01-11-2018, 11:45 PM | #4652 |
Think ye can take me?
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Probably in the US
Posts: 2,524
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just lorb scald works i think
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01-12-2018, 12:32 AM | #4653 |
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Yeah but that makes you a chad.
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01-12-2018, 01:13 AM | #4654 |
Think ye can take me?
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Probably in the US
Posts: 2,524
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hey we flexin that duckLORD over here you already know
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01-12-2018, 12:46 PM | #4655 |
我が名は勇者王!
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Apparently Ash-Greninja got Gunk Shot as with the US/UM move tutor, but it doesn't move the needle at all as far as its viability.
Even if you gave Water Shuriken 5 hits, which functionally makes it a priority Hydro Pump (with one hit on average getting a critical), the free move slot doesn't do any good. Water Shuriken's Hydro Vortex is much weaker than Hydro Pump's, so it no longer does enough damage to threats like Magearna. Meanwhile, Extrasensory/Ice Beam don't do enough to damage any other checks except Toxapex.
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01-12-2018, 01:01 PM | #4656 |
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Gunk Shot is only really for Tapu Fini and maybe Clefable. The reason why its so good on normal Greninja is because Greninja gets stab on it and simultaneously will resist Moonblast while Ash Greninja doesn't.
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01-12-2018, 06:09 PM | #4657 |
我が名は勇者王!
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Even with the STAB, the biggest benefit for Protean are the resistances that come with the type switch. It takes a lot less pressure off needing to OHKO would-be checks.
As a fun exercise, I wanted to see how G1 Mewtwo would do in the SM meta, with the following characteristics: -154 SpD -252 EVs in every stat -+2 SpA, SpD Amnesia Moves: Amnesia, Psystrike, Ice Beam, Fire Blast Item: Leftovers Ability: Pressure I didn't correct for: criticals, G1's Psychic environment (where only weak super effective moves existed) or adjustments the meta makes to combat Mewtwo, assuming Geomancy Xerneas is similar enough to not affect builds much. Mewtwo is always the first Pokemon sent out to take advantage of its speed for a fast setup + sweep. Some takeaways, down the viability: -Mega Rayquaza: Mewtwo goes +2, KO's -Primal Groudon: phases it with Roar, but Mewtwo takes out 40% of its health with Ice Beam -Dusk Mane Necrozma: Mewtwo goes +2 and KO's. Mewtwo can't risk Swords Dance. -Yveltal: Choice Scarf Yveltal 2HKOs Mewtwo with Foul Play -Xerneas: Mewtwo goes +6, KO's and probably sweeps -Marshadow: Mewtwo KO's with Psystrike after tanking Shadow Sneak -Mega Gengar: Mewtwo ties it in speed, but Mega Gengar loses almost every matchup due to Psystrike. Best move is to probably Taunt or Burn. -Zygarde Complete: Mewtwo goes +2, Zygarde paralyzes it. Zygarde dies to a +2 Ice Beam but Mewtwo can continue to set up -Arceus Ground: OHKO's Mewtwo with Z-Tectonic Rage -Primal Kyogre: Mewtwo goes +6, KO's and probably sweeps -Gothitelle: Best move is Trick Room, but Mewtwo goes +6. -Ho-Oh: Gets in one Sacred Fire before the KO. Mewtwo +2. -Magearna: Mewtwo boosts itself to +6, then drops Psystrike on +6 Magearna. A- through D: No unique challengers compared to above. Edit: Actually, looks like I was wrong about Yveltal and Arceus-Ground. Foul Play fails 73% of the time to 1HKO Mewtwo if you give him 0 IVs and 0 EVs in Attack. Arceus-Ground: 252 Atk Arceus-Ground Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mewtwo on a critical hit: 352-415 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Ain't happening. RBY Mewtwo still wrecks the meta like it's 1999. Only Primal Groudon and Dusk Mane Necrozma give him pause.
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ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望 今 信じあえる あきらめない 心かさね 永遠を抱きしめて Last edited by Doppleganger; 01-12-2018 at 09:01 PM. |
01-17-2018, 11:49 AM | #4658 |
Double Dragon
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,776
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Pretty big news
Apparently everyone thought that the base critical hit rate in Gen VII was 1/16. Turns out it's actually 1/24. Showdown just updated with the change.
