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Old 02-07-2015, 07:26 PM   #1
Talon87
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1. Over the past few months, I've heard several members bemoan the fact that I do not post in the Anime forum as often as I used to. My free time has declined while the number of people who want a piece of my free time has only continued to increase. It makes it impossible for me to do everything that I want to do, and one of the consequences has been that I have fallen weeks, in some cases even months behind on my once-regular Anime forum posts.

Furthermore, when it comes to getting my itches scratched for discussing the latest episodes of television I have seen, I have friends IRL who I discuss these shows with. For example, from this season alone, AK2 discusses Pokémon, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, Sailor Moon Crystal, and now Death Parade with me while a friend in town discusses Sailor Moon Crystal and Death Parade with me. That's two IRL conversations about the latest Death Parade episode each week, and each discussion tends to take anywhere from 30 to 60 minutes. It might sound ridiculous, I know -- taking twice the time to discuss the episode as the episode itself actually takes to play -- but the discussions are between enthusiasts of good storytelling. So when you figure that I am already taking anywhere between 60 and 120 minutes every week to discuss Episode X of a particular TV series, I think you can see why I might not feel motivated to allot further time to re-re-discussing it on UPN --

-- Especially when no one replies to me even when I do post. That's the killer. I can't even begin to count the number of times over the past few years where a thread has either begun, ended, or been its entire lifespan nothing but me de facto keeping a diary. Sometimes this is anticipated and I don't mind it -- if it's a story that I know nobody on UPN currently would enjoy except for me but I know that some older veterans would have loved it and/or I hope that some new members might show up one day and discover the thread, then sometimes I go ahead and make the thread anyway, faithfully replying with each new episode seen even though I'm just talking to the wall. But for the most part? I don't enjoy doing this.

I don't write posts just to sound smart or to hear myself talk. I write to reach out to others and engage in conversation. A conversation about a television show isn't a "Yeah, I liked it too " or a "Nice post, Taron." It's a back-and-forth exchange of thoughts, feelings, and ideas. I get this with my friends IRL, including AK2. I have not been getting this from UPN as of late, and most of the blame appears to fall on either 1) other people being too busy to post, just like me, or else 2) people relocating their activities from the forum proper to Skype.

2. Over the past year, it's come to my attention on numerous occasions that several members who used to be very active in the Anime forum along with many members from the PASBL and FB corners of the board have been enjoying discussing anime with fellow UPNers not in the Anime forum but on Skype. The members who used to be more active in Anime didn't, as far as I know, "quit Anime" or anything like that: they just seem to have naturally gravitated towards discussing their weekly shows on Skype with others. For some it might be because the friends they want to discuss the shows with will only post on Skype. For others it might be because they simply prefer the real-time, short-reply nature of an instant messaging client like Skype over the time-delayed, long-form nature of a forum post. I don't know: they'll have to tell us themselves why it is that they don't post in Anime as much as they used to yet continue to actively engage in Skype chats about anime.

But it's the second group I'm even more interested in. Those members who have rarely or even never at all set foot in the UPN Anime forum and yet who are clearly big fans of anime. It's very alien to me. Why do these members, most of them PASBL youngsters, not bother to post in the Anime forum? I used to think it was mostly to do with negative reasons, like them not liking particular Anime forum regulars -- or more specifically me. But recent posts have discredited this hypothesis for several of the members in Group 2. Some of the Group 2ers have, on rare occasion, gone so far as to make their very own threads in the Anime forum. Well that sure would seem to reject the theory. Others of the Group 2ers, some of whom I have never had a personal conversation with in my life, are amongst those who have recently reached out to me and said, "I miss reading your posts. " We can try to rationalize how someone might love to read my posts but hate my company, but let's not overthink things, shall we? ^^; I think we can agree that it's more likely the case that anyone who expresses a love for reading my posts would enjoy discussing them with me in a more engaging fashion (e.g. tabletop chat over coffee) as well.

3. I know it's been a lot of text to wade through thus far, but if you combine everything I've had to say in Sections 1 and 2, then we can move on to what I really would like to discuss: Responsibilities to the Anime forum (small scale), UPN (medium scale), and social circles in general (large scale). Forgive the thread title. I couldn't really think of something better.

Here are some of the questions that have been bugging me for the better part of the past year, and in particular the past few months as Anime has only continued to see a decline in user activity:

Q1. To what degree are posting responsibilities shared responsibilities? Reworded, what right does anyone have to ask me to prop a thread up on life support if they're not willing to commit equal or greater effort themselves?

Q2a. To what degree are the UPNers who discuss anime on Skype exclusively being jerks towards their fellow UPNers?

Q2b. To what degree are any of us jerks for discussing some things with some of our social circles but not with other, equally-eligible social circles. (Bolded and underscored for emphasis. Please: no replies about how there are some things you just can't/wouldn't choose to discuss with certain peers or family members. We're strictly talking about situations where you could just as well discuss a topic with Group A as with Group B but you exclude Group B and focus your energies strictly on Group A.) For example, if I choose to discuss the latest Lord of the Rings movie with hometown friends on Facebook but not with UPN -- even after I see that UPNers are discussing the film here -- does that make me a jerk?

Q2c. To what degree, if any, is the Skype-exclusive conversation meaningfully different from the IRL-exclusive or telephone-exclusive conversation? Example: in what ways, if any, is it different that I neglect to discuss a show on UPN that I am discussing with AK2 by telephone but some other UPNer neglects to discuss a show on UPN yet discusses it on Skype with other UPNers?

Q2d. If a thread for a particular anime exists in the Anime forum, and if someone then chooses to discuss the show actively on Skype with other UPNers but not on the forum, are they being a jerk towards those UPNers who post in the Anime thread but who are not part of the Skype chat?

Q3. Is it socially ostracizing to discuss a topic with some eligible members of a social circle but not others? (Bold and underscore for the same purpose as before.)

Q4a. To what degree, if any at all, do members of UPN "owe something" to UPN?

Q4b. To what degree is lurking permissible? To what degree is it impermissible?

Q4c. Is it ethical for someone to take, take, take in a relationship grounded in discussion when the other party makes clear that they are not happy to always give without reward? (Simple example: is it ethical for people to say they want me to keep posting in the Pokémon XY thread when they have not contributed previously nor do they contribute once I resume posting? The only replies to the XY thread since my latest episode review have been nothing but off-topic banter or the most superficial of on-topic remarks.)

Q5. Why aren't more UPNers posting in Anime?

Q5a. Is it because they dislike a specific member or group of members who post there?

Q5b. Is it because they fear that their views will be ridiculed or criticized?

Q5c. Is it because they don't enjoy the sorts of animes which most of the active Anime forum posters enjoy? Related, is it because they have not seen the animes which most of the active Anime forum posters have seen or are currently watching?

Q5d. Is it because they feel like they have to make a Talon-style post to be welcomed there? (Let's get this one out of the way: you don't. Take a look around at all of the recent uncriticized non-Talon-style posts made by myself or other members. Although maybe mine will mostly be my style after all ... >>; )

Q5e. Is it because they only come to UPN for the PASBL and/or FB chapter and so the rest of the forum is on Ignore for them?

Q5f. Is it because they were invited to the Skype chat first and they don't really see the reason in discussing the same topic twice just because not every UPNer is invited to the Skype chat?

4. A few closing remarks. First, this opening post has become much longer than I anticipated and it still doesn't cover all of my thoughts on the matter. (For starters, I've provided next to none of my personal answers to the questions written above!) I'm wrapping it up here because of length, but I have more to say and will be happy to answer any questions or concerns people may have. I hope that you'll take the thread seriously, particularly since ...

Second, I don't think of this as an Anime Forum Only kind of thread. If I did, I'd have just posted it in Anime. I'm posting it here specifically because I think that this phenomenon (of a "chat drain" from UPN to Skype) is also observable in several of the other forums on UPN, and I think that it's important for people to recognize it and discuss it, even if in wholly positive terms, rather than just pretending it isn't happening.

Third, I was much more negative towards the "chat drain" before several months ago. Then some things changed in my personal life and I came to terms with the fact that many of the same reasons I found myself less motivated to post in Anime than usual were possibly also affecting other members. I don't want anyone reading this thread to think that the thread is a categorical attack on Skype chat rooms (or more specifically Skype anime chat rooms). I myself am a member of a Kantai Collection chat room on Skype and am happy to be a part of it. I think that if Skype is what works best for you, then (in a sense) that's wonderful. I definitely would rather you keep chatting on Skype than not discussing your favorite games, movies, and TV shows period. But I just ... I dunno ... I have very conflicted feelings about the relationship between UPN the forum and UPN the Skype chat rooms. It is hard for me to justify in concrete and simple terms, but I just have the feeling that if Skype is robbing UPN of forum activity then Skype is a bad guy. But it is really, really very hard to defend this position once you take into account all of the instances in your own life where you discuss UPN-eligible topics with non-UPNers (or even with UPNers but off forum!) and then you don't return to UPN to discuss them a second time.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:38 PM   #2
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tl;dr
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:40 PM   #3
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tl;dr
If you can't take the thread seriously, you can sit this one out.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:42 PM   #4
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But I'm already sitting down, and it's cold outside.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:44 PM   #5
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But I'm already sitting down, and it's cold outside.
I'll ask you one last time to please not spam a thread you clearly have no interest in taking seriously.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:52 PM   #6
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But...how am I supposed to take something so fluffy seriously?

