UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Anime

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-08-2011, 11:53 PM   #151
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Mikoko is
Whoops, I totally goofed, my bad. I've put it in spoiler tag now. You can edit your post later if you'd like to try and avoid collaterally damaging Mcsweeney's or bbb's viewing experiences for this episode. I know I certainly appreciated the connection and I'm sorry to have spoiled it for you.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 12:20 AM   #152
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
It seemed more like trivia at first, but as I go through the episode...

Spoiler: show
It seems more and more obvious to me that Sakazaki is going to backstab Kaiji. And Kaiji's falling for it, pretty easily. Logically speakiing, if the man's entire fortune is 20M, is he really going to risk everything on a gamble where he could be beaten to the point of being handicapped for life, when he knows how much cash Kaiji's got on him? The guy's showed some flaire thus far, but Kaiji's going along with what he has to say a little too easily, and I'm half suspecting he's in league with Teiai simply because of how outrageous it is for him to own a copy of the Pachinko Bog in his sleazy apartment.

Talon's spoiler suggests to me that Mikoko might be either financial support for Kaiji, or a key to learning more about her father and his work.


...

OK, nevermind.

Spoiler: show
It seems far more likely now that Sakazaki has been duped, since he never really revealed the "inside man". For all I know, it's Kazuya. No, it's probably Kazuya, and it looks like Kaiji will try to rescue Sakazaki from debt as well with his win off of the Pachinko Bog.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて

Last edited by Doppleganger; 06-09-2011 at 12:37 AM.
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 01:16 PM   #153
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
Spoiler: show
Sakazaki certainly seems like an unstable individual, and he has not won my trust. This is the first time that Kaiji is actually going along with someone else's plan, rather than him doing the recruiting and the thinking. I think either Sakazaki will backstab Kaiji, or his plan will end up failing, and Kaiji will have to think up something better himself.
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 01:17 PM   #154
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Disagreed with your first spoiler box, then expanded your second and saw that we're now in complete agreement. Guess you hadn't finished the episode when you wrote that first bit.

Okay, just finished Episode 10. It was pretty good. It'll be remembered as the Sakazaki Character Development episode since it pretty much fleshes out his character in a whole lot of ways. Looks like we're in for a rough, slow ride the next few episodes though since it's going to (a) be Predictable-ville and (b) be way too early in the arc for anything major-good to happen to Kaiji.

Thoughts:
Spoiler: show
I think we can all agree that the outcome in Episode 11 is visible from a mile away. Like Doppel has said, it seems obvious that Sakazaki's going to go broke next episode and then it'll be up to Kaiji to rescue both of them from the abyss. Which will be pretty fucking epic, when you think about it, since a guy blows $500,000 and fails to win but then his peon comes over with a pitiful $8,000 and cleans house.

So let's reassess from last time what the cash breakdown is likely to be:

Bog Jackpot (minimum): 550,000,000 yen = $5,500,000
This is the 500,000,000 yen from last time plus Sakazaki's blown warfunds of 50,000,000 yen added on top. We'll work with the minimum value for the rest of this post. The maximum value would be Sakazaki's estimate of a 600,000,000 yen jackpot at the time of their challenge plus his blown warfunds for a composite total of 650,000,000 yen.

Kaiji's original cut of 10%: 55,000,000 yen = $550,000

Is Kaiji's original cut enough to save the 45's?: absolutely if all he needed was 6 million. But this seems to be incorrect since (remember) Kaiji insisted a 5% cut wasn't going to be enough. So we now know that the 45's combined debt exceeds 25,000,000 yen (or $250,000) but is less than 50,000,000 yen (or $500,000). Anyway, it should still be enough for him to buy his and the other 45's freedom.

Kaiji's new cut of ??%: we'll have to see what he negotiates with Sakazaki. I think he'd be a fool to not negotiate for a higher cut at this point. A, he's going to rescue Sakazaki's butt. B, he's using some of his own warfunds too. Sure, Sakazaki's still the one who knew to come on this day because of the pin schedule, but that's pretty much his only contribution. (His warfund contribution doesn't count for shit anymore since he's blown it all by the point Kaiji wins, i.e. it didn't help Kaiji at all. Not unless as Sakazaki plays Kaiji figures something out.) So I think Kaiji ought to negotiate for at least 20% (bare minimum!) and I think he'd be smart to start the negotiations as high as 50%. Sakazaki isn't in a position to argue. Technically speaking, since Kaiji would be the winner and not Sakazaki, Kaiji could be a complete douchebag and say "I'm taking it all." (Of course Sakazaki would then rat him out, but you get my drift: Kaiji's the one, as the winner, who gets to call the shots now, not Sakazaki.) Start the negotiations at 50%, man, and don't settle for anything less than 20%!

