big bad birtha's suggestion box 2: secret passions unveiled

[Talon87]

Gintama':
Just finished Episode 211. Wow. "Shit just got real" is a saying that's bandied about almost as carelessly these days as the word "epic," but I can honestly claim that shit just got real in this episode.

Spoiler: show

MAJOR spoiler for the series.

Spoiler: show

Otose dies.

They started a new story arc last episode having to do with the so-called Four Devas, the four powerful factions which each have a partial claim to running the show in the Kabuki district. One of the factions, the yakuza, is run by an ex-samurai named Jirocho. He was Otose's husband's best friend. He also loved Otose. He also murdered her husband, his best friend. And now, years later, in his bid to take over the Kabuki district, he kills off the weakest of the four Devas -- Otose.

There's a pretty epic fight between Gintoki and Jirocho but it only lasts five or so minutes. Jirocho emerges the victor -- while Gintoki skewered Jirocho's right shoulder with a shard of his wooden sword, Jirocho managed to destroy the sword as well as impale Gintoko's arm with his own samurai sword. He also nailed Gintoki's legs during the fight, rendering Gintoki half-crippled at the end of the fight. Episode finishes with the sad scene of Gintoki, broken, crawling towards Otose's dead body. She'd look like she was just taking a nap in the rain were it not for the blood trickling down her mouth and the massive red stain in the side of her kimono.

Things like this happen in epic stories all the time, but to see it happen in Gintama is particularly powerful/surprising because ...

Spoiler: show

Same major spoiler as before.

Spoiler: show

... the heroes almost never die in Shonen Jump series like this one. On occasion they'll die in a more action-oriented series like Naruto or One Piece, and even then it's pretty rare for them to die and stay dead. But Otose was a major supporting character in Gintama -- I'd say she was the Naruto equivalent of Jiraiya or Tsunade, the One Piece equivalent of one of the main pirates who isn't named Luffy, Zoro, Nami, or Robin -- and Gintama has often broken the fourth wall joking about how it follows the Sazae-san style of storytelling. What we in the West jokingly refer to as the Simpsons style of storytelling -- the years may pass but the characters never seemingly age or die. So perhaps it would be best to compare Otose's death with Maude's death in the Simpsons -- and to then step it up a notch and say, "No, instead of it being some second-rate supporting character like Maude, have it be a major supporting character like Miss Crabapple, Principal Skinner, or Mr. Burns." Have Mr. Burns die and stay dead. That's what Otose's death is like. "B-but ... you're not supposed to die. ;_;"

Gintama:
Meanwhile, on Gintama proper I'm through Episode 39. The episode where Gintoki helps Santa Claus deliver toys for Christmas, Episode 37, was awesome. Until the part where Santa farted on Kagura's sleeping face. That was kinda weird. But the episode where Katsura lays low by working at the ramen shop, Episode 39, was probably the best serious Gintama episode I've seen so far. It's a cliché story but I really enjoyed Gintama's take on it and I love Katsura's character anyway so I always welcome more development for him. Not much of a shipper, but I'd definitely ship Katsura x Ikumatsu. Kinda difficult/sad to do, though, since ...

Spoiler: show

Katsura's Joi faction is directly responsible for the death of Ikumatsu's husband. Even though it's clear she came to like Katsura and struggled with those feelings, the reality is that yeeeeeeeeeeeeesh it's damn near impossible to fall in love with the guy responsible for your beloved's death.

But yeah. I'd so totally support that pairing. Here's hoping she returns in later episodes.

HOLY SHIT, just found this on the Gintama Wiki. Good news, Bad news.

• bad news: it doesn't look like she's ever appeared again
• good news: if she does ... check out who her namesake is!

  Ikumatsu's name is the same as the name of the geisha that hid Kogoro Katsura (the real person whom Katsura Kotarou was based on) during the 1860s; she later became his wife.

YES!

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Talon87

Is the Muv-Luv thread still off-limits for posting?

It's up to Dopple. Wasn't sure if it's okay to post there yet, but if you'd like us to move the discussion from now on then we can. I'm thinking about going ahead and copying/splitting all relevant posts to the topic once I finish the game anyway.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

About that-

Spoiler: show

When I heard how Marimo died, I realized that the description of her death matched what happened when the BETA killed/devoured her counterpart in Alternative. The heavy causality information is flowing out of Alternative and into Extra, after all. Once that happened to Sumika, the nature of the injury made me realize what happened to Sumika in Alternative. Takeru was far too devastated to realize this, though.

Spoiler: show

So does this prove Takeru doesn't require knowledge of an event in Alternative in order for it to affect Extra? Sumika wouldn't happen to be one of the senior girls who got run over in the Humvee accident, would she? Although a car crash would be even easier to emulate in Extra, so maybe not... Was she crushed under that TSF rubble next to Takeru's house? XD

On chapter 8 now-

Spoiler: show

So instead of Kasumi turning out to be a robot, it's Sumika? Guess her blank gaze in the OP should've been an indication...