But no really, people are just gonna post wherever they wish. Skype is faster, easier to access and all around better. Debating about how and where people talk is just rather silly and considering yourself better because you do it one way or another is just arrogant and quite frankly stupid.
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Old 02-07-2015, 07:55 PM   #7
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In all honesty, it's just plain silly to say that everybody should have to talk to everybody about everything. I usually keep most of my talk of comp over on Serebii or Skype. I don't think I'm doing UPN a disservice by doing so- I really shouldn't feel obligated to post on UPN whenever I want to talk about something there's a thread here for. That would turn UPN into a chore and suck all the fun out of it.
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Old 02-07-2015, 08:15 PM   #8
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I skimmed through the OP. These bits stood out;

Quote:
For others it might be because they simply prefer the real-time, short-reply nature of an instant messaging client like Skype over the time-delayed, long-form nature of a forum post. I don't know: they'll have to tell us themselves why it is that they don't post in Anime as much as they used to yet continue to actively engage in Skype chats about anime.
This is it. This is it entirely. The forums are incredibly slow by comparison. Any actual conversation is 100% better suited to Skype, no exceptions.

Quote:
Q1. To what degree are posting responsibilities shared responsibilities? Reworded, what right does anyone have to ask me to prop a thread up on life support if they're not willing to commit equal or greater effort themselves?

Q2a. To what degree are the UPNers who discuss anime on Skype exclusively being jerks towards their fellow UPNers?
Nobody is required to post in forum threads. Skype is better suited for conversation. If you want to actually talk about it, it's probably worth downloading Skype and making a group to talk about [x] in, whether it's anime or ASB or anything, honestly.

UPN is UPN wherever it is because we aren't a website or a Skype group, we're a collection of people. I've been gone for a while but I don't see Skype's newfound usefulness as any sort of a bad thing.

/2cents
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Old 02-07-2015, 08:16 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Zelphon View Post
But...how am I supposed to take something so fluffy seriously?

But no really, people are just gonna post wherever they wish. Skype is faster, easier to access and all around better. Debating about how and where people talk is just rather silly and considering yourself better because you do it one way or another is just arrogant and quite frankly stupid.
You need to look at the Debate forum rules:
Quote:
1. Be Civil! This shouldn't need any explanation. Avoid ad homenem and other forms of direct attack. This is a debate forums, not a place for your petty fights. [...]

2. Stay on topic. [...]

3. Respect. From this point forward, there will be a strict policy on hateful speech directed towards any group, minority or person. You will be given a warning and the offending statements will be deleted. If you continue to offend, you will be banned from the forum for a week. Repeat offenses may be subject to harsher punishments or forum-wide bans.
You have repeatedly violated Rule 3, had been violating Rule 2 until your second warning, and have switched from that to violating Rule 1. I would discourage you from keeping this attitude up. I don't even know you very well -- there's no reason for us to be uncivil towards one another.

"Skype is faster, easier to access and all around better": Is it, though? Skype certainly isn't faster or easier to access when you're away from your desk. Mobile apps for Skype suck; using a mobile browser with the forum is far better for communicating when you're at work or school than either mobile Skype or workplace Skype is.

Also, if it's really "all around better," then why isn't the PASBL conducted exclusively through Skype? Why the heavy reliance on a web forum structure? There are reasons for it. Reasons grounded in web forums having particular strengths not afforded by P2P chat protocols. I think you're grossly oversimplifying the picture to say that Skype categorically kicks UPN's butt.

"considering yourself better because you do it one way or another is just arrogant and quite frankly stupid": I never said that I do this, and I don't do it. This was your Rule 1 violation right here, and you should cut this crap out. I understand that long posts can be too long to read for some people, but that doesn't give you permission to put the wrong words in my mouth when, in that tl;dr you conveniently chose not to read, I specifically stated that 1) I haven't given my answers to most of the questions provided and 2) were I to, most of my answers would be on the Skype users' side.

I think the problem is complex. There are obvious reasons why it is not rational to argue that someone should be "obligated" to post anything at all on UPN. Yet the very fabric of every society in the history of man is built on cooperation: if people don't work together, whether freely or under the sword, the society will invariably fall apart. The questions I ask myself include 1) how do we balance not obligating people to post here with the drain of conversation to other corners of the Internet and 2) should we even try to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Snorlax View Post
In all honesty, it's just plain silly to say that everybody should have to talk to everybody about everything. I usually keep most of my talk of comp over on Serebii or Skype. I don't think I'm doing UPN a disservice by doing so- I really shouldn't feel obligated to post on UPN whenever I want to talk about something there's a thread here for. That would turn UPN into a chore and suck all the fun out of it.
"It's just plain silly to say that everybody should have to talk to everybody about everything.": And I agree. Never mind silly: it's unfeasible. Even if you wanted to, you could not discuss everything with everyone. Never mind the fact that we don't want to, that we want to do other things with our time besides re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-discussing a topic with Friend No.47 because he hasn't gotten to hear our thoughts on it yet.

But the thing that strikes me as somewhat different about the relationship between UPN-vBulletin and UPN-Skype is that you have members of the same community (UPN) completely neglecting one platform for another; and the consequence has been that the one platform (UPN-vBulletin) has become a lopsided husk with all of its activity locked in to the two corners of the forum that really can't be easily relocated to Skype, and with every corner that is easily relocated to Skype being pretty much dead.

This is different from choosing to discuss a film with your mom and not with your best friend Joe. I'd say it's more akin to discussing a film with your mom on the car ride home and neglecting to discuss it with your dad and sister (as well as your mom) at dinner that night. What I'm wondering about is, in what sense are each of us "social jerks" for excluding Dad and Sis from a conversation that all three of Dad, Mom, and Sis could have been a part, would have enjoyed being a part, and with whom we could have discussed the topic all at once?

To use your Smogon analogy, I wouldn't expect you to discuss everything on UPN that you discuss on Smogon -- but if you're going to discuss the movie Die Hard in great detail with UPNers anyway, then I'm asking you why not go ahead and discuss it in the Entertainment forum? Why Skype or a phone call or a text message or FaceBook, etc? I think there are valid answers to this question -- don't think that I'm automatically saying it's UPN or die because I'm not -- but I'm posing this and the other questions to you and to everyone else with as little intended bias as possible.
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Old 02-07-2015, 08:50 PM   #10
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This is it. This is it entirely. The forums are incredibly slow by comparison. Any actual conversation is 100% better suited to Skype, no exceptions.
Benefits the forum has over Skype:
  • better legacy support: easier to locate old posts months to years later
  • it is easier to tell who is talking when thanks to visual cues like avatars, signatures, and font formatting that accompany posts
  • in any chat room, the loudest voice or most popular voice wins. In a thread, it is easier for quieter and less popular voices to be heard. Forum threads make it easier for multiple conversations to take place at once.
  • Forum threads also make it easier for people to revisit discussions tabled within the thread. Chat rooms suffer from the conversational phenomenon of the missed window: "Too much time has passed since then so I would look weird / pedantic / rude to revisit it now."
  • Forums typically display more text onscreen at once, enabling easier reading of longer submissions.
  • Forums enable everyone to discuss stories whenever they like without much fear of spoiling others. (Even in the days before spoiler tags, you'd just tag the top of your post with a big warning and people would know to avert their eyes instantly and scroll down until they made it past your post or to even back out of the thread altogether.) Skype and other chat rooms are really very bad about this: the chat room is either stifled by anti-spoiler paranoia until the slowest poke has finally caught up with the rest (by which time the earliest beavers may no longer even wish to discuss the episode) or else unavoidable spoilers present themselves in the chat room, forcing the slow poke to recuse himself/herself entirely from the chat room innumerable times throughout the season (since he/she will always be slower than the rest) or possibly permanently (if the story is one for which there are leaks). For media, one solution can be the creation of 2+ separate chat rooms, but for blanket chat rooms meant to cover an entire franchise (e.g. "the Type-Moon Chat Room" meant to cover all works of Kinoku Nasu), you encounter problems really fast. (Note: this complaint could be addressed by a Skype upgrade in the future. But until then ...!)
I could keep thinking up reasons why I think forums aren't going the way of the dodo any time soon, but I think this list is sufficient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 View Post
Nobody is required to post in forum threads. Skype is better suited for conversation. If you want to actually talk about it, it's probably worth downloading Skype and making a group to talk about [x] in, whether it's anime or ASB or anything, honestly.

