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Old 09-19-2019, 10:45 PM   #5401
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That's actually a bit easier to handle I think? It's been so long I forget the cards that can stop activated effects in the hand.

I still don't like it. It feels like the game needs to go back to a 6 card first turn now since disruption is so powerful, if you ruin your opponent's strategy you've basically won even going second.
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:14 PM   #5402
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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
That's actually a bit easier to handle I think? It's been so long I forget the cards that can stop activated effects in the hand.

I still don't like it. It feels like the game needs to go back to a 6 card first turn now since disruption is so powerful, if you ruin your opponent's strategy you've basically won even going second.
Anything that essentially stops monster effects and can chain to Nibiru will stop it, with the exception of certain cards. Hot Red Dragon Archfiend Abyss, for example, cannot negate Nibiru at all since once Nibiru hits the board, Abyss is tributed.

I disagree with this, I just think going second really gives you a fighting chance now rather than everyone choosing to go first because it was wholly superior. Even with hand traps, there's only one deck in the format (Altergeists) that can actually do anything when your opponent goes first (and Multifaker got Limited).
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:58 AM   #5403
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Going second is more powerful than going first, because if you can counter your opponent's board, you win while also establishing your own big board. That's the entire reason why Maxx "C" was insanely powerful: if the opponent was running a first turn or scoop FTK deck, they autolose if you had Maxx "C", since you could draw enough disruption and power cards to muscle through their big board.

Solitaire decks existed because Konami didn't have the YGO equivalent of MTG Instants and Interrupts. At the same time, decks that are so explosive they can handle hard minuses like Droll & Lock heavily favour the player going second.

It's saying a lot that my deck, which used to thrive on going first, was unplayable if I was forced to go first. I needed to draw well AND not be disrupted.

So, if there's a balance issue to be had, I think what should happen is both players draw 6 in the opening hand, but the player who goes second skips their first draw phase on their turn.

What this means is that, while the player going first has 6 cards to open their combos, the player going second has 6 cards at their disposal during the first player's turn. That means you get one more chance to draw your first turn disruption, instead of potentially topdecking that card during the second turn after it's too late.

This reduces the influence of luck, where the player going first can't play through disruption, and the player going second loses at the dice roll because they didn't draw disruption in their opening draw.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:26 AM   #5404
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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Going second is more powerful than going first, because if you can counter your opponent's board, you win while also establishing your own big board. That's the entire reason why Maxx "C" was insanely powerful: if the opponent was running a first turn or scoop FTK deck, they autolose if you had Maxx "C", since you could draw enough disruption and power cards to muscle through their big board.
Maxx "C" also would just end your opponent's turn. It was an Upstart the forced your opponent to just die. Most people didn't go in on Maxx "C".

Going second is arguably just as powerful going first because you get a Battle Phase. While some slower decks, like Sky Strikers, Salamangreats, and Altergeists aren't really going to make much advantage of this, decks like Orcust and Thunder Dragon are going to be less worried about making their first turn boards and more worried about killing you.

Quote:
Solitaire decks existed because Konami didn't have the YGO equivalent of MTG Instants and Interrupts. At the same time, decks that are so explosive they can handle hard minuses like Droll & Lock heavily favour the player going second.

It's saying a lot that my deck, which used to thrive on going first, was unplayable if I was forced to go first. I needed to draw well AND not be disrupted.
While I get it, I think its worth pointing out that the best decks in the format currently are all decks that function best going first and want to go first whenever possible. Some Orcust variants like Cyber Dragon Orcusts want to go second, yes, but it's much rarer. Going first is still the most viable strategy, and has been for quite a while. Even the combo decks that used to be around like Danger! Thunder went first because they didn't play hand traps and just played as many extenders as possible, and that deck was incredible before Nibiru.

Quote:
So, if there's a balance issue to be had, I think what should happen is both players draw 6 in the opening hand, but the player who goes second skips their first draw phase on their turn.