To partly address what Doppel wrote in his first spoiler box ...
Sakazaki has 50 million yen, Doppel. 20 million in savings plus 30 million from raiding his former boss's vault. Kaiji only has a measely 800,000 yen. To put it a different way, Kaiji's warchest of 800,000 yen is only 1.6% that of Sakazaki's. It's absolute peanuts. There's not much reason for Sakazaki to insist that Kaiji contribute to the warfund when Kaiji has such little money. While I completely agree that it'd make sense for him to still insist on it as a matter of principle, it looks like we're meant to believe that either (a) Sakazaki, as a stupid man, was too stupid to filch Kaiji's pockets, or else that (b) Sakazaki, as a delusional man, was too cocky to think he needed the help of Kaiji's $8,000.

LOL at the Mikoko bit. I loved it when Kaiji said (Nutbladder translation) "She's a fucking dog. Why does she have to look so much like her dad?" But what really sold this scene was the plethora of Fukumoto faces. We didn't get to see much variety in the chinchiron arc since people didn't really have a wide variety of emotions in the underground. But then in this one scene alone, lol, Fukumoto faces galore.

And then it happened again the night Sakazaki came home half-insane! L-O-L at the classic Fukumoto crooked teeth manly tears face Sakazaki has at 13:41!

I'm looking forward to this arc. Looks like it's going to be intense. Who'd have thought, right? That pachinko would ever described as "intense"? XD But we already knew by the end of Season 1 that Fukumoto could make anything intense. Two words: TISSUE BOXES.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 03:02 PM   #155
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
It's also aesthetically pleasing to see Kaiji get out of that dank, brown den for a while, and into a place with bright colours and flashing lights everywhere (putting aside the fact that someone not so aesthetically pleasing might be showing up soon).
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 03:11 PM   #156
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
What I want to know is

Spoiler: show
What was the point in Sakazaki getting a model of the Pachinko Bog? Clearly, if we're assuming Kazuya is behind setting up Sakazaki like this, Kazuya gave Sakazaki two tools to beat the Bog - one was the schedule, the other was the model. From what we've seen, Sakazaki is only applying one half of these tools - the schedule. He might have discerned what the schedule is from the model, but the model seems like a Chekhov's Gun for Kaiji to work on after Sakazaki will (inevitably) get detained for taking his boss' money. Which is pretty suspect as well.

Moreover, how many days has Kaiji wasted waiting for this opportunity? Two weeks?
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2011, 04:14 PM   #157
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
What I want to know is

Spoiler: show
What was the point in Sakazaki getting a model of the Pachinko Bog? Clearly, if we're assuming Kazuya is behind setting up Sakazaki like this, Kazuya gave Sakazaki two tools to beat the Bog - one was the schedule, the other was the model. From what we've seen, Sakazaki is only applying one half of these tools - the schedule. He might have discerned what the schedule is from the model, but the model seems like a Chekhov's Gun for Kaiji to work on after Sakazaki will (inevitably) get detained for taking his boss' money. Which is pretty suspect as well.

Moreover, how many days has Kaiji wasted waiting for this opportunity? Two weeks?
Spoiler: show
I have no idea. And that's a very good point. I honestly have no idea what the point was in having the replica. There are so many problems with that idea ...
(1) How do you know the replica's near 100% authentic? Even a 5% difference could be deadly, but what if you're missing some crucial secret to the machine? Then you're fooling yourself to think that you're "practicing" on this machine!

(2) It didn't look life-size. The real Bog looked larger. So I imagine that that could have all sorts of ramifications weight-of-the-machine-wise, weight-of-the-balls-wise, etc.

(3) Did you build this from scratch? If so, who fucking helped you? If it's Kazuya or someone else, then we KNOW better than to trust the results!

But Doppel, you raise some really good points. I hadn't even considered the possibility of Kaiji returning to Sakazaki's place after this. I had just assumed that Sakazaki was going to go broke and that then Kaiji was going to step up to the plate that very same evening and challenge the machine. I hadn't even considered the possibility that they might kick him and Sakazaki out and that Sakazaki might then get picked up by the cops and it'd be up to Kaiji to try and return to this place later and win back his money.

If you're right about this, lots of comments!

(1) How much time will Kaiji have left before Teiai comes after him!?

(2) How on Earth will he gain access to the casino if his Teiai "20 days of freedom" period has expired by then? It's Teiai owned and operated!

(3) If he goes back before his 20 days are over, he might wind up playing on one of the bad pin days! Maybe not if Sakazaki was lied to. But if Sakazaki's sheet is accurate, then yes.

