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Old 10-06-2012, 12:51 PM   #1
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The State of American Public Education

How much does this rustle your jimmies?

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Old 10-06-2012, 12:55 PM   #2
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Why do we allow small groups of obviously radical people to dictate education for our whole country?
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:58 PM   #3
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A man who believes dinosaurs were on 'the arc' is the chairman of the Board of Ed...
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:08 PM   #4
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NY makes it's own books so.. we're immune to this bullshit. A lot of other states do too.

Plus just because something isn't in a book doesn't mean it isn't going to get taught.
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #5
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It was pretty bad but "politics as usual" for the first half. However, the second half was pretty fucking ridiculous. The best part is when he's like "Well I don't agree with these experts! Somebody has to stand up to these experts ...!" You mean ... like a non-expert? 'Cause when every single reputable expert the Board of Education called in testifies contrary to your own beliefs, where else can you turn but to non-expert testimony? And the moment you have to do that, sir, do you not question that maybe just maybe your own beliefs might be a little suspect?

Expert 1: In World War 2, the English fought on the side of the Allied Powers.
Expert 2: In World War 2, the English fought on the side of the Allied Powers.
Expert 3: In World War 2, the English fought on the side of the Allied Powers.
Expert 4: In World War 2, the English fought on the side of the Allied Powers.
Expert 5: In World War 2, the English fought on the side of the Allied Powers.
Expert 6: In World War 2, the English fought on the side of the Allied Powers.
This chairman: Well I don't agree! Someone has to stand up to these "experts" and say that the British were part of the Axis Powers until 1944!
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:12 PM   #6
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> Plus just because something isn't in a book doesn't mean it isn't going to get taught.

Yeah, but a lot of school systems base their curricula off textbook contents, and teachers risk poor evaluations and whatnot if their teaching doesn't meet these criteria.

It's probably not as big of a deal as it seems, but it still smacks of 1984 a bit when they're moving to edit surgically the textbooks that will be going into the hands of American kids to favor their bias.
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:39 PM   #7
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Did that one part just say..."I'd like to remove hip hop and insert country music"? Honestly, American education terrifies me. At least here we're to the point of having to decide how much we'll reduce religion classes in basic education - no adding or keeping it the same, we're reducing those numbers in favor of other subjects. The general consensus is shifting to "a child's parents should teach the religion if they want the kid to learn it" instead of the school system doing it, apart from teaching that there are indeed many religions and ways to believe (to avoid too many clashings of cultures, so informative instead of "GOD EXISTS THE WAY CHRISTIANS SEE IT THE END").
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:43 PM   #8
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This scares me. This is like America under Santorum.

How can people get away with this? How can one state decide the fate of some many others? I live in Connecticut, and I have never seen anything in my Biology textbooks about dinosaurs living on the arc or walking with humans? Even funnier about that part is the fact that the interviewer meant it as a joke! That is crazy.

The "challenge the experts" part is funny too. Because if you are not an expert on something, how can you hope to go up against the experts? It makes me really sad to think that people are trying to brainwash kids through this. This should also show that conservatives to try to busybody their ways into people's lives.

Be right back guys, moving to Texas to keep this from happening.
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:55 PM   #9
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This is actually a major historiographical issue, because technically there is no such thing as an unbiased historical text, nor could there ever be. In addition, we have no way of absolutely verifying beyond a doubt what the past holds. That means that this really is a matter of these politicians challenging the weight of historical authority, because neither side can actually appeal to the truth per se. There have been major movements in history lately that challenge history as a science, instead calling it a more-grounded form of fiction. This is simply a case of intentional fiction (politicians), versus unintentional fiction (authority - historians).
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Old 10-07-2012, 06:44 AM   #10
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Ah, education politics. Depressing as always. Much like welfare an healthcare.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #11
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And this is why I am glad to be a part of the #1 school system in the U.S.

