gotham's still a cesspool by then; considering it's the comics world of course it will), but having been on the receiving end of Bruce's harsh demands I think he'd probably have a much different teaching approach. He's not as alone and obsessed with justice as Bruce. He's just doing this for his own redemption, and helping people along the way. (The fact he shares Bruce's genes doesn't change that IMO. On a tangent though the beginning of the "Zeta" episode was kinda unnerving given the discussion of "nature vs. nurture". ...Foreshadowing?)

Batman may not need a Robin, but Bruce Wayne does. He gets that in Terry too. Terry, on the other hand, functions fine as a solo act. As seen in Return of the Joker, he takes down Batman's nemesis by not following Bruce's advice and instead using his own methods. As much as he has to rely on guidance as a newcomer, there'll come a time when he completely develops his own style and independence, like Nightwing.

...Speaking of Nightwing, I actually had a dream about him last night. Good lord I really am obsessed. OTL

[Mercutio]

Well sure but you're framing Robin from the point of view of Batman, from which perspective Robins are basically child soldiers which is not ok.

But if you look at it from the point of view of a Robin, Terry would be great. He has all the Batman positives but much less of the borderline clinical insanity. Much better role model, we know that he's much better with people, we know he's much better with emotions. As you allude to in the second paragraph.

I mean I'm just fanboying for a BatFamily Beyond, and because it's the future you can more easily pick a girl, or a black kid, or a Robin with a disability ala Daredevil.

[lilboocorsola]

Wasn't there a flashforward in the comics somewhere to a black Robin?

On a somewhat related note I'm fangirling over this adorable page of Dick and Damian's reunion (apparently Dick had to fake his death and become a spy or something in a spin-off series?). I hear their team-up as Batman and Robin was pretty good, it'd be interesting if that does get adapted at some point (along with other new members of the BatFam).

[Mercutio]

Really? That's cool.

Yeah Dick Grayson is a secret agent for some reason.