(4) How will Kaiji even manage to challenge the machine? He doesn't have the necessary funds! This is something I forgot to bring up last time: Sakazaki was offered three different cards for The Bog. One was 10 million (which he purchased), the other was 5 million, but the cheapest was 3 million. That's still 2.2 million yen more than Kaiji has on him right now! He only has 800,000 yen! How's he going to get the money necessary for the minimum buy-in!?

So yeah. A lot of questions arise. It'd make more sense to me if Kaiji had access to some of Sakazaki's money before he blows it all, but I don't see that happening. So whether Kaiji gambles tonight or whether he waits a few days before gambling, one way or the other he has to make up the necessary deficit -- 2.2 million yen -- before he can even purchase the cheapest card.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 03:40 PM   #158
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
Breaking news from The Triad! Kanna indicates in the latest news post that they are "waiting on Labaa". This means that Labaamen was subbing season 2 the whole time.

OR!

Or ... the more exciting possibility. It was actually being done by Dragosmore, and, tiring of his laziness, they're now bringing Labaamen out of retirement for a Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven-esque final job!
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2011, 04:23 PM   #159
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
I think it's the latter. "Drago couldn't get his lazy ass to bother translating [my Dogtato comic]" may not prove he was working on Kaiji S2, but it certainly points to it when you consider:
(1) I felt a difference in how things were being subbed and
(2) it felt like a drop in quality

If Drago was always their #2 to Labaamen's #1, it makes sense if this is what happened:
1. Labaamen couldn't or refused to come in.
2. Dragosmore offered, seeing his chance to shine.
3. LordBrian reluctantly agreed to this.
4. But Dragosmore fucking dropped the ball. Slacker. (Edit Note: and we know he's a slacker because, jokingly or not, LordBrian even said so about the Dogtato comic!)
5. So LordBrian and Kanna didn't know what to say or do.
6. Only after I more or less forced them (with my posts and the popular replies people wrote to me in response) to give us an announcement did they ...
7. ... go hunt for Labaamen and beg him to come back, saying, "Either it's you or we have to cancel the whole project."

But if it is the former, then I'll certainly be disappointed. Why?
1. Because it would mean Labaamen was the one being the lazy ass and so we're sort of screwed for the rest of the year when it comes to Triad releasing things in a timely matter.
2. Because it would mean Labaamen's translation skills have declined in the two or so years since he's last worked on anything.

So I'm really, really hoping that it's the second of the two scenarios you provided.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 08:24 AM   #160
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
I likened Labaamen to Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven because he is just that much of a badass. He is THE person most responsible for introducing the Western world to Fukumoto works, and die hard fans like me owe him a debt of gratitude. If it wasn't for his bold insistence on tackling a bizarre looking anime about an incomprehensible Chinese tile game, my life would have never been enriched by such awesome stories. I still laugh when I read Triad's old news posts about Akagi:

http://www.the-triad.org/News-topicmore-22-31.html

They mocked the art style, and expressed disbelief that they let Labaamen drag them into this shit. That all gave way to shock when the show actually became a big hit, and would forever be considered their trademark project.

Without Labaamen, would Kaiji eventually have become a cult hit anyway? Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, before Kaiji even debuted, people were waiting for it. They WANTED it because they knew how awesome Akagi was, and they built up a lot of pre game hype, which got more people who never saw Akagi wanting to see what all the fuss was about. Without the Akagi fanbase supporting it, most people would have just wrote it off as some weird looking niche show that doesn't translate well. Perhaps some obscure subbing group would have taken a flier on it, and a few people would have checked it out, but not enough to build up a sufficient amount of steam, and trigger exponential word of mouth. Thus, no demand for Ten, no demand for Legend of the Strongest Man Kurosawa, no demand for Gambling Emperor Zero.

Akagi even inspired lots of people (like us) to learn how to play mahjong, which paved the way for other mahjong shows to be translated, like Saki (despite being terrible).
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 06:54 PM   #161
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Episode 11 was a bit of a snoozer. Not too bad, but we're definitely going to be getting lull episodes like this one for the foreseeable future. If Kaiji S2 ends up being a 24-episode series, and if the pachinko arc is its final arc of only two arcs total, then it's going to be quite some time before things heat up between Kaiji and Ichijou (dude with the red hair).