Also Mitt Romney lies when he says Massachusetts education is the best because it is not.
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Old 10-07-2012, 04:38 PM   #12
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Pray enlighten us on what the best school system is, Shucks?
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charminions View Post
A man who believes dinosaurs were on 'the arc' is the chairman of the Board of Ed...
Actually, there's plenty of evidence to at least challenge the notion that humans and dinosaurs never coexisted. It's just all swept under the rug because it doesn't conform to evolutionists' theories so you never hear about it. I could list it for you, if you'd like, but I doubt you're interested.


As for the video, I saw this on youtube a long while back. I'm not particularly worried about it, since all history is biased, and it's simply a reverse bias from what's been taught in schools for the past several decades anyway.

If bias in education is your main worry, then you should all be vocal advocates of private schools rather than public ones, and school choice on the part of the parents. Because so long as a central power can organize a particular bias in education, it will, and only some of the time will it conform with your own, the only way to mitigate this, is to provide parents with school choice, so that they can determine which side of bias they want their children to be taught.

Though, personally, I think the reason you dislike this is because the bias intended here doesn't conform with your own. Do correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old 10-07-2012, 10:11 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
Actually, there's plenty of evidence to at least challenge the notion that humans and dinosaurs never coexisted. It's just all swept under the rug because it doesn't conform to evolutionists' theories so you never hear about it. I could list it for you, if you'd like, but I doubt you're interested.
Have you even seen the evidence to why dinosaurs and humans did not exist? It has nothing to do with carbon dating, so any sources that badmouth that are out of the question. Scientists use radioactive isotopes of certain metal elements that have longer, more stable isotopes. This allows for greater accuracy. Plus, no human fossils have been found in the strata layers that dinosaurs have been found it. AND if human fossils were found at dinosaur dig sites, they have vastly different ratios of certain elements than the dinosaur fossils.


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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
As for the video, I saw this on youtube a long while back. I'm not particularly worried about it, since all history is biased, and it's simply a reverse bias from what's been taught in schools for the past several decades anyway.
I'm concerned about it because this man is trying to teach something that is not believed by a majority of the country, and that people can change this at will.

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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
If bias in education is your main worry, then you should all be vocal advocates of private schools rather than public ones, and school choice on the part of the parents. Because so long as a central power can organize a particular bias in education, it will, and only some of the time will it conform with your own, the only way to mitigate this, is to provide parents with school choice, so that they can determine which side of bias they want their children to be taught.
I am all for school choice. I believe that the quality of a child's education is very important, and if one of my kids came home saying that dinosaurs were "on the arc" I would be rightly incensed about it. Because that it simply not true. You can't argue with cold hard facts.

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Though, personally, I think the reason you dislike this is because the bias intended here doesn't conform with your own. Do correct me if I'm wrong.
No, not really. I would be just as incensed if this were someone who was a carbon copy of me. I dislike this because one state has the power to control so many. I think that my state gets its textbooks from New York, being neighors and all, but this makes me sadface for the rest of the nation. If one man can change the education of America, how much of it is going to be actual lies? Is he going to say that Obama is a Muslim and as such is "Bad Person" or that Bill Clinton was impeached or something? How much is he going to distort the truth just to manipulate children?
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:11 AM   #15
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Oh good, a debate thread where Unownmew says something incendiary and barking and then lots of people waste their time trying to change his opinions. We haven't got nearly enough of those.
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:31 AM   #16
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Pray enlighten us on what the best school system is, Shucks?
Northern Virginia is actually the best school system. Until recently, Thomas Jefferson High occupied the top public school spot in the nation. It's #2 or 3 now, which is still amazing, but one school doesn't decide the school system and this is no exception. Every school here is really top quality.

Of course, I don't have hard facts that aren't that. I've heard it said often and by authority figures I trust. But even if we're not the best, which I'll certainly allow for, the best is certainly not Massachusetts. Of all the improbable things to say.../grumble

i don't know why i'm telling you where i live

Oh and also, those little kids at the end. So adorable.