Sampled the first episodes of Sayonara Zetsubou Sensei and Tenchi Muyo at the library. Episode 10 of HanaIro was weird. A progressive outcome, but strange/confusing choice of presentation at some parts. Ano Hana was superb. Can't think of anything to add beyond what Talon said right now, but if I do I'll make a post in the thread.

On an unrelated note, seems my laptop screen is really on the brink of death. Now it flickers like crazy after a while and the backlight eventually shuts off (though I can still see a faint image). I really hope it lasts long enough for me to at least finish Ano Hana...

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

It's up to Dopple. Wasn't sure if it's okay to post there yet, but if you'd like us to move the discussion from now on then we can. I'm thinking about going ahead and copying/splitting all relevant posts to the topic once I finish the game anyway.

I'm fine with it, though you'll have to move most of the ML-only posts here to there, which I think should work fine so since the order is preserved. I'll go search for them sometime tomorrow.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

So does this prove Takeru doesn't require knowledge of an event in Alternative in order for it to affect Extra? Sumika wouldn't happen to be one of the senior girls who got run over in the Humvee accident, would she? Although a car crash would be even easier to emulate in Extra, so maybe not... Was she crushed under that TSF rubble next to Takeru's house? XD

Spoiler: show

He doesn't have to be aware of the event for it to flow from Alternative into Extra. It's interesting that you suggest the Humvee accident, some think that the events flowed into the past as well. All of the senpais in A-01 are from prior age games - Mitsuki and Haruka from Kimi Ga Nozomu Eien, Munakata, Toukou, and Isumi from Kimi Ga Ita Kietsu. Both took place in Extra, and in Extra, Haruka had a car-related accident like she did in Alternative.

But it's not a theory with a ton of support, since Yuuhi is dead in Extra, but alive in Alternative.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

So instead of Kasumi turning out to be a robot, it's Sumika? Guess her blank gaze in the OP should've been an indication...

Spoiler: show

It's complicated.

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Spoiler: show

It's complicated.

Spoiler: show

Yuuko-sensei's explaining some of it to me now. Ooh, transferring a human soul into a robotic vessel? This really is similar to Planet Ladder. The short-term goal may be different, but the long-term objective and methods are practically the same. Hm, and Planet Ladder actually came first...

(Will continue to reply here for convenience unless/til Talon boots us out. XP)

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

Yuuko-sensei's explaining some of it to me now. Ooh, transferring a human soul into a robotic vessel? This really is similar to Planet Ladder. The short-term goal may be different, but the long-term objective and methods are practically the same. Hm, and Planet Ladder actually came first...

(Will continue to reply here for convenience unless/til Talon boots us out. XP)

Spoiler: show

I don't know about soul, but it's conceptually similar. But it doesn't matter to Yuuko one bit if the 00 Unit actually is Sumika, or a new being with Sumika's memories.

I hadn't heard of Planet Ladder, but that there's a character named "Kagami" in it is pretty interesting.

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Spoiler: show

I don't know about soul, but it's conceptually similar. But it doesn't matter to Yuuko one bit if the 00 Unit actually is Sumika, or a new being with Sumika's memories.

I hadn't heard of Planet Ladder, but that there's a character named "Kagami" in it is pretty interesting.

Spoiler: show

Of course, there are numerous differences in the characters' motives and backgrounds. But the basic idea is strikingly similar. Transfer a human's "soul" into a body that would never die. Even if Yuuko's plan differs from Planet Ladder's attempt to directly keep the "soul" alive, ultimately both efforts are to ensure humanity's survival as a whole. Planet Ladder's Take even dreamed of taking the technology back home to aid Japanese soldiers on the battlefield, hoping so far as to make it so no one in the world would ever die during times of war.

I haven't actually read past volume three, which is where the entirety of the tale I'm referencing takes place. It's a sidestory that easily stands on its own, considering I started with it instead of the first volume. It basically just serves as a backstory for the series' anti-hero(?). None of the other main characters, inluding Kagami, are directly related to it, and are merely an unseen audience for the most part.

I don't know how good the series is as a whole, but I don't think it was that popular. I wouldn't expect you to have heard of it, especially since it's a shoujo manga. Still, I do consider volume 03 worth checking out on its own, even if only to compare and contrast to Muv-Luv. Like I said, Alternative IV is surprisingly a lot like the planet's research. When it failed, they could only desperately turn their hopes to escape like in Alternative V... Except their problem was a lot more difficult to flee from than an alien invasion...

[Doppleganger]

Spoiler: show

The "quantization of the soul" was an idea explored in Kikokugai as well, but the implications of that was really the central focus. That is, "is a child really the same person as the adult he/she grows up to be"? kind of exploration. Alternative places the same emphasis but it's really part of the larger theme of nature/nurture and individuality. Takeru's been reflecting on whether or not the people between Extra/Alternative are the same people since Unlimited. To them, he's the real Takeru - he's the only Takeru they've ever known, so they wouldn't even consider the idea of him being an imposter.

But now, we have a person who actually knew Alternative's natural born Takeru, so for the first time, it seems, Takeru is going to be evaluated by "Sumika", on top of Takeru having the same issues he's had with his squadmates, only worse now since he's in love with Sumika.