Kind of disappointing to see just how dumb Sakazaki is. He's like, AnoHana Jinta-level dumb.
Spoiler: show
  1. If the beer can doesn't seem to be working, maybe it's because the casino doesn't use magnetic balls? Maybe you should check before wasting any more money? This could arguably be difficult to do without getting caught were the balls magnetic, but at this point I think it's worth it, old man. You had six balls go to Tray 3, you said. Of these, I think you didn't use the beer can on the first one shown, so we'll say you used it on all the others. That's five strikes against the beer can working. Not one. Not two. Five. Dude. Back the fuck up and double-check shit.
  2. Do NOT discuss your plans inside the casino. Cameras and microphones everywhere. Sure, they already figured you two out, but did you really have to make their jobs easier by flat-out discussing things?
  3. Do NOT discuss your plans in the bathroom! Jesus Christ: #1 place you'd expect a casino to plant microphones and cameras. Privacy laws? Forget about 'em. In a high-security casino, you'd better believe they have the bathrooms rigged. Gotta be the most obvious place to try and go to pull shit. What were you THINKING? >_<
  4. With your war funds, why did you two not go and purchase a cell phone for Kaiji and then signal each other that way? Kaiji could have signaled you to go outside by calling you. And then you could have lied to Teiai, "Oh shit, I have to take this call," taken it, hung up, and then lied to Teiai further and said, "Looks important. I'll be back in a bit" and headed outside to talk with Kaiji. Obviously Sakazaki was never in the right state of mind to go through with this plan, given what we saw in this episode, but I'm blown away that he didn't at least prepare for it. Kaiji's only way of communicating with you is by overt hand gestures and mouthing words? Give me a break, man.
A smarter man might have felt devastated by the fact that he'd already blown 20 million yen, his entire life's savings, but would have still had the common sense to realize the jig was up and to have left. Maybe left town with the 30 million he had left and told Kaiji "see ya later." Instead, he's going to blow it all and still stick behind, presumably, just so the cops can arrest him. What a maroon.

Still, there were some really great things about this episode.
Spoiler: show
For one thing, it showed that Kaiji has grown past his luck phase completely. He got burned by relying on Lady Luck bad when he lost his four fingers to Hyoudou at the end of Season 1. We'd thought he'd learned his lesson but he was still relying on luck to see him through the early rounds of chinchiron. Only after Ootsuki screwed him over did he realize "Fuck this: from here on, I make my own luck." He did a good job of it with the final bit of chinchiron, and it's good to see that he isn't behaving like the religious Sakazaki who, play-acting or not, was making appeals to Bishamon throughout the episode for some good luck. I was worried there for a second, but when they revealed the beer can plan and how it worked, I was relieved. It shows that Kaiji knows to not bank on statistics alone, that he realizes that there's no way in Hell the house is going to allow 1-in-5400 balls to hit a multi-million dollar jackpot.

Can't remember the second thing I was going to say. ^^;

Last edited by Talon87; 06-16-2011 at 06:56 PM.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2011, 07:52 PM   #162
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Bishamonten! Give me your divine protection!

Spoiler: show
I didn't quite understand what in the suits conversation got Kaiji so upset. "activate the block"? Ok, even assuming the worst, what does that even mean? Perhaps Kaiji was just acting on gut instinct to get out of there simply because those guys suspected something was up.

Sakazaki's plan was smart, but as Talon says, he made a lot of egregious security compromising moves. I'd chalk this up to him not knowing the ruthlessness of Teiai, something Kaiji is well aware of. A regular casino, even a high profile one, isn't going to bug bathrooms. Governments wouldn't sit for that (at least in the US), but this is an illegal casino. It might appear follow its own rules but it also tries to scam gamblers at all times.

I'm glad to see the purpose of the replica was explained.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 03:31 PM   #163
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Kaiji S2 Episode 12 was a good intermediate episode that leaves you hungry for Episode 13.

Spoiler: show
We finally get to meet Ichijou this episode. He's the first Tonegawa-like character we've gotten to see since, well, Tonegawa. Smug, confident, proud, and above all else convinced that he is a superior human being to the kind of sub-human he sees Kaiji as being. Given this, it seems inevitable that pachinko is going to wind up feeling a lot like E-Card did by pitting Kaiji against Ichijou. Looks like it'll be good.