UPN is UPN wherever it is because we aren't a website or a Skype group, we're a collection of people. I've been gone for a while but I don't see Skype's newfound usefulness as any sort of a bad thing.

/2cents
Well let's talk about this then. Here's a question for you: say Doppel, big bad birtha, and Talon87 are in one Skype chat room while Yuki, Kaisa, and Connor are in a second Skype chat room. What is it that leads you to discuss the latest episode of [X] in one of the two rooms but not the other? Why aren't you discussing it in both places? What leads you to make the choice that you make about where to discuss it? Would you agree that UPN becomes a fragmented community when people rely upon clique-ish means to chatting (like private Skype chat rooms) instead of relying upon globally-accessible forum threads? Do you feel a valid solution to this problem would be to have a UPN Skype chat room with every single member in it? And if so, what's to stop you or anyone else from simply making a new private chat room anyway and discussing the show exclusively there?

I'm wondering in part why people think it's okay to read my posts without engaging me in conversation even though I keep saying that I only write the posts in the hopes of having conversations. Why I should even bother to keep posting on UPN instead of going 100% private. I'm the fisherman and everybody else here are the fish in the river. Why is it fair that I should put bait on my fish hook 10,000 times a year but only get to reel in 1,000 fish? If I could relocate to a different pond where 10,000 baitings translates to 10,000 reeled-in fish, why shouldn't I do that?

The above paragraph isn't just about me either. I've framed it that way to make it easier to read, and because it's something I've wondered about a lot in recent months with all of the people saying they want to read what I have to say but they don't give back in equal (or anything near equal) measure. But it applies to everyone under the Sun. In sort of a "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality, I am wondering why I should continue to post on UPN instead of migrating to Skype -- and consequently fucking over every last person who has benefited from my posts being publicly available on UPN?

And there are answers I have come to regarding the above questions. But, as with so many of the other questions in this thread, I don't want to bias or lead too much. These questions are meant to generate conversation.
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Old 02-07-2015, 09:30 PM   #11
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(Double post, but it's relevant to what Tyoyo discussed and I replied to, so you can think of it as a Part II.)

One of the greatest advantages in the web forum over P2P communication is being able to broadcast a message to your entire community. Provided you are not posting in a private-access subforum, the entire membership can see whatever it is that you've just had to say. Thus, you can hold your conversation with n many people one time.

Let's take the Legend of Korra as a simple example. I could have discussed the newest episode with Loki on Skype, one on one. I could have also discussed it with Concept that way. I could've also discussed it with Tdos, with empoleon dynamite, with Schadenfreude all via Skype. But unless every last one of them were in the same chat room, I couldn't have contacted them all at once. With the forum, I could have.

"But Talon!" you protest. "It'd be so easy to have them all be in the same chat room!" Alright, but what about newcomers? What happens when you add somebody new to a Skype chat room? Usually they can't peer that far back into the past. (Unless things have wildly changed with recent Skype upgrades.) Usually their accessible history begins with the moment they joined the room. Which means that if they want to discuss an episode with you long after you saw it, you can't easily direct them to your thoughts on it nor can they dig it up for themselves even if they wanted to. You're burdened with trying to scroll back up through months, even years of Skype chat log history just to find a few paragraphs to copy and paste for this person. Otherwise you give them a two-sentence reply because time has made you forget a lot of the specifics. Well they don't want that. They want the real deal. And a forum makes getting that real deal easy.

The other problem with Skype is that it's too prone to people spinning off a (more) private chat room from an older, more inclusive one when parties in the bigger chat room dislike each other. This is a social solution in the most obvious sense -- you separate people who don't get along with one another -- but because most people don't care to copy and paste their conversations again and again you wind up with the same problems I've been mentioning all thread long. An easy enough example to point out is with Fizzy Bubbles: there was a nearly-global chat room made where almost every single person was invited; then there was a second chat room made by someone else who didn't want certain people in the previous room to be there; and then there was a third chat room made by someone who didn't like the way that that second chat room was operating. So you had THREE Fizzy Bubbles Skype chat rooms (and you would've had four had the staff ever shown up to the original vision for the first one, I can guarantee you), and because of all the spinnings off you wound up with three really fragmented rooms. Using numbers to map it out more easily ( 1 --> 2 --> 3 ), anyone who was in Room No.3 would only ever talk in Room No.2 if someone not invited to Room No.3 spoke there; and anyone who was in Room No.2 would only ever talk in Room No.1 if someone not invited to Room No.2 spoke there.

Now take this social drama ... and apply it to the discussion of a popular film or TV series. Take Star Wars Episode 7, for example. If everyone on UPN were to discuss that film in its official thread in the Entertainment forum, then we would all know what everyone else was thinking about the episode. There'd be equal access to all of the information, and no one would ever have to discuss the movie more than once (at least as far as UPNers are concerned). But now imagine it with Skype. Imagine you have your PASBL chat room ... and you have your FB chat room ... and you have your Britpack chat room that you are a part of ... and finally you have your Star Wars fan club chat room that only seven UPNers are in. We already see what's going to happen just by comparing the two TOs (PASBL's and FB's): you're only going to discuss the movie in great detail in one place. And then when people ask to know your thoughts on the film, you've either got to waste time re-inventing the wheel (ugh) or else waste time digging up your old Skype posts (ugh) or else give them a half-assed, barebones response (NEU). See? They all suck. ^^; None of them are as good as if you had just posted in the Star Wars 7 thread to begin with.

Cliques are inevitable in any society. People get on each other's nerves and people seek avenues to discuss their favorite things without the presence of their least favorite people. The problem that I worry about is that Skype, in empowering groups of people to preclude their least favorite people from conversation, results in too much fragmentation of community discussion. It's basically the problem I mentioned in my very first post for why I have been tardy with some of my anime posts in recent months: after I discuss a show twice with two different IRL friends, I often don't feel like discussing it a third time here. I worry that this is already happening with Skype and the Anime forum, and I worry about the possible impact Skype will have on future topics of discussion for the community.
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Old 02-07-2015, 09:38 PM   #12
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Going to take time reading Talon's post, but preliminary attitude:

I joined "The Animu Chat" for Skype for at least a year because of the Anime Forum decline but my tolerance for Skype's UI BS was so low I removed the whole program about a month and a half ago.

While in the chat, I felt like the level of anime discussion wasn't really what I was expecting. Sure, we did talk about it, but not to the degree than Yotsuba's /a/ would (which is perhaps unfair comparison, but I can't help that) or what I'd discuss on AIM with BBB or BPK.

My own anime forum decline has been a function of five factors:

1) The gradual decay of anime quality each season, with fewer shows worth watching and fewer shows friends congregate toward at the same time
2) The KT Extinction of anime-original material, which is spoiler-proof.
3) Turbulent times - over the past year I've finished up my education and got a job, and will still be intensely focused on future prospects.
4) Related to #1/#2...focus on writing my own original work, in part due to frustration at not reading media up to my own personal standards.
5) Taste maturity and close-mindedness. I find I'm less tolerant of anime/manga that put me in uncomfortable situations. So, I'm naturally trying to move away from anime that would thrust me in emotional highs/lows. Which I will have to fight tooth and nail to overcome to really broaden my interests.

Spoiler: show
#5 is pretty ironic to me because my VN title is Jinsei wa Hikikomogomo, liberal English as Life is Bittersweet and literally translated as "Life is a Cycle of Highs and Lows".
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:13 PM   #13
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My own anime forum decline has been a function of five factors:

1) The gradual decay of anime quality each season, with fewer shows worth watching and fewer shows friends congregate toward at the same time
2) The KT Extinction of anime-original material, which is spoiler-proof.
3) Turbulent times - over the past year I've finished up my education and got a job, and will still be intensely focused on future prospects.
4) Related to #1/#2...focus on writing my own original work, in part due to frustration at not reading media up to my own personal standards.
5) Taste maturity and close-mindedness. I find I'm less tolerant of anime/manga that put me in uncomfortable situations. So, I'm naturally trying to move away from anime that would thrust me in emotional highs/lows. Which I will have to fight tooth and nail to overcome to really broaden my interests.
The reasons provided above do not explain away the fact that you continue to discuss anime via AIM with Mcsweeney and bbb, though, as you have done for years. So I guess I have two questions:

First, while the five reasons provided above may explain a decline in your enthusiasm to discuss anime period, what additional reasons are there which would explain why you prefer to discuss things one-on-one and in private via AIM vs. one-on-all and in public via the forum?

Second, if we were to dial the clock back to 2006 and predominantly remove the list of five above, what reasons can you give me for why a two-platform solution (AIM and vBulletin) is/was preferable to a single-platform solution of just AIM? In other words, since AIM clearly has its merits, why didn't you just stick to AIM in 2006 and why shouldn't you just stick to AIM in 2015 even if we could delete all five of the listed factors above?
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:31 PM   #14
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Q1. To what degree are posting responsibilities shared responsibilities? Reworded, what right does anyone have to ask me to prop a thread up on life support if they're not willing to commit equal or greater effort themselves?
I feel like if you make a post on a forum, that is an invitation for discussion, so someone should do more than just read it. Forums aren't blog posts, where someone says something and people decide to comment at their leisure.