And you're right, I'm not familiar with that manga. My sister isn't either, and she's a "shoujou buff", though in my opinion she's just as bad as my Dad, since she only reads bland romance stuff.

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Spoiler: show

The "quantization of the soul" was an idea explored in Kikokugai as well, but the implications of that was really the central focus. That is, "is a child really the same person as the adult he/she grows up to be"? kind of exploration. Alternative places the same emphasis but it's really part of the larger theme of nature/nurture and individuality. Takeru's been reflecting on whether or not the people between Extra/Alternative are the same people since Unlimited. To them, he's the real Takeru - he's the only Takeru they've ever known, so they wouldn't even consider the idea of him being an imposter.

But now, we have a person who actually knew Alternative's natural born Takeru, so for the first time, it seems, Takeru is going to be evaluated by "Sumika", on top of Takeru having the same issues he's had with his squadmates, only worse now since he's in love with Sumika.

And you're right, I'm not familiar with that manga. My sister isn't either, and she's a "shoujou buff", though in my opinion she's just as bad as my Dad, since she only reads bland romance stuff.

Spoiler: show

Since the research never came to fruition in volume 03, the theory behind "quantization of the soul" was never very fully expored. However, now that I think about it, Planet Ladder's Kagami is actually similar to Sumika in that I believe he was a "success" produced years later by the head of the project (who, although not as hardhearted as Yuuko, never developed proper human responses due to circumstances beyond his control). Kagami too lost his emotions and memories for the most part, but would regain his "sanity" on occasion. He also bears an uncontrollable killing intent towards anyone who'd threaten the protagonist, whom he has a close past relationship to.

I really am curious to read the rest of this manga now. I don't expect it to nearly match up to the production level and development of Muv-Luv, but the coincidences are just too uncanny to pass up. Plus it's making me nostalgic. I've never been able to find complete scans online though, and I highly doubt it'd still be stocked in stores.

Planet Ladder is more your typical fantasy "girl gets pulled into another world and has the power to save it", although it's a bit different since she shoulders the weight of multiple worlds (like Takeru!). It's loosely based off the tale of Kaguya-hime. The story doesn't focus so much on romance from what I've seen, though there are a few obviously girly touches here and there. ...At least there are no random flowers or sparkles.

Honestly, I didn't even know the author was female or that the manga was specifically shoujo until I read the first volume's afterword - actually it just confused me more since her characterization appeared androgynous. >.>; I just wondered: "Why would a guy dream of drawing comics for young girls?" XD Remember this was the first manga I ever read, so I didn't know much about the culture or market. ^^;

[Doppleganger]

I think the man to dive right into it is BBB, since he's spearheading all the shoujou stuff. I'm interested as well, but unless it's easily reached online (and it's out of print, to top things off) I doubt I'll be able to devote toward it.

Also, now that you're at Yuuko's explanation, how about a spoiler from Extra?

Spoiler: show

[McSweeney]

I read Gambling Emperor Zero PART 1. Have no fear big bad birtha, notice the emphasis on PART 1. That was not the end of the story. That would make for a hilarious ending though. "Ummm ... oops?"

It's quite different from Kaiji. It would be more appropriate to call it Puzzle Emperor Zero. I was expecting dice games, playing cards and mahjong. Instead, it was more like:



Zero is attending a sort of "carnival from hell", where he can choose between many different games to earn rings. The goal is to earn three rings to advance to the next round. The prize: a mind boggling one trillion yen. All the games are divided into three difficulty levels:

Safe - If you lose, you are eliminated from the competition.
Mild - If you lose, you are eliminated from the competition, and suffer severe bodily injury.
Hard - If you lose, you die.

Problem is, there's long lineups for safe games, and there's a time limit to earn three rings. The jobber contestants either stick to the safe games, or play the dangerous ones that require a team of multiple people, piggybacking on smarter contestants (like Zero). As smart as Zero is, though, there's one guy at the competition who solves the games even faster than him named Shirube ... a potential rival. A Gary Oak to his Ash Ketchum, if you will. Although he doesn't possess Gary Oak's delightful dickery, he's rather quiet actually.

Here's an example of one of the games:



Zero is brought to an elevated platform, and is allowed to observe the area for 10 seconds. Afterwards he is blindfolded, then spun around so he can't remember which side is which. He is then told that he must jump to one of the sides. One leads to a safe platform, the other three will make him plummet to his death. As an added twist, each side has a fellow contestant trying to convince him to jump to their side. Whichever side he chooses, that contestant will get a bonus ring, thus their incentive to convince him, even if it's the wrong side.

If I had to rate this against Kaiji, I give Kaiji the edge. It's more logically sound. When Kaij comes up with a plan, it's both awesome and makes perfect sense. Zero is a little TOO smart, he sometimes comes upon the correct answer too miraculously, Death Note style. They always play up how Zero is supposed to be a super genius, so I have no problems with him being able to do complicated math equations. I just wonder how he got the idea to do the math equation in the first place?