The episode ends with a teaser: the narrator informs us that Kaiji has figured out how to get the balls past the forest of pins. Interesting ... but how? Without explicitly saying anything, the episode lends viewers tons of visual clues, any of which might be crucial evidence in proving correct one's theories about how Kaiji intends to beat The Bog. Here's what I observed:
  1. Kaiji seemed interested in the air vents, and then he went upstairs to the floor above the casino. This seems to suggest that Kaiji plans to go into the air vents. But to what end? To what purpose?
    • Does he plan to filch Ichijou's maintenance tools? If so, I don't see how he's going to be able to fiddle with The Bog without the casino catching him with their 24-hour surveillance.
    • Does he plan to swap some of the balls we saw with balls of his own? If so, I don't see how this is going to work either: how would Kaiji be able to tell four or five implanted balls of his apart from the thousands of house balls they'd be intermingled with?
    • Does he just plan on snooping around? Cool ... but what's he going to find? Don't keep me in suspense!
  2. Given that all we saw Ichijou do during maintenance was modify the forest of pins, and given that that was also what the final image of the episode was (post-retarded "proverbs" reading ), it seems that Kaiji was pretty interested in the maintenance tools. Will he use these to modify his miniature Bog replica at home and try to figure shit out through trial and error?
If it isn't the air vents or the tools which have Kaiji interested, then what is it? I want to know, but it appears I won't get to know any sooner than Episode 13; and if this is anything like Kaiji's "DICE ARE CUBIC! :O" epiphany in the chinchiron arc, then it could be much, much later than the next episode before I find out what Kaiji was so pleased with himself about.

Sakazaki is LOL superstitious. His fearful eyes as he waves the Buddha statue in the opening are starting to make more and more sense. (I'd thought he was a priest at first! Then when we met him, I figured he was later going to become one! Now it seems he's just a godfearing, superstitious man who wields a statue of the Buddha much the same way an American might wave a rabbit's foot around.)

Felt bad for the guy when he wet himself. But man, Fukumoto does have a flare for the realistically dramatic, doesn't he?
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 04:07 PM   #164
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
KAZUYAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

And this episode. I don't know what Kaiji's thinking. Even if we consider the simple trick of Ohtsuki, this isn't intuitive at all. I'm completely at a loss.

I'll need to think over this...
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて

Last edited by Doppleganger; 06-22-2011 at 04:10 PM.
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 05:16 PM   #165
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
As usual, I do my best thinking after a walk. Especially a walk in 35°C weather.

Spoiler: show
I think Ichijou's manipulating the balls using air vents in the machine, which is why Kaiji was interested in the vents. He's not sure of course, but if he's right, he can screw with the Bog from that room by either adjusting either the flow or air or -

(tagged because it touches on what little I know of how Kaiji beats the Bog)

Spoiler: show
Heating. If Kaiji puts a heater up there, or adjusts the temperature, maybe he's planning on taking advantage of the ball's thermal expansion to shrink in size and get by the pins. Even if Teiai uses the block, if the ball is traveling quickly enough it'll blaze by the sensor and beat the closing block.


This episode revealed some stuff to me, namely that Sakazaki may have been right in his chances of beating the Bog on that day. Ichijou seemed annoyed that the suits hadn't been using the block from the start, and given how he said Setting C had a zero percent chance of success, I take that as suggestion that Setting A was beatable with enough fair balls.

Also, regarding those balls getting by the block, I think that also supports the air/ventilation idea to manipulate the ball's trajectory. The suits seemed surprised of that, and I chalk it up to them never having used the block during a Setting A scenario. That is, Sakazaki is the first guy to try and blow 50M on that particular day, mandating they use the block. After all, Setting A only appears once a month, and without someone knowing about it beforehand, that's a maximum of 12 times a year someone is going to play big on that day. Using the block could have diverted the normal air currents and got the ball to enter the three plates, which would have been unexpected.

We should also look at the maintenance schedule - what's the point of making the Bog vulnerable on certain days anyway? It's not to make it easier to win, clearly...it's information only privy to the mechanics. So maybe the average stress on Setting C of the Bog is what leads it to have Setting A and B days.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2011, 05:39 PM   #166
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Didn't expand your spoiler-within-the-spoiler. As for everything else you said ...

I don't think it has anything to do with air because, quite frankly, the machine has a broad, solid top and any vents would have to be directly above the machine. The only opening the machine has is its glass face which, as we discovered this episode, is actually a door which swings forward. So you could argue that air could theoretically flow in that way and do stuff. But that ... I dunno, Doppel. It just seems so silly to me to consider that they'd be manipulating the balls with air currents. Shouldn't pachinko balls be too heavy for that? Fukumoto's never steered us wrong before when it comes to his display of realistic technology, realistic physics, realistic biology, etc, so I'm not about to give up on him now and expect that physically absurd scenarios (like air sucking dense metal balls upwards against gravity) are in the running for possible answers to how The Bog works. But I could be wrong.