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01-17-2018, 01:24 PM | #4659 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: somewhere gay idk
Posts: 3,280
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How did this go unnoticed?
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01-17-2018, 02:42 PM | #4660 |
Double Dragon
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,776
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Response from a dude on Smogon:
"At a guess, it's because crits seemed completely unchanged at a glance (higher stage crit chances were unchanged) so nobody really went looking and it's not something that'd immediately stand out just from playing - 4.16% vs 6.25% isn't so drastic a change that people would notice in particular, they're both fairly unlikely but not overwhelmingly unlikely. Keep in mind that relatively obscure stuff pops up from time to time much later than you'd expect - for example the Sleep Talk mechanics in gen III weren't discovered until 9 years after gen IV released." --- This is probably the most likely explanation. Another example is this MAJOR discovery made about gen 1 mechanics in late 2014. The biggest takeaway from it is that Body Slam is a very commonly used move in RBY, and it turns out that it cannot paralyze Normal types. With Tauros, Snorlax, and Chansey being used on almost every team this was a huge realization. And it wasn't until over fifteen years later that anyone noticed!
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01-17-2018, 07:15 PM | #4661 |
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The Gen I discovery actually changed like, how you play the Gen I OU metagame, its bonkers.
Well that and Counter Chansey.
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01-18-2018, 03:36 AM | #4662 |
我が名は勇者王!
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That's pretty inexcusable, in both cases, without needing to look at code. Just running aggregate statistical data should be able to sell you the crit or paralysis rates. You have well over 1,000 samples...closer to a hundred times that...so it should be sitting in plain sight.
To me, this underlines a problem systemic to what is effectively children's hobbies, in that someone with advanced statistical knowledge aren't present in the communities. Not compared to baseball's sabermetrics, which was what made baseball first accessible to me back in 2007, when I was studying econometrics. This bugged me way more with Yu-Gi-Oh! though, since internally but I didn't have the tools or the controlled environment to test my suspicions, and now that my deck is worthless I don't care anymore.
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01-18-2018, 06:49 AM | #4663 |
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Needlefiber wants attention senpai.
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01-18-2018, 07:54 PM | #4664 |
プラスチック♡ラブ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,766
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It's one thing with Gen VII where lots of weird things changed but it wasn't obvious, and this was largely a chance-related thing.
Even with Gen I the Gen I games were only properly disassembled like a yearish ago, so you would literally need to hexedit hex values of the nasty tangle of assembly that is Gen I game to discover mechanics like that. You'd basically have to know what you're looking for to ever discover it. Otherwise, why would you expect this specific irregular behavior if nothing even close to clear pointed to it? |
02-08-2018, 06:46 PM | #4665 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: somewhere gay idk
Posts: 3,280
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Petition to ban Shadow Tag from VGCs forever.
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02-09-2018, 09:13 PM | #4666 |
Sarasaland represent!
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02-10-2018, 09:33 AM | #4667 |
Naga's Voice
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: somewhere gay idk
Posts: 3,280
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Last edited by Heather; 02-10-2018 at 09:46 AM. |
02-10-2018, 02:30 PM | #4668 | |
Problematic Fave
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: VA
Posts: 3,199
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Quote:
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02-12-2018, 07:36 PM | #4669 |
Sarasaland represent!
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02-14-2018, 06:52 PM | #4670 |
Sarasaland represent!
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02-18-2018, 01:11 AM | #4671 |
Sarasaland represent!
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03-08-2018, 12:37 PM | #4672 |
我が名は勇者王!
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So can someone explain to me why Necrozma-DW is still x4 weak to Ghost and Dark despite having Prism Armour? I see people saying it doesn't apply because it's a double weakness but I don't see any evidence for that at all.
Possibly bugged?