Still, pretty awesome manga and looking forward to part 2.

[Talon87]

That still seems intense though. That quarter jump stage seems impossible to solve. I'd be fascinated to see how he could conclude which direction faces the safe platform.

Interesting that the Japanese mix their units with ours. He clearly wrote 60 seconds as 60秒, but then he used s in notation for things like m/s.

[McSweeney]

The quarter jump game was clever. It's all about talking to the four guys and trying to expose their lies. And no, you're not allowed to throw objects, so he couldn't just take off his jacket and throw it at one of the sides and listen to the sound. Personally, my own idea was to use sonar. I'd yell at each of the sides and listen for an echo. I don't even know if that would work, though.

The problems are so difficult that I was pretty proud of myself for getting a couple of them right, like the Luxembourg GDP question, during the quiz show (from hell). No way would I stand a chance at this damn place, though.

[Talon87]

So, is the part where you and bbb are stuck where the English scanlations end? or is it where the manga itself has wrapped up so far and he's written nothing new? Either way, given what bbb said about how frustrating it was to get to the ending, and given that you've shone light on that frustration as being frustration about not being able to press onward with the story, I think I'll pass on Zero for now. I would rather read it all in one go than read Part 1 now and then have to re-read Part 1 again to refresh my memory before diving into Part 2 in x years.

But Double Dare meets Jeopardy meets Fukumoto definitely sounds interesting.

[McSweeney]

The latter. Fukumoto isn't going to resume Zero until he finishes another Kaiji arc, I've heard.

[Doppleganger]

Got the new Ano Hana and S;G, gonna watch them in a bit.

But first, HeartCatch PreCure's childhood friend episode! Bwahahaha, this is so awesome! Why?

Because now it's the girls who are dense/clueless. What a twist! :3

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Got the new Ano Hana

How/from who. No one's released it yet out of gg, Doki, or UTW. Were you just a week behind and you've finally gotten to see Episode 08? Who else is subbing AnoHana? Tosho is showing zero results for anything newer than Episode 08. And Doki's reporting that AnoHana Ep09 doesn't even air until later today (June 9) at 16:15 UTC (GMT). Meaning 11:15am EDT, meaning it hasn't even aired yet.

Sorry about the Kaiji spoiler btw. I know it's not the biggest spoiled detail in the world but I still feel bad about it. Wasn't even thinking about it in the context of "omg spoilerz" when I wrote it.

[big bad birtha]

I was gonna wait until a full patch for the last chapter of Gilligan's Island was out, but with a possibility to read further into the story readily available, I decided to start reading the last chapter with the 50% patch.

I also intend on rereading Gilligan's Island later on, since I know who the culprit is. I'd like to see what kinds of hints it gives out. Though, I might wait until a full PS3 patch is out for that.

[Doppleganger]

Saw Episode 31 of HC PreCure, the story's hopefuly entering its final stretches. There's 49 episodes total though, so I don't know.

For those who have completed MLA:

Spoiler: show

age recently announced Muv-Luv Unlimited: The Day After 01, the second installment of TDA that takes place after MLU, but before MLA.

...

Also, I've heard Sunrise's new Gundam anime is going to imitate many of the popular children's card game anime (YGO, Cardfight!! Vanguard), suggesting a move away from fujoshi/otaku pandering moe with mecha. Is this a sign the winds are changing?

[Talon87]

Probably not. This particular Gundam is unique in that the lead writer (or maybe it's the head producer? I forget) is the same one who worked on the Professor Layton games for the Nintendo DS. So it's going to basically be "Gundam for Kids." So I'm not surprised at all to hear you say that it's (a) not pandering to 20-year old men and (b) is copycatting some elements from series which have been wildly popular with pre-teen boys.

For now, I won't be checking it out simply because the character designs look "uninspired", which is as polite of a word as I can think of for saying "boring as fuck." ^^; But if it turns out that character designs schmaracter designs the story is amazing, then sure, I'd be up for it. Not really a Gundam guy though in my experience. Made it 8 or 10 or so (I forget) episodes through the original Gundam before I dropped it. It was just too old, slow, difficult to be excited about.

[Doppleganger]

The original Mobile Suit Gundam is kind of a catcus for me - on the one hand, it's so influential and its universe/logic actually fairly well thought out, it's worth seeing. Heck, MSG heavily influenced Muv-Luv too. For example I was shocked to learn that the Zaku had 120mm machine guns and they were useless against Amuro's RX-78. In MLA, the 120mm cannon is the most powerful arm-fired weapon available to a TSF. It's not a machine gun (it holds an eight round magazine, and TSFs only carry a handful of extras), and it's not ineffective.

But as you say, MSG is old, and from what I've seen it doesn't hold up against age well. And I've seen Ideon, which came immediately after MSG. I'd love for a retelling of MSG that didn't embellish the original story with pandering, like GS and GSD were, but that seems unlikely since Tomino seems fed up with Bandai and their toyetic approach to his franchise.