As for the point of the maintenance schedule, I thought that'd be obvious already: setting C is the default (which is No Win anyway), and settings B and A exist only because they tantalize the guests into not giving up on the game. Think about it: if you saw a difficult game of chance and you'd never seen ANYONE win at it or even come close to winning at it, would YOU risk playing? Of course not. But what does the house do? It addresses both of these concerns. It:
(1) makes it so that the guests do see people winning -- albeit staged
(2) makes it so that the guests see others of their fellow guests inexplicably come close to winning without actually winning

1 + 2 --> the guests entertain the possibility that the game can be won and they squander their money on it. Without 1 and 2 together, people wouldn't trust the machine. (2 alone means you'd conclude that no one's ever won. 1 alone means you'd conclude that the winners were plants for sure. But 1 + 2 is likely to fool most of these simple-minded and desperate men.)

But maybe I'm wrong again. Don't mean to tear down your theory. You could be onto something. I don't think you are , but I accept that you could be and will patiently wait until future episodes before concluding one way or another whether you were right or wrong.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2011, 05:34 PM   #167
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Still no Kaiji S2 Episode 13, but I did write this up earlier today. Held off on cross-posting it here originally because I didn't want to bump this thread and get your guys' hopes up that Episode 13 was already out -- the very act I'm doing now! -- but I decided to go ahead and cross-post it now because (1) it's 6:34pm EDT and (2) I figured I'd at least give you guys something to sink your teeth into Kaiji-style. Even if it's just me doing my usual: counter-bitching at people bitching in one direction or another on Triad's blog. (Expand spoiler tag to read. Not a spoiler.)

Spoiler: show
No. 13153 (some dude to whom I reply in a second)
Whether Laziness or just hectic shit in your life I don't blame you for being behind the other fansubs. I come here for a number of reason, #1. Faithfulness, #2. The other subs are fucking terrible, #3. You subbed Kaiji Season 1, so I'd like to be consistent with my subbers, #4. Masochism.

All kidding aside, I appreciate what you guys do, keep up the good work and don't troll us too hard, because some of us crazy loyalists are fully expecting Episode 5 up on this site before the year's end.


No. 13154 (me! )
The problem is, argument #2 ("the other subs are fucking terrible") is a gross exaggeration. Let's drop the /b/tard habit of bandying about superlative English terms like "epic" and "terrible" for one second and actually try to speak with our feet on the ground. Nutbladder's subs leave a bit to be desired, yes, but they're not awful. Infrequent translation errors are met with some more frequent subtitling errors (typos, bad grammar) but even these only appear three or four times an episode. Unprofessional? Yes, but they're not pros. Frustrating? Sure, it can be if your patience is like a lit fuse. But "fucking terrible"? No.

Then let's look at the rare subs contributed by Underwater-Commie. These have been -quite- good. They remind me more of Triad Season 1 quality translations than Triad Season 2 quality translations. That is to say, I dare say they're -better- than what I've seen Triad push out so far. If you haven't checked them out yet, you really ought to before you just write them off as "fucking terrible." Had Underwater-Commie offered to sub the entirety of Season 2, I probably would have switched over to them not only for speed but even for archival purposes. They did a great job with the two episodes they tackled and it's really a shame they haven't done more.

I check in here still because (a) Underwater-Commie HASN'T decided to pick up Kaiji S2 and (b) Triad is still better for archival purposes than Nutbladder.

Maybe Triad should (SERIOUSLY) consider a joint effort with Underwater-Commie? Maybe they're missing the critical team member that you guys can provide and vice versa? All I know is, they haven't picked it up despite showing some interest in it while you guys who have picked it up aren't able to move forward because of what seems to be some missing personnel. Perhaps the two of you together could pull off the Kaiji S2 release the community so desperately seeks.

Anyway, some small news you've no doubt been expecting for the last few weeks but now it's official: the program's not over yet for the season as we've got Episode 14 already confirmed to air on July 6.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 11:01 AM   #168
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
I actually read that comment yesterday, I was wondering if it was you. The hatred against /b/tards gave it away, haha.
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 01:12 PM   #169
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Yeah. They're not all me, though! The long comments on Triad's blog, I mean. I think the popularity of some of my earlier ones in the season (remember?) encouraged some other long-winded bastards to not feel ashamed of posting some replies that would ordinarily be ridiculed by anyone on a blog like Triad's as being "tl;dr". But I think I've linked most of the ones I've made here (mostly because I wanted to solicit your guys' feedback too) and I think you can tell me apart from some of the other long-winded guys since they have some /b/tard behavior ("faggot" this or "cool story bro" that) or else because you guys are better at telling who people are by their posts than I am and you can "see" my fingerprints all over these writings.