However, while you levy that burden on the community, it's a slippery slope with the individual posters. Often, I want to address every post I can that's posted in the Anime forum. But more often I can add very little in utility to the topic than other people - consider KanColle, which KA has been pioneering but I haven't found any enthusiasm to continue. My opinions 100% overlap with BBB's, so at best I could post and say "I agree with everything BBB says". So, there's a regression toward not posting since I feel like other posters could provide my views better, on a topic I do not feel strongly towards.

I guess a decent analogy is someone bad at math trying to help someone out on a math topic. Do you consider any help helpful, or that a person knows so little they're risking teaching an incorrect method?

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Q2a. To what degree are the UPNers who discuss anime on Skype exclusively being jerks towards their fellow UPNers?
I can't really offer any commentary on this matter. For "The Animu Chat" nobody was ever a jerk.

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Q2b. To what degree are any of us jerks for discussing some things with some of our social circles but not with other, equally-eligible social circles. (Bolded and underscored for emphasis. Please: no replies about how there are some things you just can't/wouldn't choose to discuss with certain peers or family members. We're strictly talking about situations where you could just as well discuss a topic with Group A as with Group B but you exclude Group B and focus your energies strictly on Group A.) For example, if I choose to discuss the latest Lord of the Rings movie with hometown friends on Facebook but not with UPN -- even after I see that UPNers are discussing the film here -- does that make me a jerk?
Well, that depends. Sometimes I discuss things with BPK before talking about it in the forum because I have immediate access to him, and I've probably already said what I'm telling him on the forum. Like with his Steins;Gate query, he asked me on the forum and I answered him in AIM with a rehash of what I told you, LBC, BBB a while back.

If I open a post with, "as I discussed with BBB/BPK over AIM" or something, if people find that offensive that's fairly easy behaviour to excise.

In general though, I would not feel jealous if someone discussed something privately with another person. We're not talking romance and liaisons, we're talking anime and manga.

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Q2c. To what degree, if any, is the Skype-exclusive conversation meaningfully different from the IRL-exclusive or telephone-exclusive conversation? Example: in what ways, if any, is it different that I neglect to discuss a show on UPN that I am discussing with AK2 by telephone but some other UPNer neglects to discuss a show on UPN yet discusses it on Skype with other UPNers?
How I'd rank my experiences:

AIM > Yotsuba > Forum > IRC > Skype > Blog

Skype and IRC are too chaotic and do not form "sub-threads" in the way a forum or Yotsuba can. Sometimes, you say something and that comment is completely glossed over. On a chan, someone can pick out your comment and engage you in one-on-one conversation within the topic. AIM is exclusively one-on-one, and forums are flexible to be anything from blogs (opinion with commentary and maybe some rebuttles) to a yotsuba sub-thread cable, when tangents are taken into account. It's just that forums are naturally slower paced.

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Q2d. If a thread for a particular anime exists in the Anime forum, and if someone then chooses to discuss the show actively on Skype with other UPNers but not on the forum, are they being a jerk towards those UPNers who post in the Anime thread but who are not part of the Skype chat?
This depends on what certain users prefer. It takes two to tango. If everyone who likes an anime prefers Skype, and they all watch it together (Kagerou Project, Hamatora) Skype is the best option. For almost every other situation I'd say forum.

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Q3. Is it socially ostracizing to discuss a topic with some eligible members of a social circle but not others? (Bold and underscore for the same purpose as before.)
No commento. I'm an insane old man. Let the youngin's speak for themselves 'ere.

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Q4a. To what degree, if any at all, do members of UPN "owe something" to UPN?
I think if you post and don't treat it like a blog post, there is some expectation, but you should be situationally aware of the community's attitudes so your post won't be neglected.

One of the toughest anime I've wanted to comment on is Hanasaku Iroha - after the high reviews of it, I downloaded the whole show, but I've scarcely tried to attempt it because it's too emotionally distressful for me to watch. It's not fun and I don't really want to go in the topic and treat it like I need a support group. So I've kind of left everyone hanging with that status.

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Q4b. To what degree is lurking permissible? To what degree is it impermissible?
Always permissible. I feel like in an ideal world, topics should not reflect the topic creator's view-count, or the view count of bots. That way, even if someone doesn't post, you know someone unique looked at your topic, so your words were not just ignored.

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Q4c. Is it ethical for someone to take, take, take in a relationship grounded in discussion when the other party makes clear that they are not happy to always give without reward? (Simple example: is it ethical for people to say they want me to keep posting in the Pokémon XY thread when they have not contributed previously nor do they contribute once I resume posting? The only replies to the XY thread since my latest episode review have been nothing but off-topic banter or the most superficial of on-topic remarks.)
I have dropped XY and so withdrawn my emotional investment in it. Speaking as a now-bystander, reading your posts makes me bitter and frustrated toward ShoPro and brings up the bad memories of why I dropped Pokemon during Johto, which effectively ended the magic of the franchise for me. I appreciate that you are effectively providing a "service" so I don't have to go through these experiences first-hand - and serve to remind me that a lot of the meta attitudes toward Pokemon shouldn't impact its basic enjoyment - but I would personally prefer if XY was put out of mind. My personality isn't such that I enjoy hoping futility that some change will happen. I'm the kind of person who would sooner force change than wait for it.

I don't speak for anyone else in this, others certainly have different attitudes.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Q5. Why aren't more UPNers posting in Anime?
See preliminary post.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Q5a. Is it because they dislike a specific member or group of members who post there?
Let me use my relationship with PASBL as a proxy for this - I don't dislike a specific member or group, but there's a meta to PASBL and because I'm competitive by nature, I don't want to go through the growing pains needed to acquire the intuition for that meta. Historically, I've always portrayed a "joke character" in PASBL but my competitive streak always comes through in the end and ruins it.

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Q5b. Is it because they fear that their views will be ridiculed or criticized?
This might be the case. For me, I enjoy being brutally honest about things even if I have the tact to be a lot more accommodating. I shouldn't rain on someone's parade as much as I do, but I'm sooooo cynical toward everything these days!

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Q5c. Is it because they don't enjoy the sorts of animes which most of the active Anime forum posters enjoy? Related, is it because they have not seen the animes which most of the active Anime forum posters have seen or are currently watching?
I adamantly maintain that older titles are the way to go in anime creativity droughts. Like, you still haven't seen Princess Tutu! A title like that would definitely get everyone out of the woodwork to talk about it, because everyone I've met has some view on the title.

Going season-to-season is going to have variable results, unfortunately. Limiting pallates to newer shows naturally curtails the number of available interests.

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Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Q5d. Is it because they feel like they have to make a Talon-style post to be welcomed there? (Let's get this one out of the way: you don't. Take a look around at all of the recent uncriticized non-Talon-style posts made by myself or other members. Although maybe mine will mostly be my style after all ... >>; )
No opinion. Big or small, all of my posts I try to incorporate a "humourful" wise-arse approach. That's kind of been my signature, such as how the Great Wall of In-Depth Analysis has been yours.

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Q5e. Is it because they only come to UPN for the PASBL and/or FB chapter and so the rest of the forum is on Ignore for them?
I got nothing.

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Q5f. Is it because they were invited to the Skype chat first and they don't really see the reason in discussing the same topic twice just because not every UPNer is invited to the Skype chat?
For titles I really like, or have strong opinions toward, I'm more than willing to give those opinions twice. For titles I feel weakly toward - weak dislike, weak like - I'm less inclined to do so.
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:40 PM   #15
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I'm not totally invested in this topic because to me, it really doesn't matter to me if someone wants to discuss something over Skype than on the forums. I find it hard to collect my points especially on Anime so its a lot easier for me to discuss something like MCA on Skype where I can just type my thoughts out as they come.

I will post both in the YGO chat and the YGO thread but for different reasons. Usually I type small blurbs into the YGO chat about duels or deckbuilding but tend to crosspost news and keep more theory-oh posts to the thread (which no one reads or reply to anyways so).

But in the end, people are going to use what they are going to use, and at the end of the day, this is just a forum. There is no obligation to post here and there is no reason to call people who talk about something consistently on Skype jerks or that they are dicking people over. That's petty.
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:44 PM   #16
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Thanks very much for your thoughtful replies, everyone who has done so so far.

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There is no reason to call people who talk about something consistently on Skype jerks or that they are dicking people over. That's petty.
No one has yet done this. In the likely event that you are implying I did so: I would appreciate it if people could learn to tell the difference between a posed question and a held view. I would also appreciate it if people did not create straw men.
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:48 PM   #17
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There is no reason to use that language in the first place. Not saying you held that view, but I disagree heavily with the language used.