[big bad birtha]

I've read quite a bit into chapter 8 of Gilligan's Island. This chapter's pretty much giving closure to everything, which it's doing a pretty good job of. It also seems that this title is going to go in a different direction than Higurashi did with the ending, which is a good thing. Lets hope things don't go full on retard like Higurashi's last chapter did.

[lilboocorsola]

Finished MLA.

Mm... Like BBB I can't say I felt as strongly about it as Dopple, but it was a good read. The reason I've been quiet since my last update is because things pretty much became obvious or predictable after Chapter 8. The plot was still enjoyable, but I no longer felt the same level of dramatic and emotional tension I did in Chapter 7.

Spoiler: show

To be honest, once I realized the story would follow the pattern of "use 'em and lose 'em", I knew Captain Isumi would be next on the list. Followed by the rest of the Valkyries, whose sole purpose of introduction could easily be seen a mile away as playing extra "spares" so the main characters wouldn't have to suffer losses. Ugh. I'm not trying to dissociate myself here, I lament their passing. I just feel more sorry for them for playing into the writers' hands, and annoyed at the writers for taking such a conventional route. I just feel it cheapens the characters' deaths somehow, including Marimo's.

I guess I was expecting Takeru to be hit with more shocking tragedies close to home, and eventually prove he's grown up enough to be able to handle them on the battlefield. Even at the very end, his entire unit - whom he's trained and shared the most experiences with - withheld their plans and sacrifices from him in fear that he'd freak out again, instead of trusting him to make the right decision. Such "progress" doesn't sit well with me.

On a related note, for a character-driven novel, I was disappointed with how all the original squad members pretty much got pushed aside after the coup d'etat. After ignoring them for so long, I felt hardly any more attachment to them at the end than I did towards Isumi's Valkyries. Maybe I've just managed to harden my heart like Yuuko, but I didn't weep one bit at the thought or image of any person's death, instead maintaining focus on the outcome of the mission. However, I would start tearing up later during the funeral, or when the victim or bereaved let out her feelings. Wonder if this means I'm the type of person, who, like Marimo (and Yuuko), would act first under pressure and mourn by herself later. Hard to say without actually being confronted with that kind of situation, and I hope I'll never have to... But at the same time I wonder whether I'd display such indifference then, and whether that's a good or bad thing.

Speaking of, I really liked the scene where Yuuko held Marimo's portrait and spoke to her as the shuttle took off. I know enough Japanese to understand what she said, but even just that image was powerful and revealing enough for me. I never lost faith that Yuuko was a true softie at heart who purposefully cut off her emotions to get the job done, nor do I blame her for it. I can see her avoiding public ceremonies and markers, instead only allowing herself to drink and confess her sins to Marimo's photo on her desk when she's all alone in her office.

Overall, I feel MLA could've used more unexpected twists and development. The story had a lot of good core potential, I just wish it would've expanded on some aspects a bit more. A few mysteries were still left unexplained. Such as...

Spoiler: show

What were the twins in Sumika's dream about? I refuse to believe it was just random, or a red herring. Could they have been referring to Meiya and Yuuhi?

What happened to Alternative's world once Takeru left? Did humanity win against the BETA? (How could they if there are still 10^37 hives left in space? Wouldn't they just keep coming for that material they were after?) Did they establish communication? What are the BETA really? I know it was probably left up to the reader's imagination on purpose, but after building up the mystery surrounding them for so long, I expected some more concrete answers.

Why was Kasumi so grateful to Sumika in the end? Did that mean Sumika used her "willpower" to send her to Extra's world? The whole happy "everyone's alive and together" ending, while cute, felt kinda off. A deus ex, if you well. With Takeru's memories wiped, it's like he's back to square one. In fact, it reminds me a lot of Clannad After Story's ending, only worse since Takeru's literally lost all that wisdom and experience that turned him from a puppet into a man.

I also feel kinda cheated by Sumika's self-sacrifice. I figured from the beginning she was the reason Takeru became a causality conductor, so I was looking forward to the moment Takeru would finally come to that realization and have to choose between saving the worlds or (a copy of) his loved one. The whole theme of "What is love?" could apply heavily to the idea of loving someone enough to either protect them at any cost, or to be able to destroy them with your own hands, giving them a "noble death" rather than "making them survive" against their wishes. (You could even argue the latter would be "saving in the name of love". *shot* "Be not afraid to dirty your own hands." *shot again*) I wanted to see how Takeru would react when confronted with that kind of conflict compared to Shirou, who threw away his hero badge to stand by Sakura in Heaven's Feel. I suppose Takeru was forced to make a similar decision with Meiya, but it felt like a cop-out and didn't even focus on "love" much since Takeru only had eyes for Sumika at this point.

On that note, forgive me if I'm wrong, Dopple, but I thought you gave the impression that this was one of the greatest "childhood friends" stories you've read. Again, I might've misinterpreted your words to mean something opposite, so I apologize. I just didn't see anything that made Takeru's and Sumika's relationship particularly "special" this time round, or even justified the depth of it. To me, it just seemed by chance the memory of that branch flowed into Takeru and caused him to focus on Sumika this time rather than some other girl. Unless it was purely Brain!Sumika's willpower that drew him to her all along, which isn't really any better than mind control? At the very least I expected a heartfelt exchange between the two before her demise, but Takeru could barely talk to her - let alone directly - in the Susano'o.