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03-08-2018, 12:54 PM | #4673 | ||
時の彼方へ
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure if this correct or not. It's possible the buff as programmed (in either USUM, Showdown, or both) only works with filtering the damage of 2x effective moves and not 4x ones. But I don't read it that way, at least not from Bulbapedia and some shallow Googling. It seems to me like the damage multiplier is effectively reduced from 4x to 3x -- helpful in theory, not helpful in practice. (A 3x modifier on incoming damage coupled with paper-thin defenses means you're still going down in one hit.) So I guess I'd ask, are you sure you're still taking 4x damage and not 3x damage? Keep in mind, 3x damage is still very impressive and will OHKO most glass cannons.
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03-08-2018, 06:09 PM | #4674 | |
我が名は勇者王!
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I ran the numbers on the calculator:
252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 291-345 (86.8 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO Possible damage amounts: (291, 297, 297, 300, 306, 309, 315, 315, 318, 324, 327, 327, 333, 336, 342, 345) 252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Necrozma-Dawn-Wings: 388-460 (115.8 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Possible damage amounts: (388, 396, 396, 400, 408, 412, 420, 420, 424, 432, 436, 436, 444, 448, 456, 460) So it does look like Prism Armor has an effect, and Bulbapedia is wrong about the totals. (They show that Necrozma-DM only takes 1.5x from attacks, but show Necrozma-DW as taking x4). Smogon's write up was misleading as well in conjunction with the Bulbapedia entry: Quote:
I guess people are treating Prism Armour like it doesn't matter, because with the power level of ubers it really doesn't matter. Might as well be holding a paper shield up in defense.
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03-15-2018, 06:05 AM | #4675 |
我が名は勇者王!
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I was bored, so I built a chart that highlights "ADJUSTED BST".
The reasoning behind it is, outside of very case-specific situations (like Nidoking), most Pokemon run either a physical or a special set, and don't attempt to run mixed. You don't run mixed because you can't EV train for both offensive stats AND speed, while another team member probably specializes in the category you didn't, so running a subpar mixed stat has the opportunity cost of a utility or coverage move. Pokemon with both high ATK and SPA, have misleading BST, because in practice one of those stats goes to waste. I also calculate a "waste" percentage, or the percent decrease from BST the Pokemon goes by dropping either ATK or SPA. While this doesn't say a ton about distribution, it better captures distribution than unadjusted BST, so on the whole I think it's more informative. As you'd expect, at the top of the waste margin are Pokemon with high stats in both ATK and SpA. For Pokemon >600 BST, the average waste is 16.5%, and the median waste is 16.6%. Interestingly, Arceus, who is 120 in every stat, sits exactly at this median with 16.6% waste. So who is the most efficient at ATK-SpA distribution, here? Well, at the top of the list: 1. Heracross-Mega (6.6%) 2. Alakazam-Mega (8.3%) 3. Steelix-Mega (9.01%) 4. Aggron-Mega (9.52%) 5. Gallade-Mega (10.51%) 6. Gengar-Mega (10.83%) 7. Pinsir-Mega (10.83%) 8. Scizor-Mega (10.83%) 9. Gyarados-Mega (10.93%) 10. Aerodactyl-Mega (11.38%) Remember that base stats don't tell the whole story - in fact, they're probably the least important attribute now, behind Ability, Moves, Typing, Stat Distribution and Item - but I wouldn't have imagined this list at all. A bunch of physical attackers, some steel types, exclusively Megas. I think the Mega part is worth noting because since these guys can't hold an item, they need that efficiency to make up for a lack of Life Orb or Choice item. Next on the list (gonna stop at 20 for now: 11. Deoxys-D 12. Cresselia 13. Regigigas 14. Meloetta-Aria 15. Meloetta-Pirouette 16. Zygarde-Complete 17. Lugia 18. Latias 19. Garchomp 20. Zygarde-50% This part of the list (we're still not at 16.6%) is more interesting, with tiering all over the map. You have bulky psychics (Deoxys-D, Meloetta-A, Lugia, Latias, Cresselia), the game's premier wall (Zygarde-C) and his little brother (Zygarde-50%), a gimped golemn (Regi) and what looks like the best stated of the pseudo-legendaries. I'll work on this more tomorrow, maybe more interesting things will appear.
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ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望 今 信じあえる あきらめない 心かさね 永遠を抱きしめて Last edited by Doppleganger; 03-15-2018 at 06:13 AM. |
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