What this means is that, while the player going first has 6 cards to open their combos, the player going second has 6 cards at their disposal during the first player's turn. That means you get one more chance to draw your first turn disruption, instead of potentially topdecking that card during the second turn after it's too late.

This reduces the influence of luck, where the player going first can't play through disruption, and the player going second loses at the dice roll because they didn't draw disruption in their opening draw.
I think we're ignoring something else too: going first isn't defenseless. Cards like Called by the Grave, PSY-Framegear Gamma, and Sauravis all exist and can all stop handtraps, and different kinds. Going first also gives you the benefit of trap cards: Solemn Strike and Solemn Judgment or Orcust Crescendo.

It's not black and white, but from what I've seen after playing this game, going second decks, decks whose main strategy is to blind second whenever possible are really, really rare in Yu-Gi-Oh. There are some notable examples, like going second SPYRALs for instance, but for the most part, decks want to go first. Even if you disrupt your opponent going second, they'll probably have disruption for you too, or be able to break your board. My experiences don't really line up.
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Old 09-20-2019, 10:53 AM   #5405
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While I get it, I think its worth pointing out that the best decks in the format currently are all decks that function best going first and want to go first whenever possible. Some Orcust variants like Cyber Dragon Orcusts want to go second, yes, but it's much rarer. Going first is still the most viable strategy, and has been for quite a while. Even the combo decks that used to be around like Danger! Thunder went first because they didn't play hand traps and just played as many extenders as possible, and that deck was incredible before Nibiru.
Yes, because if you can +10 in a turn, you give yourself much more ammo to prevent your opponent from going +12 on turn 2. Roll then control.

It's much easier to gamble on your opponent drawing poorly on turn 1 and having no ability to answer a big board during that turn, than to gamble on disrupting them so badly their deck cannot mount any defense at all to your plays. This is why staple traps are bad: if you know that a certain % of decks are going to run x staples, you know how much of the deck could potentially disrupt you.

I used to use this strategically on DN whenever I'd play matches: scout the opponent's deck on turn 1, scoop without revealing what they're running, then blast them on the second game after siding in hate. Then side in hate with what you think they'd use to disrupt you.

The worst possible outcome on a match is you get disrupted on turn 1, your opponent knows EXACTLY what you're running, and you don't get to see their deck while they side in hate to make your life miserable.

This all-or-nothing style of play has been inflamed by Konami intentionally designing wombo combos that incentivize soliatire play. And to counteract that they introduce broken stuff like Nibiru, which is like poison to counteract poison.

I dunno if I said it here or elsewhere, but when the printed cards have so much text that they read like small bibles, that's the problem. Floating beatsticks with three or four OP effects that search or float into floodgates and/or bosses.

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I think we're ignoring something else too: going first isn't defenseless. Cards like Called by the Grave, PSY-Framegear Gamma, and Sauravis all exist and can all stop handtraps, and different kinds. Going first also gives you the benefit of trap cards: Solemn Strike and Solemn Judgment or Orcust Crescendo.

It's not black and white, but from what I've seen after playing this game, going second decks, decks whose main strategy is to blind second whenever possible are really, really rare in Yu-Gi-Oh. There are some notable examples, like going second SPYRALs for instance, but for the most part, decks want to go first. Even if you disrupt your opponent going second, they'll probably have disruption for you too, or be able to break your board. My experiences don't really line up.
I'm perfectly fine with anti-disruption cards. If you have to run both disruption and cards to prevent disruption, you're reducing the consistency of your draws and put all the more pressure on searching and floating. The deck is less threatening with the more unsearchable tech thrown in. Most decks wouldn't be able to function if 15-20 cards are unsearchable traps, hand traps or anti-handtrap tech.
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Old 10-09-2019, 10:47 PM   #5406
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New Banlist Drop