(I keep talking. Expand to keep reading.)
Spoiler: show
But it's true: the 4chan community going back to its earliest years popularized the use of dramatic superlative language ("this is EPIC!") and in so doing the language has lost the very bite it held not but twenty years ago. In 1991, if I had said, "This is epic!", you would know I was very, very excited about something. If today, in 2011, I say "This is epic!", all you know is that I liked it. I may as well have said "This is I enjoyed it. [/straightface monotone]" We have to step down the ladder towards lesser adjectives like "excellent" or "superb" to communicate with one another that we really liked something very much. And that is sad.

Same thing happens with negative emotions like "terrible" or "horrendous", etc. People will say that something is "fucking awful" where they really meant to say not even that it was awful but merely that it was bad. For example, someone puts a little too much salt in a bowl of spaghetti and makes it taste unpleasantly salty. You'd say "this food tastes bad" ordinarily if you can still stomach it. If it doesn't make you PUKE right there and then. But no: today's kid will immediately reach for the most superlative language he can muster and say that the dish tastes "fucking awful!" Nooooooooo, young man, "fucking awful" would be if it tasted like shit mixed with vomit mixed with skunk juice. "Awful" would be if it tasted like vomit alone. Your dish is too salty? Oh, that's too bad! .................... GET OVER IT and quit saying it's "fucking awful"!

Interjection: I'm not immune to this. I do it too. We all do it. It's part of our generation's expression, unfortunately, a bad habit we've all picked up from the Internet and from 21st century film and television. "If I don't tell them it was the worst thing ever, they won't care!" Maybe not: but if you begin saying that EVERY bad thing is the worst thing ever, then you've ruined those words for when you really need them.

So back to Triad. This guy said that Nutbladder's subs were "fucking terrible" and I just had to say something. Bad, maybe. (I personally would say they're bad. But that's because I have a stick up my ass when it comes to translating things. ;p) Awful? No. Fucking awful? Fucking terrible? Absolutely not. If you want "fucking terrible," let me upload the first few pages from a really crappily-drawn (but really hot premise) FF7 comic I found the other day. If the credits are to be believed, English should be the first language of the person who wrote this story, so keep that in mind as you see what "fucking terrible" translations would look like:

first page post-cover
second page post-cover

Keep in mind, I'm pretty sure this was all done by Westerners. First of all, no self-respecting Japanese comic artist would have published such terrible drawings. Jokes aside, the credits are listed to Fang Russel for the art, Rico for the story, and Brothers, Inc. for the circle. The comic is also drawn up in Western comic order, meaning you start at the top left of the page and you read to the right and down. But still: this, had it been a translation, would be what I would consider to be "fucking awful." "Who will not angry when seeing those two walking"??? "Why I must angry"??? "Luckily no one see my reckless"??? WTF!? THIS would be when you'd say, "Oh man, Triad, I have to wait for your subs because Nutbladder are fucking terrible."

And yet that fool used that same language, "fucking terrible", to describe subs that have fluent English with only the occasional hiccup in English grammar (b/c not everyone can be anal about linguistics like me ;p) or the occasional typo (ditto). Their actual translations are pretty good. They're certainly better / more accurate than the shit translations people pay some hentai "translators" to do.

Hey look! In the time it took me to write that long-winded ramble about /b/tards and language and stuff, Nutbladder pushed out Kaiji S2 Ep13! Yay! Off we go!
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 01:43 PM   #170
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
I wouldn't even call that FF7 comic awful, merely amateurish. Even the clumsiest of doujins are practically indistinguishable from many professional works, Americans have trouble reaching that modicum of quality.

And boys, Kaiji is OUT.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:22 PM   #171
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Kaiji S2 Episode 13 was good. Actually, it was a great intermission episode, but since it is only just that -- an intermission episode -- it's not exactly like I was über excited at any point. But it was pretty durn good.

Spoiler: show
Endoh's Greed:
Endoh is one greedy son of a bitch! Yes, admittedly he's the one fronting most of the capital, but it's Kaiji who's come up with the plan! I'm just glad that the old 90/10 split between Kaiji and Sakazaki or whatever it was is gone now. I was getting really worried there for a second that Kaiji was only going to get 350 million from the Bog, of which he'd have to give Endoh 113 million, and then of the remaining 237 million that he was only going to get 10% of that, or 23.7 million yen. What a scam!

Trusting Endoh:
I was really surprised to see Kaiji turn to Endoh. I had kept thinking of either Sahara (impossible) or Kaiji's old friend who got him into this mess in the first place (highly unlikely), but I definitely didn't expect to turn around and see Endoh forming the third leg of the three-man team. Certainly, it's true that he's the only guy Kaiji can turn to for money in a desperate situation like this, but WTH. This man not only roped you into the Espoir and the Starside Hotel gambles, he even drugged you and sent you to slave labor tens of miles underground! Dude! How can you trust this guy? We'll just have to wait and see what happens, but I have a very bad feeling about the contract. Whether it be something to do with the three crows bit (e.g. Endoh makes a three 三 into a five 五) or whether it be some fine print in the contract that, despite Kaiji's best efforts to avoid being scammed, Endoh later doctors to fuck Kaiji over. Oh well. Let's just hope Kaiji gets his 200 million after all.