EDIT: Not explained properly, but you and I both know that how a question is phrased is going to influence people's opinions on a topic, and other people are going to take it (and they have, trust me) as you are saying they are jerks for using Skype, but only because people are human and we can't read your mind. Be mindful of stuff like that.
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:54 PM   #18
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For once, Zelphon is right.

Look, not to say forums are obsolete, because clearly they're not, and of course they can offer advantages. But what we're talking about is for actual conversation. This isn't heavy breakdown doctoral theses. This is idle chat, sometimes significant discussions, but starts small. And, especially for those of us who hate walls of nothing but someone's text making everything run together. It allows for better flow of conversation.

Clearly, we very well need the forums for most things. But saying that everyone who likes anime should have a duty to post in the Anime forum all the time? Once it starts to become a chore, it will wear on people.

Signing up on UPN isn't a contract of exclusivity. I doubt many here would swear an oath on forum-monogamy.

> No one has yet done this. In the likely event that you are implying I did so: I would appreciate it if people could learn to tell the difference between a posed question and a held view. I would also appreciate it if people did not create straw men.

It was a very accusatory-posed question,
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Old 02-07-2015, 10:58 PM   #19
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The reasons provided above do not explain away the fact that you continue to discuss anime via AIM with Mcsweeney and bbb, though, as you have done for years.
Before I answer the questions, that's an issue of quantity over quality.

When I talk to BBB/BPK, most of the discussions with meat are on non-anime topics. My anime discussions with BBB, while plentiful, you can't really sink your teeth into:

Spoiler: show

Quote:
Originally Posted by AIM
Dark Chromium Dragonite: Arse Class dropped! Yay!
big bad birtha: Yeah...
big bad birtha: Oh, Princess Precure was okay.
big bad birtha: Not much super special, but it hasn't offended me, which is a plus!
big bad birtha: The battle scene was nice at the very least.
Dark Chromium Dragonite: I remember Smile starting out pretty promising too. But I disagree with you on one part.
Dark Chromium Dragonite: Princess PreCure has already shown its true colours: Pink, Yellow, Blue
big bad birtha: I'm just disappointed in the blue. We're introduced to an adorable blue roommate, but instead we get a different blue!


That's a day's convo. "You dropped this bad title!" "Yeah it sucked, also this title was okay" "that's good to hear".

When there's a powerful anime, there is powerful discussion. But when there's a lot of meh, it's just okay. You know?

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First, while the five reasons provided above may explain a decline in your enthusiasm to discuss anime period, what additional reasons are there which would explain why you prefer to discuss things one-on-one and in private via AIM vs. one-on-all and in public via the forum?
AIM is more subject to tangents, which these days have more depth than anime discussion. For ANIME SPECIFIC discussions, I still prefer the forum. I don't like having to forget stuff in chats and be arsed to open up the history, and I sometimes like reading my own posts to remind myself how I felt toward something.

Like, if BBB says he likes something, I encourage him to post about it. I just don't feel comfortable talking a ton about anime/manga on AIM unless I have no other option to meet someone (like Malcom).

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Second, if we were to dial the clock back to 2006 and predominantly remove the list of five above, what reasons can you give me for why a two-platform solution (AIM and vBulletin) is/was preferable to a single-platform solution of just AIM? In other words, since AIM clearly has its merits, why didn't you just stick to AIM in 2006 and why shouldn't you just stick to AIM in 2015 even if we could delete all five of the listed factors above?
Back in 2006, I did not have as many dedicated friends on AIM that I do now. BBB joined in 2007, and BPK joined abut two years ago. Most of my AIM contacts were holdovers from BMG and Likwid RPG maker, and I primarily kept in contact with them on the forums since they moved on to other IM chats.

Forums had a naturally bigger appeal because of the wider community and lack of a standardized IM tool. I've always used Trillian because I can talk to anyone, anywhere except on a phone or with Skype, but most of my friends on chat came from the forum.
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Old 02-07-2015, 11:03 PM   #20
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Since I'm largely the one "responsible" for the initial Animé Forum/Skype divide, I suppose I should answer as this seems to be directed mainly at Animé. Let me start by clearing a few misconceptions, piggybacking off Dopple's comments:

1) The "Animu Chat", despite its name, is rarely actually used to discuss animé. It's evolved into more of a private chatroom for close friends and contacts, and has seen an increasing decline in activity for a number of reasons. If Dopple thought we didn't talk a lot about animé when he was around, it's certainly much less now.

2) My own inactivity has little to do with Skype, as I find myself spending less time there as well, and even took a break from the main UPN chatroom for a few months. I think in general UPN's populace has been growing less active on both the Forum and Skype for their own reasons or another, as even the main chat has been far slower than it used to be.

3) One reason for this may be the introduction of many members to tumblr. I can't speak for others, but I've personally all but migrated completely over to that site. Whether it's merely a fad or not remains to be seen, but it's been my way of keeping occupied/distracted at least for the past several months.

4) Similar to Dopple, my loss of interest in animé/entertainment recently runs both deep and superficial. I've been busy with school as well, and I've spoken to you about the more confidential matter before. As an update, the situation has not changed much, and I don't foresee it resolving in the near future.

5) As Dopple mentioned, the current quality of animé in general is another contributing factor. Even disregarding my bias, I feel there's not much that stands out in this season that makes me eager to watch it, let alone converse in-depth. (In fact I was just discussing this with a friend on Skype the other day, how there's nothing exciting going on atm for us to mutually get invested in.)

None of this is meant to deny your frustration, which is understandable, especially as this issue predates even before the conception of the "Animu Chat". I'm just trying to clarify the circumstances as they stand. I've been frustrated on and off as well over the past year, wanting to talk to people about my hobbies but feeling disappointed and isolated whenever they don't reciprocate, so I've just sorta given up at this point. I realize it's hypocritical of me and to a major extent simply overreacting, but the fact remains I have next to no motivation to post opinions on UPN and/or Skype anymore. There's a Zelda post I was working on for the Milk Bar thread, but due to both lack of time and enthusiasm it's been sitting unfinished for weeks. I just don't feel like talking about my pastimes anymore - as the word implies, they have passed or will (be) pass(ed) over, and I'd rather not deal with/face that inevitability on my own terms, however selfish and misguided that perspective may be.

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Old 02-07-2015, 11:37 PM   #21
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There is no reason to use that language in the first place. Not saying you held that view, but I disagree heavily with the language used.

EDIT: Not explained properly, but you and I both know that how a question is phrased is going to influence people's opinions on a topic, and other people are going to take it (and they have, trust me) as you are saying they are jerks for using Skype, but only because people are human and we can't read your mind. Be mindful of stuff like that.
The language is not super harsh and I don't like the sugarcoating you're advocating. Insofar as we take people's emotions seriously, and I do, I don't think it makes much difference whether we ask any one of the following permutations:
  • Are people who do what you do jerks?
  • Are people who do what you do immoral?
  • Are people who do what you do inconsiderate?
  • Are people who do what you do unfair?
  • Are people who do what you do bad people?
That's what it all boils down to in the end: when you match a specific behavior to an unfavorable judgment, and when your reader recognizes that he/she does that behavior, it's the case for 99% of us that we feel like we've been personally attacked. "He asked if this thing I do is not a nice thing to do. Therefore he's asking if I am not a nice person. Therefore he thinks I'm not a nice person, as if he thought I was a nice person he would not have asked the question to begin with."

I can't really help the fact that that emotional cascade takes place. What I can help is to set straight where I stand in relation to the cascade. No, I'm not calling anybody who does this blanket bad people. And no, I am definitely not asking questions only because I already hold a specific answer in mind that you think you know based on word choice. It is too early in this debate for me to want to steer the conversation by telling you guys my own personal answers (or lack of answers) to all of the questions poised. But seeing as I won't dodge questions put to me either, let's go ahead and get this first second (and possibly most misunderstood) one out of the way, huh?

Quote:
Q2a. To what degree are the UPNers who discuss anime on Skype exclusively being jerks towards their fellow UPNers?

Q2b. To what degree are any of us jerks for discussing some things with some of our social circles but not with other, equally-eligible social circles. (Bolded and underscored for emphasis. Please: no replies about how there are some things you just can't/wouldn't choose to discuss with certain peers or family members. We're strictly talking about situations where you could just as well discuss a topic with Group A as with Group B but you exclude Group B and focus your energies strictly on Group A.) For example, if I choose to discuss the latest Lord of the Rings movie with hometown friends on Facebook but not with UPN -- even after I see that UPNers are discussing the film here -- does that make me a jerk?
Quick side note: I would have hoped that the juxtaposition of Q2a with Q2b would have made it clear that I do not hold myself above the law and that I am as ready to accept the verdicts I dish out as I am ready to dish them out provided the evidence is sound and present.