Forbidden:
Guardragon Agarpain
Knightmare Mermaid

Limited:
Sky Striker Mecha - Widow Anchor

Semi-Limited:
Dark Armed Dragon

Unlimited:
Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End
Destiny HERO Malicious
Ehther the Heavenly Monarch
Elemental HERO Stratos
Inzektor Dragonfly
Shurit, Strategist of the Nekroz
El Shaddoll Construct
Royal Tribute
Super Rejuvenation

Agarpain was a hit to the guardragon turbo decks that were still trying to kick around. The ability to summon Hot Red Dragon Archfiend Abyss or Crystal Wing Synchro Dragon for free was nuts. Knightmare Mermaid is the more significant hit as it basically makes Orcusts a dead deck. This is probably fair, given that Cyber Dragon Orcusts and Lunalight Orcusts were rapidly just absorbing the metagame.

Widow Anchor means that there are rapidly becoming less and less viable targets to search off of Engage, and Striker fields are a lot less potent now going first. I'm curious to see how Striker adapts to this and whether it makes a big difference.

Malicious going to 3 is scary, definitely didn't expect that to happen. It's still two free monsters for no effort. Whether or not Super Rejuvenation will be good remains to be seen, but my initial feeling is no.
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:26 PM   #5407
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We now live in a world where Chaos Emperor Dragon is unlimited. No wonder I never really made it past the Synchro phase of the game...
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:34 PM   #5408
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Once upon a time, I would have oozed at the thought of using Super Poly and Construct for defense.

Also, it's not the same CED. Errata ruined the game.
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:10 PM   #5409
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Errata didn't ruin the game. That's a severe overreaction.

But yeah CED has been heavily neutered.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:04 PM   #5410
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Errata didn't ruin the game. That's a severe overreaction.

But yeah CED has been heavily neutered.
I mean more like in a dogmatic sense. Errata as a precedent, or more generally the idea of retroactively changing the game reality, gutted any illusions that the game you play today had any continuity to the game played 10 years ago.

It created a slippery slope - errata opened the door to major rule changes, like the 5 card opening turn and the post-Link Special Summon mechanics, meaning the game now is no longer comparable to the game from 2012.

So yeah, using errata on banned cards didn't affect the game at all really (since those cards were already banned), but it's bad in principle, especially for a game that evolved without such mechanical changes until the game was over 15 years old.
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Old 10-11-2019, 04:45 AM   #5411
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I thought Konami had always been more into making new cards with tweaked effects similar to banned cards but just nerfed enough to be meta viable. Retroactively changing fifteen year old cards feels like they're messing with their own history...
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Old 10-11-2019, 12:02 PM   #5412
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They don't do many erratas in fairness, I think there's been less than 20 that have retroactively changed a card.

Also its not like the format where CED was stupid is even that worth remembering
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Old 10-11-2019, 12:29 PM   #5413
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The errata happened because, supposedly, Takahashi didn't like so many iconic cards on the banlist. I highly doubt he cared about cards like Inzektor Dragonfly, but things like CCV and CED were cards I think he didn't like that fans couldn't use. And since the effects are different compared to the anime anyway, there was an overall agnostic attitude toward watering down the effects (ignoring that the cards had their own history within the card game).

I have a similar attitude toward Summoned Skull really, which is the only Normal-type monster to have non-lore written in its box.
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Old 10-22-2019, 02:14 AM   #5414
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I have a similar attitude toward Summoned Skull really, which is the only Normal-type monster to have non-lore written in its box.
Beast of Talwar. Granted, its the same non-lore text, but that's a problem of bad translation.

As there are now 10,000 Yugioh cards, here are some handy infographics breaking down various statistics of those cards!
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:00 AM   #5415
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Nothing there surprises me except the high number of Machine-types. I would have sworn Warrior, Dragon, and Spellcaster were the top 3, with Machine coming out closer to Zombie or Beast.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:23 PM   #5416
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New artifact link is very fair, it is in fact extremely fair to set Artifacts from your deck for free, that auto-pop and trigger.
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