"Were dinosaurs on the ark?"
"No! No! Hahaha!"
"Sure they were!"
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:47 AM   #17
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A friend of mine has a cousin that goes to public school in Northern Virginia, and it blows away whatever we have here.

Like, out of the water. He also agrees with it being the best school system in the country.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:13 AM   #18
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Yeah, I live in Virginia, and while I'm in that area for college now, I have noticed that all of the schools that I've seen/been in and those in the Northern VA area, they are all really good. At the same time, I don't think that most areas in the country would put up with the blatant lies that are put into education, I know that where I went to school, I was in a top 1500 HS, and regardless the parents would have flipped the fuck out if they heard of some of this shit occurring in our school system.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:14 AM   #19
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Spoiler: while it is good to go to a better high school than a worse high school, being the so-called #1, #2, #20, #100 high school in the nation really doesn't mean jackshit in the long run. ^_^;

You don't have to take my word for it: just look at any of the following!
  • what percentage of people who attend [insert prestigious university of your choice] went to that high school?
  • pick a random famous accomplished American person in the latter half of the 20th century (examples: Bill Gates, Bill Clinton, Tom Hanks) and see if they went to the supposed #1 high school in the nation or not
If the university you graduate from is only a rough indicator of your future success in life, the high school you went to is even more rough of an indicator.

tl;dr it's great if you go to a nice high school but whether it's #1 or #500 they're the same damn thing in the grand scheme of things. The point is that they're not #25,562 or #108,344.
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:27 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blazeVA View Post
Have you even seen the evidence to why dinosaurs and humans did not exist? It has nothing to do with carbon dating, so any sources that badmouth that are out of the question. Scientists use radioactive isotopes of certain metal elements that have longer, more stable isotopes. This allows for greater accuracy. Plus, no human fossils have been found in the strata layers that dinosaurs have been found it. AND if human fossils were found at dinosaur dig sites, they have vastly different ratios of certain elements than the dinosaur fossils.
While I disagree carbon dating can be used as 100% proof of anything, that is not the evidence I'm referring to.
I'm not sure what you mean by "vastly different ratios of elements" unless you are referring back to carbon dating.

Anyway, this thread is about education, not dinosaurs, if you want my evidences, I'll be happy to PM them to you, or start a new thread.


Quote:
I'm concerned about it because this man is trying to teach something that is not believed by a majority of the country, and that people can change this at will.
It's no different than how the system was before he was in charge, so your level of concern here, vs what it was before, isn't justified unless the reason really is which bias you agree with. And let me assure you, scientific "fact" is just as biased as this "non-fact," the only difference is scientific fact bias is institutionalized and protected, whereas this person's is not.

Consensus does not make a fact, so it doesn't matter how many people believe something or not in the long run. If this goes over as you fear it will, the consensus will unavoidably be changed, and then you'll end up being the one in the wrong, because you've put your stock in "consensus facts" rather than real observational facts. Real facts will not always have a consensus behind them (note Galileo), so consensus is a very poor indicator of truth.


Quote:
I am all for school choice. I believe that the quality of a child's education is very important, and if one of my kids came home saying that dinosaurs were "on the arc" I would be rightly incensed about it. Because that it simply not true. You can't argue with cold hard facts.
TBH, no one can say with 100% certainty either way if Dinosaurs were on the ark or not, because the theological model, and the scientific evolution model are diametrically opposed to each other. Unless Noah's Ark is actually found, science is happy to completely avoid the question altogether. Out of sight, out of mind, and even science disagrees with a world-wide deluge, so the very existence of the ark is "questionable" according to the main-stream science.