A2a. No one is intentionally being a jerk. And I don't think anyone can rightly be said to be unintentionally a jerk either. Fundamentally, people who seek to discuss their hobbies and pastimes on Skype are no different from those who seek to discuss them via the forum, via Facebook, via telephone, via e-mail, in person, and so on. The love of communication is our common thread. I have given much thought as to whether they are being selfish or not, but at the end of the day the only verdicts I can reach are a) "no more selfish than you are, Talon" and/or b) "only selfish if we can call 'opting for the preferred means of communication' 'selfish'."

The best case for intentional jerkishness would be if any of the anime chat rooms had been provably exclusionist, i.e. had denied entry to any UPN forumgoers who sought it. But that cannot be proven -- and that's principally because entry has been offered not only to all who sought it but even to some who didn't seek it. Anyone who wanted to join has always been welcome to. There has never been any provable deliberate ostracization. (Unlike with various FB spinoff chats and other UPN Skype chats that were provably created with the intention of letting some but not others in.)

While I am confident that there have been private anime "chat rooms" on Skype, I use the air quotes specifically because the rooms I have in mind are ones with populations of only two or three people -- "chat rooms" that can be better thought of as three-way phone calls between three friends and which have much more in common with the privacy of an AIM conversation than the publicity of a chat room. I myself have been in a few of these "chat rooms" from time to time, and I do not hold myself nor my cohorts to be jerks.

A2b. The only difference I see -- and I think that, like a hairline fracture, this small difference is the biggest thing that nags at me -- is that UPN and non-UPN circles are different from UPN and sub-UPN circles. That's the issue. If we hold Skype and the cell phone to be equivalent, then exonerating the phone caller must mean we exonerate the Skype chatter as well. The only possible grounds for condemning the Skype chatter and not the phone caller is that the phone caller is using the telephone to call someone who is not a part of the UPN community whereas the Skype chatter is using Skype to discuss topics with some UPNers to the exclusion of others. (See above; A2a.)

Problem is, I personally use the telephone to talk with AK2 -- who is a UPNer. A retired one, sure, but one who technically has a Kuno-era account that he logs into from time to time. (Heck, he's even made a post or two in the last few months.) So the telephone argument fails if it hinges on the claim that it's only being used for conversations with non-UPNers.

And so confronting the question of whether I think I am a jerk for discussing things with AK2 that I could just as easily discuss on UPN: it's ... complicated. :\ That's pretty much the verdict I reach. I don't think of myself as a jerk for doing it, no, but ... I guess what I'd say is, in an ideal world, I would share my thoughts equally between all willing recipients. But we don't live in an ideal world, and I'm not a jerk for having very limited free time and having to make choices about who I'm going to prioritize. Even if UPN were giving me what I'd ask for, if I had to pick between AK2 and UPN I'd pick AK2. Picking AK2 when UPN has been letting me down as of late is a no-brainer. Do I want to have to pick? No. But I have to. And so I do. Does that make me a jerk? I'd like to think it doesn't. But ...

... I do feel like I am letting UPN down. I feel like, per the idea of "be[ing] the change you want to see in the world," I ought to give UPN my all if I want to hope that everyone else will even give it half of their all. It breaks my heart to see the game chapters of the forum so utterly disinterested in the rest of the forum, to see the old UPN veterans having all left for the Grey Havens, to see that even Kuno and Loki hardly post here anymore, that new members have no idea who Morgoth is, and that all of my efforts to keep people posting in the forum proper are too often met with contempt and derision. But I feel like ... rather than "if I don't try, no one else will," it's perhaps both that and the opposite: "if I do try, others will be inspired to try too."
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:31 AM   #22
Snorby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
The language is not super harsh and I don't like the sugarcoating you're advocating. Insofar as we take people's emotions seriously, and I do, I don't think it makes much difference whether we ask any one of the following permutations:
  • Are people who do what you do jerks?
  • Are people who do what you do immoral?
  • Are people who do what you do inconsiderate?
  • Are people who do what you do unfair?
  • Are people who do what you do bad people?
Why's it so hard to say:

"What do you guys think of the shift from thread activity to activity through other mediums, such as Skype? Do you think it's healthy for UPN's community? Why or Why not?"

That has no real bias to it, and encompasses the majority of what you laid out in that gargantuan OP. Unlike the OP, there's also much less risk for someone to take it the wrong way.
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:58 AM   #23
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May as well have a crack at this, warning: May contain high amounts of stupidity, wrongness, and other assorted things that may make some punch the screen. Spoilering because long post. And take what I say with a grain of salt, as I haven't been on UPN for as long as other posters.

Spoiler: show
Q1. To what degree are posting responsibilities shared responsibilities? Reworded, what right does anyone have to ask me to prop a thread up on life support if they're not willing to commit equal or greater effort themselves?

Eh, if they're demanding a thread out of you and aren't willing to contribute or add to the discussion, I'd say it's fine to ignore those requests and move it to VM/PM's or other forms of IM's.

Q2a. To what degree are the UPNers who discuss anime on Skype exclusively being jerks towards their fellow UPNers?

None of them? I don't think there's any written rule about having to discuss anime on UPN upon joining. It's probably easier for them to quickly type messages instead of full blown posts like the regular anime posters.

Q2b. To what degree are any of us jerks for discussing some things with some of our social circles but not with other, equally-eligible social circles. (Bolded and underscored for emphasis. Please: no replies about how there are some things you just can't/wouldn't choose to discuss with certain peers or family members. We're strictly talking about situations where you could just as well discuss a topic with Group A as with Group B but you exclude Group B and focus your energies strictly on Group A.) For example, if I choose to discuss the latest Lord of the Rings movie with hometown friends on Facebook but not with UPN -- even after I see that UPNers are discussing the film here -- does that make me a jerk?

It doesn't make you a jerk, if you feel like discussing something with specific people, I don't think I have a right to judge.

Q2c. To what degree, if any, is the Skype-exclusive conversation meaningfully different from the IRL-exclusive or telephone-exclusive conversation? Example: in what ways, if any, is it different that I neglect to discuss a show on UPN that I am discussing with AK2 by telephone but some other UPNer neglects to discuss a show on UPN yet discusses it on Skype with other UPNers?

Well, on Skype, it's far easier to type up your thoughts as you think of them without having to worry about the finer details (Oh boy here's where my stupid starts to show), while on UPN, you usually have to make a decent effort to write up a post which properly explains your thoughts...idk maybe I'm sounding like an idiot.

Q2d. If a thread for a particular anime exists in the Anime forum, and if someone then chooses to discuss the show actively on Skype with other UPNers but not on the forum, are they being a jerk towards those UPNers who post in the Anime thread but who are not part of the Skype chat?

Nope, not at all, at least in my view. They can do what they want, I'm not really judging them.

Q3. Is it socially ostracizing to discuss a topic with some eligible members of a social circle but not others? (Bold and underscore for the same purpose as before.)

I think I explained this in my earlier answers.

Q4a. To what degree, if any at all, do members of UPN "owe something" to UPN?

Not sure how I can answer this, so going to have to pass.

Q4b. To what degree is lurking permissible? To what degree is it impermissible?

Lurking is fine with me, I joined SPPf because I lurked the Pokemon anime forum because of XY and I wanted to join the discussions.

Q4c. Is it ethical for someone to take, take, take in a relationship grounded in discussion when the other party makes clear that they are not happy to always give without reward? (Simple example: is it ethical for people to say they want me to keep posting in the Pokémon XY thread when they have not contributed previously nor do they contribute once I resume posting? The only replies to the XY thread since my latest episode review have been nothing but off-topic banter or the most superficial of on-topic remarks.)

It's not ethical for them to keep requesting you do this if they're not even trying to contribute. If they want to hear your thoughts, they could ask in PM's.

Q5. Why aren't more UPNers posting in Anime?

Probably because Skype is easier I guess?

Q5a. Is it because they dislike a specific member or group of members who post there?

Possibly, but again I can't speak for everyone.

Q5b. Is it because they fear that their views will be ridiculed or criticized?

Oh this is me in a nutshell (Ash fanboy 4lyfe)

Q5c. Is it because they don't enjoy the sorts of animes which most of the active Anime forum posters enjoy? Related, is it because they have not seen the animes which most of the active Anime forum posters have seen or are currently watching?

Same deal with me, I don't watch much of the recent anime and I don't think I'd enjoy most of them. But I haven't watched them for real, so who knows how'd I feel after watching?

Q5d. Is it because they feel like they have to make a Talon-style post to be welcomed there? (Let's get this one out of the way: you don't. Take a look around at all of the recent uncriticized non-Talon-style posts made by myself or other members. Although maybe mine will mostly be my style after all ... >>; )

Nah.

Q5e. Is it because they only come to UPN for the PASBL and/or FB chapter and so the rest of the forum is on Ignore for them?

Could be true for some, I usually don't post outside of PASBL save for some threads that catch my eyes, I do read some of the threads that also look interesting.

Q5f. Is it because they were invited to the Skype chat first and they don't really see the reason in discussing the same topic twice just because not every UPNer is invited to the Skype chat?