Mikoko's Power:
lol @ the outcome of the horse race. Wouldn't have been so lol had he blown it all, though! I was confused by Nutbladder's translating the name as "Miranda" but it made sense once they revealed that they did it only because no other name in English resembles the word "miracle". Still, even in the original Japanese that was once forced pun!

Kaiji's Plan:
I still don't know what his plan is to get past the forest of pins. I was really hoping that Kaiji's snooping around on the sixth floor was going to be shown in today's episode, but I'm not too surprised now in hindsight that it wasn't. Obviously they're going to save such a juicy revelation for later. Oh well.

I also don't know how Kaiji thinks he's cracked the case on the flippers. Unless he plans to somehow break into the machine without getting caught and to replace the flippers with some fakes that'll jam after so many uses (LOL NO WAY) or to disconnect them from the arms which mechanically move them (LOL NO WAY), I don't see how he can suddenly get past them. All he saw were some broken mechanical pieces. No wires to be messed with electromagnetically. No computer chips to be hacked. No cubes to be excited over. No nothing, just broken pieces of metal and plastic. Hmm.

But as for the third obstacle -- the three trays -- Kaiji thinks he's figured out how to get past them this episode. Sakazaki seems to think it would work. So does Endoh, who gives the overall plan a 50% chance of success, accounting for such things as unpredicted further obstacles. So what could Kaiji have figured out that would give him such a boost in his odds of winning and which has to do with construction? I have a theory, but it's pretty crazy. I don't think it's right, but if you don't want to expand this next spoiler box so I don't influence your own thinking, I understand.

Spoiler: show
Is Kaiji planning a detonation? Something to shake the building? And thereby shake The Bog itself? And in such a way that the house can't necessarily claim Kaiji cheated? (After all, the house rules forbid shaking the machine through direct means. They don't say anything about shaking the whole entire building!)

If I'm right, that could explain why he needs such a large additional sum of money and why Endoh feels it's going to be necessary to hire some additional hands. And it certainly explains the construction side of things. But it seems too crazy to be true. I myself don't even believe it. Yet it's the only thing I can feebly come up with right now. Can't think of how else Kaiji might be planning to surpass the third obstacle.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 03:33 PM   #172
Doppleganger
我が名は勇者王!
 
Doppleganger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Emina Isle
Posts: 14,198
Send a message via AIM to Doppleganger
Spoiler: show
When Kaiji said "that man" I figured it referred to Endou. He may have effectively screwed over Kaiji, but Kaiji doesn't seem to think of it that way. He's certainly no Yasuoka, but we've seen he's a low ranking member of Teiai and is at least trustworthy when using paper.

Plus, he's introduced Kaiji to two of the three opportunities he's had to repay his debts - remember how ecstatic Kaiji was to see him in the first episode? Endou's the dirtiest snake we've seen in a Fukumoto work yet, but he can still be charmed.

I have no idea what Kaiji's planning to do. Last week at least tried to give some clues. But now, I have no idea. I mean, what can one get from a scene like this?



Great episode for expressions. Kaiji going crazy after biting into his cup sno-cone was another fantastic one I don't have time to cap.
__________________
あなたの勇気が切り開く未来
ふたりの想いが見つけだす希望
今 信じあえる
あきらめない 心かさね
永遠を抱きしめて
Doppleganger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 04:10 PM   #173
McSweeney
Soul Badge
 
McSweeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 1,488
Spoiler: show
I think Kaiji was desperately searching for cubes in that debris pile. When he did not find one, a revelation ... !
"THE BOG IS AN ABOMINATION THAT MUST BE DESTROYED."

I have no idea how the construction workers figure into the plan. Dig a tunnel to infiltrate the building, so they can screw with the machine?
__________________


Smoking Gary sez:
"Stay in school kidz"
McSweeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 04:18 PM   #174
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
^ Love it.

I also love that we've got another weapon to add to our arsenal of tissue box jokes. Now it's not just tissue boxes: it's tissue boxes and cubes! Oh, Kaiji.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2011, 11:23 AM   #175
Talon87
時の彼方へ
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,578
Aw man. Unless I just got trolled, I just heard on Nutbladder's blog post for last week's episode that this week's episode is a recap episode. So we're going to have to wait another eight days before we can see the next real chapter.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > Anime


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.