Quote:
No, not really. I would be just as incensed if this were someone who was a carbon copy of me. I dislike this because one state has the power to control so many. I think that my state gets its textbooks from New York, being neighors and all, but this makes me sadface for the rest of the nation. If one man can change the education of America, how much of it is going to be actual lies? Is he going to say that Obama is a Muslim and as such is "Bad Person" or that Bill Clinton was impeached or something? How much is he going to distort the truth just to manipulate children?
No one can say how much will be manipulated or changed, and how much of it will be truly inaccurate, but for certain, you can't just write off the original textbook writers as unbiased. Just because it's not one person, doesn't mean they don't hold their own political views, and don't seek to inseminate them within the populace. Even something small and unnoticeable, like writing style, or a slightly favorable word here and disfavorable word there, or a slight omitting of a single crucial detail, can cast a certain light on what's being written that, while not overtly biased, influences the reader one way or another.


IMO, the biggest problem with science and history education, is that they teach everything as "unalterable fact," they may say "theory" every now and then, but beyond that, it's rote memorization of a list of "facts," there's no debate of possibilities or criticisms of the theory, and certainly no discussion of the "observations that sparked the thought. It says straightly things like: "the Big bang theory, most scientists agree the big bang is how the universe formed. This is what happened:" rather than a more objective: "there are many competing theories about the formation of the universe, but, no one can prove any of them to a certainty. One prominent theory is the big bang. The Big bang theory postulates that this happened. This is theorized because of these particular observations we have made, but our interpretation of observations does not make the interpretation true."

And then test questions go like this:
"According to the big bang theory, what happened in the beginning of the universe?"

Rather than a more objective, "The big bang theory is postulated on several astronomical observations, what was one of these observations?"


Modern science is more like religion than religion is, requiring it's pupils to adhere only to it's stated "facts," rather than to learn about the observations behind the theories, and encourage them to make their own observations and postulate their own theories. To the point that anything that doesn't conform to the scientific consensus is ridiculed, personally attacked and discredited, locked out of peer review, and otherwise ignored. And that is a major major problem to anyone who cares about an open and honest discussion of factual observations.

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Old 10-08-2012, 11:05 AM   #21
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Quote:
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While I disagree carbon dating can be used as 100% proof of anything, that is not the evidence I'm referring to.
I'm not sure what you mean by "vastly different ratios of elements" unless you are referring back to carbon dating.

Anyway, this thread is about education, not dinosaurs, if you want my evidences, I'll be happy to PM them to you, or start a new thread.
It would probably be best if you PMed them. And by the different ratio of elements, I meant things like how dinosaur fossils have a huge spike in Iridium, which is near non-existent in human fossils.

While carbon dating is no perfect, it does give a good approximation of the time when something was. I do agree with you though, one should not use just carbon dating to authenticate something.

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Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
It's no different then how the system was before he was in charge, so your level of concern here, vs what it was before, isn't justified unless the reason really is which bias you agree with. And let me assure you, scientific "fact" is just as biased as this "non-fact," the only difference is scientific fact bias is institutionalized and protected, where-as this person's is not.
But the things he was trying to insinuate in kids were not even taught during HIS time. And yes, scientific "facts" as you put it, are biased. But, they are supported by data and observations...which his ideas are not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
TBH, no one can say with 100% certainty either way if Dinosaurs were on the ark or not, because the theological model, and the scientific evolution model are diametrically opposed to each other. Unless Noah's Ark is actually found, science is happy to completely avoid the question altogether. Out of sight, out of mind, and even science disagrees with a world-wide deluge, so the very existence of the ark is "questionable" according to the main-stream science.
I think I explained why not. Mostly because dinosaurs and humans could not have lived together. For one thing, it would have been the extinction of mankind due to our odd height sticking us out to the Raptor family. We would be PRIME hunting.