Again, there's no real answer for this but it is very much possible.
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Old 02-08-2015, 03:10 AM   #24
big bad birtha
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Q1. To what degree are posting responsibilities shared responsibilities? Reworded, what right does anyone have to ask me to prop a thread up on life support if they're not willing to commit equal or greater effort themselves?

I don't think anyone has any real responsibilities about posting. If they want to post, go for it. If not, then that's fine.

Q2a. To what degree are the UPNers who discuss anime on Skype exclusively being jerks towards their fellow UPNers?

I don't know. Skype is easier, and they're more likely to get input through skype. It might not be very substantial, but you get something. I'm often more likely to just yammer on to Doppel in AIM about something just because he's going to respond, even if he doesn't give a damn.

Q2b. To what degree are any of us jerks for discussing some things with some of our social circles but not with other, equally-eligible social circles. (Bolded and underscored for emphasis. Please: no replies about how there are some things you just can't/wouldn't choose to discuss with certain peers or family members. We're strictly talking about situations where you could just as well discuss a topic with Group A as with Group B but you exclude Group B and focus your energies strictly on Group A.) For example, if I choose to discuss the latest Lord of the Rings movie with hometown friends on Facebook but not with UPN -- even after I see that UPNers are discussing the film here -- does that make me a jerk?

Once again, I don't know. If one gives more favorable responses, or you simply relate better to another group, it shouldn't really matter.

Q2c. To what degree, if any, is the Skype-exclusive conversation meaningfully different from the IRL-exclusive or telephone-exclusive conversation? Example: in what ways, if any, is it different that I neglect to discuss a show on UPN that I am discussing with AK2 by telephone but some other UPNer neglects to discuss a show on UPN yet discusses it on Skype with other UPNers?

Don't talk to anyone IRL about my interests, so I can't answer this. FUCK REAL PEOPLE!

Q2d. If a thread for a particular anime exists in the Anime forum, and if someone then chooses to discuss the show actively on Skype with other UPNers but not on the forum, are they being a jerk towards those UPNers who post in the Anime thread but who are not part of the Skype chat?

Maybe? I've seen these situations alot, and have simply thought it was my fault for not being part of the Skype circle.

Q3. Is it socially ostracizing to discuss a topic with some eligible members of a social circle but not others? (Bold and underscore for the same purpose as before.)

It is, but some people are easier to talk to, or you can relate with them better. Can't really help who people prefer talking to.

Q4a. To what degree, if any at all, do members of UPN "owe something" to UPN?

None, really. I always viewed it as a "post if you want to, don't post if you don't" kind of thing.

Q4b. To what degree is lurking permissible? To what degree is it impermissible?

There shouldn't really be any problems with lurking. If there is someone out there who gives a damn about what I say, then that's fine. Though I guess if there's people out there who do give a damn and I don't know it, then I guess it's a little bit troubling.

Q4c. Is it ethical for someone to take, take, take in a relationship grounded in discussion when the other party makes clear that they are not happy to always give without reward? (Simple example: is it ethical for people to say they want me to keep posting in the Pokémon XY thread when they have not contributed previously nor do they contribute once I resume posting? The only replies to the XY thread since my latest episode review have been nothing but off-topic banter or the most superficial of on-topic remarks.)

For the most part, no, but I can't say I understand your woes myself. Once again, for me, if I knew there was someone out there who atleast gave a damn about what I said, I would be okay. If you want discussion, and are getting it, but not what you're expecting, then I think you might be expecting too much. I know others aren't willing or able to give full thoughts to everything. Hell, half of the time I post, I forget what I was going to post in the first place. The "good review" people sometimes give me in threads I spend hours making is enough to make me feel like it was worth it. Though admittedly I don't do this regularly, so yeah.

Q5. Why aren't more UPNers posting in Anime?

I don't know. I always assumed it was that the older members are experiencing a decline in interest lately, and the newer ones simply talk to their buddies on Skype or something. I try to make a few one-liner posts about what I'm currently watching, but I can't say I ever expect anything in return.

Q5a. Is it because they dislike a specific member or group of members who post there?

I always thought of me, Doppel, and You as sort of outcasts from the cool-kid society UPN has anyway, so I thought that might have been one of the cases. You know, we're the nerds who insult popular shows and don't watch what the cool crowd tells us to.

Q5b. Is it because they fear that their views will be ridiculed or criticized?

This might be a reason. I have seen cases where one of us has been needlessly harsh with a newcomer. I have also only recently figured out in the Chobits thread that I'm harsh as well. According to Doppel, moreso than the others, which surprised the hell out of me. I've tried to tone it down, but habits are difficult to kill.

Q5c. Is it because they don't enjoy the sorts of animes which most of the active Anime forum posters enjoy? Related, is it because they have not seen the animes which most of the active Anime forum posters have seen or are currently watching?

No-one enjoys what I enjoy! SOMEONE LIKE A SHOW ABOUT FIGHTING WITH YOUR PANTS TO YOUR ANKLES! Sorry, serious response. Most fans should be able to find some common ground somewhere, so I don't think this is it.

Q5d. Is it because they feel like they have to make a Talon-style post to be welcomed there? (Let's get this one out of the way: you don't. Take a look around at all of the recent uncriticized non-Talon-style posts made by myself or other members. Although maybe mine will mostly be my style after all ... >>; )

Maybe. I stopped posting about Fate/Zero for that same reason. I have difficulty expressing myself, and I was expected to make a fairly substantial post about something I just had difficulty doing.

Q5e. Is it because they only come to UPN for the PASBL and/or FB chapter and so the rest of the forum is on Ignore for them?

Could be. I ignore anything that isn't anime or video games. Entertainment constantly talks about things I don't give two fucks about.

Q5f. Is it because they were invited to the Skype chat first and they don't really see the reason in discussing the same topic twice just because not every UPNer is invited to the Skype chat?

Maybe. Instant messaging is much easier to talk through. Even if it isn't a deep discussion, it's instant gratification.

For stuff outside of the questions. I don't get much time a day outside of work, so I don't like spending hours reading and making posts. Actually, I started reading this thread when I got back from work, and at this point in the post, it's now time for me to go to sleep. I haven't even made my rounds around the internet yet.

There's also the fact that I simply like things no-one else cares about. Why should I go on and on about all that? I just make simple bare-bones posts about them, and leave it at that. There's Precure stuffs too, but I've gotten tired of it. I used to update the thread with every new show, but I'm the only one who gives a damn, so why bother?
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Old 02-08-2015, 01:54 PM   #25
Marion Ette
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Q1. To what degree are posting responsibilities shared responsibilities? Reworded, what right does anyone have to ask me to prop a thread up on life support if they're not willing to commit equal or greater effort themselves?

People can ask you whatever they want to, regardless of how much they contribute, just as you can respond to said requests however you see fit. Perhaps they enjoy reading your posts, but feel that they have nothing further to add. Isn't it enough to be appreciated for your contributions? I mean, you could argue that these people who are asking for your input should at least acknowledge your efforts, but they may feel awkward just posting a one-liner such as "interesting post", since they may feel that it isn't adequate contribution in the forum. It's those little one-liner "great jobs" and "nice posts" that are better suited to Skype (and I have seen people congratulated on well-written posts on UPN in that way on Skype), and may be one of the many reasons people prefer it.

Q2a. To what degree are the UPNers who discuss anime on Skype exclusively being jerks towards their fellow UPNers?

I could only see this argument being made if the invitation wasn't made to everybody. The Skype group on UPN isn't secret, and maybe it needs to be advertised more, but I know personally that if anyone asked me for an invite, I would give it to them as long as they were a UPN member (and if I were still a member of the UPN chat – I'm on hiatus right now). If anyone on UPN wants to join, then by all means, they would be welcomed. Pretty much every instance I've heard of someone not participating in the UPN Skype chat is either due to problems/dislike of Skype as a client, or a simple lack of desire. One could argue that the setup excludes those who don't like Skype, but one could argue that forum-based conversation excludes people who don't like forums... I'm not sure if a transition to Google Hangouts or AIM would make the group more inclusive, less, or about the same. That could be a discussion further down the line if those without Skype wish to join and feel excluded.

Q2b. To what degree are any of us jerks for discussing some things with some of our social circles but not with other, equally-eligible social circles. (Bolded and underscored for emphasis. Please: no replies about how there are some things you just can't/wouldn't choose to discuss with certain peers or family members. We're strictly talking about situations where you could just as well discuss a topic with Group A as with Group B but you exclude Group B and focus your energies strictly on Group A.) For example, if I choose to discuss the latest Lord of the Rings movie with hometown friends on Facebook but not with UPN -- even after I see that UPNers are discussing the film here -- does that make me a jerk?

People should be able to discuss anime with whoever they like, and if they don't want to participate in a UPN-wide discussion, that's entirely their choice. Personally, I tend to limit my anime discussions with the people I watch said anime with.