Sorry if I'm sounding overly critical. On the mysteries and character relationships, maybe I'm too used to approaching VNs like the Infinity games, where everything and everyone is important and all tie together in the end, even if the connections aren't always clear like in Remember11. If something wasn't fully explained like kick-the-can, it usually wasn't vital to understand or appreciate the central plot, and the number of other clues given in both were still more than enough to satisfy. It's just that I had very high anticipations of Muv-Luv thanks to the hype... Was I expecting too much to be fed to me on a silver spoon? ^^; I can imagine how an E17 veteran would feel frustrated at R11's ending, so perhaps I was just lucky to experience them in reverse order.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Finished MLA.

Mm... Like BBB I can't say I felt as strongly about it as Dopple, but it was a good read. The reason I've been quiet since my last update is because things pretty much became obvious or predictable after Chapter 8. The plot was still enjoyable, but I no longer felt the same level of dramatic and emotional tension I did in Chapter 7..

Spoiler: show

To be honest, once I realized the story would follow the pattern of "use 'em and lose 'em", I knew Captain Isumi would be next on the list. Followed by the rest of the Valkyries, whose sole purpose of introduction could easily be seen a mile away as playing extra "spares" so the main characters wouldn't have to suffer losses. Ugh. I'm not trying to dissociate myself here, I lament their passing. I just feel more sorry for them for playing into the writers' hands, and annoyed at the writers for taking such a conventional route. I just feel it cheapens the characters' deaths somehow, including Marimo's.

Spoiler: show

I felt it predictable only in the sense of A-01 being sent on suicide mission after suicide mission. We already know they have had casualties in every major engagement, and the difficulty of those engagements just got worse and worse, so it seemed natural that characters would be killed off in that fashion. They even joked about it before it happened, because it's such a common story with a special forces team.

I was expecting most of the cast to die off, Yuuko and Takeru included, by the ending. The real surprise came in the Eishi who survived, especially Tsukuyomi.

MLA didn't really show what TSF fighting was like before the XM3 (TDA will cover this) but it's really an attrition fight, with heavy casualties. Even for a unit like A-01, the most elite in the UN Army, they suffered casualties from a small expansionary force like the one that stormed through Niigata, but only lost two in a worst-case scenario during Sadogashima.

If there was a shock, I think, it was how Unlimited (which helped set up Alternative in the first place) came back over and over to sabotage Alternative. Had Takeru not had a flashback to Mt. Tengen, Isumi and Kashiwagi wouldn't have died, and it would have been less likely the deaths that came after them would have happened. But Mt. Tengen wouldn't have exploded if the Americans hadn't used G-Bombs, and if they hadn't used G-Bombs Takeru wouldn't have come to Alternative in the first place.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

On a related note, for a character-driven novel, I was disappointed with how all the original squad members pretty much got pushed aside after the coup d'etat. After ignoring them for so long, I felt hardly any more attachment to them at the end than I did towards Isumi's Valkyries. Maybe I've just managed to harden my heart like Yuuko, but I didn't weep one bit at the thought or image of any person's death, instead maintaining focus on the outcome of the mission. However, I would start tearing up later during the funeral, or when the victim or bereaved let out her feelings. Wonder if this means I'm the type of person, who, like Marimo (and Yuuko), would act first under pressure and mourn by herself later. Hard to say without actually being confronted with that kind of situation, and I hope I'll never have to... But at the same time I wonder whether I'd display such indifference then, and whether that's a good or bad thing.

Spoiler: show

If there's any weakness to the Muv-Luv saga it's that the characters have to be in constant exposure to the player, or the impact of what happens to them is lessened. This was true for Sumika, who was absent for all of MLU, and is definitely true of what happens after the coup d'etat. But MLA has pseudo "character" routes in that Takeru gets more scenes with the girl he's picked the most favourable options toward, so the development you're looking for can be found by picking more Ayamine/Chizuru/Mikoto/Tama options. Meiya still gets the lions share of attention, but she shares the spotlight a bit with the others, though some of the best Meiya scenes are gone picking these routes. Each girl also wrote a will before they left for Kashgar, and Takeru reads that will before he ceases to exist, though Kasumi doesn't confess her love to him unless one is reading Meiya's "route".

I didn't really feel disappointed that the original 207B cast was shafted for the senpais, though. We'd already covered their background extensively in MLU and the coup, so outside of their interaction with Takeru, there wasn't much left to cover. I don't want to undermine this - even though Meiya was extensively covered in Extra and Unlimited, she was at her best in Alternative simply through her relationship with Takeru. We got to move past the background stuff so the characters were finally able to live in the present.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

What were the twins in Sumika's dream about? I refuse to believe it was just random, or a red herring. Could they have been referring to Meiya and Yuuhi?