True, no sign of Noah's Ark has been discovered. And it probably won't be. It probably would have been eaten and decayed over the thousands of years of time. It is hard to believe in something that you can't "see", in a less strict sense of the word. There is no ark, hence, we can conclude that the story in the Bible is not true...or at least until new evidence comes to light. But, let us not derail the thread here. Let this be the last say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
No one can say how much will be manipulated or changed, and how much of it will be truly inaccurate, but for certain, you can't just write off the original textbook writers as unbiased. Just because it's not one person, doesn't mean they don't hold their own political views, and don't seek to inseminate them within the populace. Even something small and unnoticeable, like writing style, or a slightly favorable word here and disfavorable word there, or a slight omitting of a single crucial detail, can cast a certain light on what's being written that, while not overtly biased, influences the reader one way or another.
True, true. I know that. The key is, as I have said multiple times before, to look up information with MULTIPLE biases, and make conclusions based on it.The problem is that most people are too lazy, stupid, or unwilling to do that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by unownmew View Post
IMO, the biggest problem with science and history education, is that they teach everything as "unalterable fact," they may say "theory" every now and then, but beyond that, it's rote memorization of a list of "facts," there's no debate of possibilities or criticisms of the theory, and certainly no discussion of the "observations that sparked the thought. It says straightly things like: "the Big bang theory, most scientists agree the big bang is how the universe formed. This is what happened:" rather than a more objective: "there are many competing theories about the formation of the universe, but, no one can prove any of them to a certainty. One prominent theory is the big bang. The Big bang theory postulates that this happened. This is theorized because of these particular observations we have made, but our interpretation of observations does not make the interpretation true."

And then test questions go like this:
"According to the big bang theory, what happened in the beginning of the universe?"

Rather than a more objective, "The big bang theory is postulated on several astronomical observations, what was one of these observations?"


Modern science is more like religion than religion is, requiring it's pupils to adhere only to it's stated "facts," rather than to learn about the observations behind the theories, and encourage them to make their own observations and postulate their own theories. And that is a major problem.
Wow....that is actually not how it is. That may have been the way in YOUR school, but certainly not in mine. We are encouraged to disagree if we want to, but certainly is science not taught as unalterable fact. Multiple times has it been said in my AP Chemistry, AP Biology, and AP Enviromental Science classes that this is what people believe, and this is WHY they believe it. They are more than willing to bring in the evidence and the observations that caused people to think of these theories.

Modern science is less like religion than it ever was. You are leading a very narrow minded view of science that is probably taught by your church. If you want the type of science you are describing, you should go back to the Middle Ages. They don't teach the scientific method for nothing unownmew. They don't say, "Nothing can be proven, it can only be disproven.

Let me put out a situation for you. Scientists want to know how an owl hunts in the dark. They want to know if it is by sight, hearing, or some sort of heat vision. So, they conduct a few experiments. The first two is a mouse with no leaf attached to it, and the next two are mouses with leaves attached to it. When they released the mouse, they noticed that the chance for capture was much higher in the second group then in the first. So, they conclude that hearing is the probable hunting tool, but that it can not be sight. Then, they test it out with mice with no leaves in a cold room, and in a warm room. They see that it makes no difference how hot or cold the room is, so, heat vision is out of the question to. So, is hearing proven?
...
...
...
NO. "No you say? But there are no more possibilities!" There will always be more possibilities. But, if you can find a solution that can explain why a mouse with a leaf attached to it is caught more than a normal mouse, then it can be tested. and maybe you are right. If you are right, then hearing is disproven.

However, when religion tries to disprove evolution, they try to attack it for what it isn't, or they use the Bible. The Bible is not a reliable source, because it is untested, unfounded, and has questionable origins. Bring the Bible to a serious debate, and you will be yelled at. People try to attack evolution for the fact that it has no explanation on how life first came to be. But, that is not what it is trying to say. It just says how life grows and develops. Even the Catholic Church agrees that evolution had to have happened. Though the Catholic Church may not be the best group in the world, they have bended to scientific proof in the past. Think Galileo, well, after he was put in house arrest. The Church doesn't repeat those things anymore, does it?