Q2c. To what degree, if any, is the Skype-exclusive conversation meaningfully different from the IRL-exclusive or telephone-exclusive conversation? Example: in what ways, if any, is it different that I neglect to discuss a show on UPN that I am discussing with AK2 by telephone but some other UPNer neglects to discuss a show on UPN yet discusses it on Skype with other UPNers?

There are quite a few reasons, I'd say. If I want to discuss anime with UPN as a group as opposed to just a telephone call with one particular friend, It's a lot easier to determine whether there will be interest in the discussion of said anime by bringing the anime up on the Skype chat, as responses are immediate, and the resulting discussion will be a lot more fast-paced than the forum. Also, the ability to switch topics easily (as opposed to forum posts, which require staying on-topic), even in Skype chats devoted to a particular anime, allows for people to have flexibility and to let their thoughts flow, even if it means going to an unrelated tangent. For example, let's say the discussion on Skype is Dangan Ronpa. On the UPN forum, if Celeste's hairdo reminds me of an awesome site devoted to Lolita Fashion, I may not post about it in the thread because it's a tangent. In the Skype forum, however, I can shift topics without fear, and without having to create an entirely different thread on Lolita fashion and hope that people will switch entire subforums to have this discussion with me. Tl;dr is rapid discussion and ease of use. Also, on Skype, the possibility does exist to have a Skype call with everyone interested in said anime, which can be a lot of fun!

Q2d. If a thread for a particular anime exists in the Anime forum, and if someone then chooses to discuss the show actively on Skype with other UPNers but not on the forum, are they being a jerk towards those UPNers who post in the Anime thread but who are not part of the Skype chat?

As long as the people in that anime thread are aware that the Skype chat exists, they are welcome to join the Skype discussion, so in that case, I don't see a problem. Again, if the issue is due to Skype itself as a client, discussion can open up at the possibility of using a different client to prevent exclusion. Putting that issue aside, though, it's not being a jerk; it's exercising your right to discuss anime with those whom you feel most comfortable/happy discussing anime with.

Q3. Is it socially ostracizing to discuss a topic with some eligible members of a social circle but not others? (Bold and underscore for the same purpose as before.)

Since you're asking about social ostracism as opposed to "being a jerk", I'm going to take a little bit of a different perspective on this question. Yes, it can be socially ostracizing to discuss topics with some members of a group and not others, particularly if said excluded group finds out about their exclusion. HOWEVER, that exclusion is not necessarily the inclusive group "being jerks". They may feel more comfortable/friendly with one another. They may have made the determination that the group excluded wouldn't be interested, or may have differing opinions that would clash if they all discussed the same topic together, which could make things uncomfortable for everyone. They may simply have the convenience of being able to speak in real life or in Skype which makes them naturally discuss things together at the exclusion of others who are more difficult to contact. Or, in the cold, harsh reality of the world... they may not like the attitudes of the group that they exclude. That's life. Regardless of motivations, however, when people find out they've been excluded, it can feel very hurtful and isolating, particularly if it's a group of people that person considered to be his or her friends. In these instances, open and honest communication is generally necessary... but it's a tough situation. Exclusion of others should never be taken lightly for this reason, but sometimes it's a social necessity. That's why I think it's important that the UPN Skype group is no secret.

Q4a. To what degree, if any at all, do members of UPN "owe something" to UPN?

Until UPN starts doling out salaries to its members, they owe nothing to UPN. This is a free service that we all use for entertainment and fun. If we owe anything to anybody, I'd say it would be gratitude for Kuno and the mods who help keep this place running, and I am very grateful for them. That said, beyond that gratitude, I don't think there's any debt that I, or anyone else, owes to UPN.

Q4b. To what degree is lurking permissible? To what degree is it impermissible?

Lurking is 100% permissible behavior on forums. No one should ever, in any way, feel forced to participate in a conversation. Reading and appreciating the discussion is enough for some, and that's totally fine.

Q4c. Is it ethical for someone to take, take, take in a relationship grounded in discussion when the other party makes clear that they are not happy to always give without reward? (Simple example: is it ethical for people to say they want me to keep posting in the Pokémon XY thread when they have not contributed previously nor do they contribute once I resume posting? The only replies to the XY thread since my latest episode review have been nothing but off-topic banter or the most superficial of on-topic remarks.)

Oh, as I said, people can ask whatever they like. If people don't contribute to the XY thread, they are well within their right to ask you to contribute if they like what you write; however, it goes into an unethical territory if a previous agreement was made that your posts were contingent upon their responses in particular, and they did not deliver said responses but continue to ask you for posts. If you do not want to contribute to the forums without feedback and further discussion guaranteed, that is entirely your right and your choice. You may make your posts contingent upon response, but if people don't want to respond... that's their choice. It only becomes unethical if they promised responses but did not deliver on a promise.

Q5. Why aren't more UPNers posting in Anime?

There are a lot of reasons, unique to each person. For some, it's self-consciousness about interests. Some prefer the ease/faster rate of discussion that Skype provides. Some prefer the more relaxed attitude of the Skype chat, and the ability to go on tangents. There are tons of reasons.

As for me, the anime discussed on the forums tends to be the most recent, and I am not the type of person who keeps up with current stuff generally. I tend to be far behind the times, watching anime long after it was popular with more up-to-date crowds. This isn't a HUGE issue, per se; I could probably make a topic about Elfen Lied or Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and I doubt it would be blocked for not being recent. But... this isn't the big issue for me.

I'm just going to come out and say it: the anime forum's attitude towards casual anime watchers and “popular” shows, from what I've seen in my few ventures into that section of the thread, is condescending. Granted, the people on the forum do acknowledge that people have different interests and tastes... to a point. However, there's this unspoken bias against shows that the forum dislikes because they appeal to an “inexperienced” crowd, according to them. I mean, I'm sure the anime forum regulars have watched way more anime than I have, so maybe there's something I'm missing, here. Even so, that attitude drove me away. It's okay to have differing opinions, and it's all right to dislike what others enjoy... but sometimes, I feel like the Anime Forum (and this isn't one person, or even the imagined group of “outcasts”, but a forum-wide issue) is a bit too vocal with their dislike at times, to the point where those who enjoy said anime feel like they aren't welcome. I almost feel like suggesting that if you don't like it, you're better off going to a different thread and discussing what you do like. That's my personal take, though.

Q5a. Is it because they dislike a specific member or group of members who post there?

Don't ask this question if you don't want the answer. I'm going to assume that you do, so... Yes, I've heard that there are some folks who would state this as their primary reason. Somehow, though, I doubt that discussing it much further than that would lead to anything productive. I do think, however, that the less severe reason of disliking a particular attitude within the forum DOES deserve discussion, which is why I posted my reasons above. You can dislike an attitude that a group has about a particular subject without disliking the people. I fall into that camp... but not all who feel dislike towards the Anime Forum can say the same. It is what it is.

Q5b. Is it because they fear that their views will be ridiculed or criticized?

Absolutely. I fall into this category to a degree.

Q5c. Is it because they don't enjoy the sorts of animes which most of the active Anime forum posters enjoy? Related, is it because they have not seen the animes which most of the active Anime forum posters have seen or are currently watching?

This is me, as well.

Q5d. Is it because they feel like they have to make a Talon-style post to be welcomed there? (Let's get this one out of the way: you don't. Take a look around at all of the recent uncriticized non-Talon-style posts made by myself or other members. Although maybe mine will mostly be my style after all ... >>; )

Er... I don't think this is really it as much. As I said, they may not feel comfortable with one-liners more suited to a Skype discussion (such as, “Great post, Talon!”) but I don't think people feel pressured to analyze to the degree that you do. I think they know that they can make smaller posts if they choose... but even then, that doesn't replace the speed/ease of use of Skype. Then again, that misconception that they need to write a Talon-esque post may be at play and I may be unaware of it.

Q5e. Is it because they only come to UPN for the PASBL and/or FB chapter and so the rest of the forum is on Ignore for them?

Oh, those people absolutely exist, and they probably won't be posting here because they don't venture outside of FB/PASBL, but yes. This is a factor, but again, these people have the right to socialize exclusively with their FB/PASBL friends, and discuss anime with them in the TO/Skype chat if they so choose. These are the people they care about, whom they share a common interest with, and that's all there is to it. They are more comfortable discussing anime with these friends.

Q5f. Is it because they were invited to the Skype chat first and they don't really see the reason in discussing the same topic twice just because not every UPNer is invited to the Skype chat?

I think this is probably the biggest reason in the community if I had to guess. Not so much because they were invited there first, but because they have a tendency to go to Skype first to discuss things with their friends, and then don't feel like discussing it a second time. I actually remember suggesting once, while Bravely Default discussion in the Skype chat was dominating, that maybe they should start a forum topic to discuss it, since it was being talked about all the time... and they did, but it was rarely ever used, and the Skype talk continued. It was just easier to go to Skype first to talk about the game, and about specific little instances that happened within it that people really didn't feel deserved a whole post. There's no spoiler tags, though, which can be a huge downside. That's where I feel that the forums do have an advantage. Skype needs to get on that.
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