Spoiler: show

Yes, Sumika had a vision of Meiya's final thought. Takeru was right in calling it a scene from the future.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

What happened to Alternative's world once Takeru left? Did humanity win against the BETA? (How could they if there are still 10^37 hives left in space? Wouldn't they just keep coming for that material they were after?) Did they establish communication? What are the BETA really? I know it was probably left up to the reader's imagination on purpose, but after building up the mystery surrounding them for so long, I expected some more concrete answers.

Spoiler: show

This is being covered in side-materials, but the main point of the ending - and indeed, one of the larger themes of the story - was how that future isn't known or guaranteed, yet people still sacrifice everything they have to move toward it.

It's a clever contrast - Takeru is completely confident he can change the future at the start of MLA because of his knowledge of MLU, but he didn't understand that teamwork, sacrifice and courage were the real keys to making that future a reality. Even if one knows what is to come, one person can't single-handedly save the world, he needs people to help make it happen. This is why Unlimited, which repeated endlessly (hence the title!) not once broke out of the loop, because the teamwork never came together.

After Sumika died, the only reason Takeru remained in Alternative was because he was heavily conscious of humanity's uncertain future. This is why, after talking it over with Yuuko, he finally had the courage to basically accept his own end, and entrust the future to others. Throughout all of Alternative, Takeru pathologically sought to bear his burdens alone, and everyone noticed this (hence why they pushed so hard during Kashgar). So for him to accept his own destruction was the final evolution of his character, to someone who could rely on other people and be relied on.

Now that that's out of the way, I'll answer your questions on a line-by-line.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

1. What happened to Alternative's world once Takeru left? 2. Did humanity win against the BETA? (How could they if there are still 10^37 hives left in space? 3. Wouldn't they just keep coming for that material they were after?) 4. Did they establish communication? 5. What are the BETA really? I know it was probably left up to the reader's imagination on purpose, but after building up the mystery surrounding them for so long, I expected some more concrete answers.

Spoiler: show

1. It still exists, Extra only reclaimed the Takeru related information that was originally taken from it, records of Takeru still exist in Alternative (like his conversation with the BETA Superior, the piloting data in his Shiranui, etc). The Muv-Luv Alternative Chronicles preview suggests that more people remembered Takeru than Yuuko suggested. Translation:

【Yuuko】 「That's why I've said it so many times...this world was saved by a hero.」
【Yuuko】 「Crying and stumbling along the way, fighting for so long...an inexperienced hero.」
【Yuuko】 「Though it's funny...everyone still followed him...and when he found out, he also thought...」
【Yuuko】 「"Ah...I'm one of them as well."」
【Yuuko】 「Really... I can only say it's childish.」
【Yuuko】 「...Looks like talking to you normal people is a futile effort.」

2. We don't know yet. The latest Alternative material post-Takeru being dematerialized is set in 2003/2004. I can tell you that Objective 20, to reclaim the hive in Korea, went off without a hitch, and that the former members of Isumi's Valkyries who survived Alternative became instructors for the Imperial Army's Fuji Instructional Unit.

3. They've always coming, the moon frequently sends new "space ships", but the humans blast those with nukes before they land because lunar BETA haven't adapted their Laser class toward shooting down airborne weaponry yet.

4. Takeru talked with the BETA Superior of Earth, I'd call that communication.

5. They're effectively autonomous organic mining robots, created by the "silicon based life-forms". Their purpose is to make those Grey Elements, which the Level 5+ hives send outside the solar system. They see humans as other robots and competition, and don't see them as a life-form because naturally occuring organic life isn't known to their creators. It's tragic, because BETA do not invade planets that are confirmed to have "life-forms" on them.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

Why was Kasumi so grateful to Sumika in the end? Did that mean Sumika used her "willpower" to send her to Extra's world? The whole happy "everyone's alive and together" ending, while cute, felt kinda off. A deus ex, if you well. With Takeru's memories wiped, it's like he's back to square one. In fact, it reminds me a lot of Clannad After Story's ending, only worse since Takeru's literally lost all that wisdom and experience that turned him from a puppet into a man.

Spoiler: show

Haha, you're not alone in that, a lot of people, myself included, had a knee-jerk "WHAT THE FUDGE IS THIS?" reaction to that ending. Even though it was foreshadowed and flat out explained several times, it still felt really wrong coming off of the somber mood after the entire cast was killed off.

But the more I thought about it, the more I accepted it. Takeru can't return to Extra with his Alternative memories. As you saw when he tried to return during Chapter 7, he'd be like a Vietnam veteran trying to readjust to a completely different, unaccepting society. He would never again regain his lost innocence unless those memories, and sadly all his maturity, were reset.

As for why Kasumi cried, it's not clear. She could have memories of Alternative (since her Alternative counterpart is still observing Extra, and resolved to watch over Takeru for her entire life) or simply suffer from the same deja vu feeling Takeru had. What I can say is Kasumi had zero chance with Takeru in Alternative, even though she loved him. None of the girls except Sumika really had a chance, but even in Unlimited, Kasumi never got together with him. So now, at least, she has a shot in Final Extra. It might be a one in a million shot, but it's a chance, and she would be grateful to Sumika's feelings toward Kasumi getting her created in Extra, where she originally didn't exist.