You are trying to pick at things that disagree with your own bias, like the Big Bang theory. Why don't you pick at something like Kinetic Theory? Religion is not "holier than thou" because it gets regularly picked at by new discoveries. If you are going to talk about bias, don't just conform to your own bias either.

Anyways....like I said, I have a problem with one state having power over so many. This is why state control is not perfect unownmew. Texas does this, KNOWING that a lot of states are going to buy these textbooks, without the consent of the other states. That is the problem. Not every state can make its own textbooks. And when an extremist, and that it what he is.

Quote:
Extremism is any ideology or political act far outside the perceived political center of a society;
Going on and trying to bend a nation to his will. This is a nation of "majority rules, minority respected", but this guy is the exact opposite of this. He goes in a "minority should rule, screw the majority, they all have to think like me." You can tell this guy is arrogant. You can tell this guy thinks everybody should think like him. He is more dangerous than a terrorist unownmew, because he can and will screw with the minds of our children. Remember that scene with the kids at the playground? They can not even answer whether dinosaurs EXISTED or not, when there is so much evidence that they did. That is what happens when you get an extremist who disagrees with cold hard facts.

I rest my case to be resurrected when you post again.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:07 AM   #22
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While Talon is correct, here is the US News High School rankings.

I personally think ranking schools is stupid (whether it be high school or college), but if you want to take a look at where your high school stands, feel free to do so and post results if you want.

I went to the 136th best high school in the country, apparently (second best in Missouri).
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:12 AM   #23
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I like how unownmew has no idea how science works and frankly, thinks that a high school student is qualified to discuss pretty much any field of it in the least.

There's a reason you have to be taught all the existing theories and laws before you can pick apart anything else. The BBT, is, in fact, the prevailing theory(among people actually qualified) for the creation of this universe, and probably the simplest. It is simply impossible to consider every possible theory, ever(HITLER DID NOTHING WRONG AND YOU MUST TEACH THIS IN HISTORY) while trying to teach anything worth teaching.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:15 AM   #24
Concept
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>UM

Is science education is just another on the long list of things the US is terrible at? Because here in the UK "here are the observations and how they led to this theory" and (wherever practical in a school science lab) "do the experiment and make the observations yourself" is very much how it's taught. When I was at school we literally did the experiments of, for example, electron diffraction (a demonstration of wave/particle duality) or the photoelectric effect (the explanation for which won Einstein his nobel prize) as part of my A-level syllabus.

More generally, scientific research basically involves coming up with new experiments to try to break/falsify existing hypotheses - that's how all science is done.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:22 AM   #25
Talon87
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While Talon is correct, here is the US News High School rankings.
Even those rankings are internally messed up. For Indiana, there are high schools whose college readiness scores are 40 points or greater but who are not included amongst the official top 10 schools presumably because they did not receive an official national gold or silver medal. ("To be eligible for a state ranking, a school must be awarded a national gold or silver medal.") So basically if you're not on D.C.'s radar then even if everyone in the state has heard of you US News doesn't care. Which is dumb. See here for the list of schools sorted by college readiness scores rather than by US News official ranking. Notice how there are schools in the third, sixth, ninth, and twelfth slots with no official score but who clearly place above schools officially ranked 1 thru 10. And just look at the horde of schools that failed to officially place but whose college readiness scores are between official 10th and official 11th.

If you go to the main page Tdos linked, tell it to sort by college readiness scores, and then go through the list looking for schools which show up in the state version, you won't find them listed where they should be. It sorts by college readiness score amongst gold rank schools first. So like, the top 400 high schools (by college readiness score) in the nation don't include a single one of those unranked Indiana schools.

It bears repeating though that none of this really matters. WTF is a college readiness score? College is a lot more than whether you did well or not in high school. And life is a lot more than whether you did well or not in college. These kinds of scores are a nice little pat on the ego for school officials but for anyone else they really shouldn't be given that much stock. All you should care about is not sending your kid to, say, School #39,455 when just down the road there are Schools #211 and #744.
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