Some feel that Sumika wanted to atone for her "selfishness" in Alternative by giving everyone in Extra a fair chance at Takeru. It really disadvantages her Extra counterpart, but I can't see Alternative Sumika doing anything else that doesn't explicitly benefit her.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

I also feel kinda cheated by Sumika's self-sacrifice. I figured from the beginning she was the reason Takeru became a causality conductor, so I was looking forward to the moment Takeru would finally come to that realization and have to choose between saving the worlds or (a copy of) his loved one. The whole theme of "What is love?" could apply heavily to the idea of loving someone enough to either protect them at any cost, or to be able to destroy them with your own hands, giving them a "noble death" rather than "making them survive" against their wishes. (You could even argue the latter would be "saving in the name of love". *shot* "Be not afraid to dirty your own hands." *shot again*) I wanted to see how Takeru would react when confronted with that kind of conflict compared to Shirou, who threw away his hero badge to stand by Sakura in Heaven's Feel. I suppose Takeru was forced to make a similar decision with Meiya, but it felt like a cop-out and didn't even focus on "love" much since Takeru only had eyes for Sumika at this point.

Spoiler: show

I'm shocked you'd say that! Yes, Takeru was deeply in love with Sumika, but his relationship with Meiya was fantastic in Alternative, even better than how they were in Unlimited as a couple (the "noble confidant" term actually means something like "person closest to you without being a loved one") and it's clear that even though he valued his friends as equals, Meiya was so much more important to him. They understood each other exceptionally well, and it was that understanding that helped Takeru to pull the trigger.

There's also the issue of his Unlimited memories subtley influencing his decisions - the reason he hesitated to stab Yuuhi with the triazolam was because she looked like Meiya, his love from Unlimited. He misinterpreted his hesitation as a lack of resolve, when it was actually something a bit more personal and specific.

So even though he didn't love Meiya in Alternative, he was subconsciously held back by it during that critical moment.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Spoiler: show

On that note, forgive me if I'm wrong, Dopple, but I thought you gave the impression that this was one of the greatest "childhood friends" stories you've read. Again, I might've misinterpreted your words to mean something opposite, so I apologize. I just didn't see anything that made Takeru's and Sumika's relationship particularly "special" this time round, or even justified the depth of it. To me, it just seemed by chance the memory of that branch flowed into Takeru and caused him to focus on Sumika this time rather than some other girl. Unless it was purely Brain!Sumika's willpower that drew him to her all along, which isn't really any better than mind control? At the very least I expected a heartfelt exchange between the two before her demise, but Takeru could barely talk to her - let alone directly - in the Susano'o.

I still stand by that, but Amaterasu's translation toward the end lacks the polish of the earlier chapters, so it's confusing and there's a LOT of information thrown at you. To clarify -

Spoiler: show

The star of Alternative was originally Takeru from Sumika's Route in Extra. He was chosen because of all the routes in Extra, he was the closest Takeru to the one brain Sumika was in love with. However, when he materialized in Unlimited, he lost most of his memories to void space, so to compensate both Extra/Alternative put some memories in him from other Takeru. This is why Takeru had that instinctive fear of BETA in Unlimited, despite having no reason to be afraid of them (since his AL counterpart had been killed by them) and had flashbacks to Extra events he didn't live through.

Alternative's star then repeated Unlimited countless times until in one route, his strong desire/will allowed him to retain most of his causality information, thus setting the stage for Alternative. Essentially, it was his feelings for Unlimited's heroine when he died that allowed Takeru to resist brain Sumika's universe reset, though she still succeeded in ripping out any memories specific to any one heroine.

Yuuko speculated that Takeru lost memories because he died, but I don't think this is true - given Unlimited's end, and what we're going to get in TDA 01 in a few days, it seems likely that Takeru thought of nothing but the Unlimited heroine during TDA and so those memories would be targetted for Sumika's brain wipe. Isumi even said Takeru gave off the aura of being a battle veteran, which (in my view) is probably right on the money.

I call Takeru and Sumika's relationship the best childhood romance because it's more or less a continuous, dynamic relationship from Extra through Alternative. It started out as what could only be called a one-sided superficial childhood crush but was reciprocated and matured along with the characters as they went through hardship. The two were able to use their mutual understanding and caring to help the other through tough times (Sumika for Takeru in Chapter 7, Takeru for Sumika in Chapter 8+). If the kiss Takeru and Sumika shared at the end of Extra was one between kids, the one they shared before the attack on Yokohama was one between adults.

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

Sorry if I'm sounding overly critical. On the mysteries and character relationships, maybe I'm too used to approaching VNs like the Infinity games, where everything and everyone is important and all tie together in the end, even if the connections aren't always clear like in Remember11. If something wasn't fully explained like kick-the-can, it usually wasn't vital to understand or appreciate the central plot, and the number of other clues given in both were still more than enough to satisfy. It's just that I had very high anticipations of Muv-Luv thanks to the hype... Was I expecting too much to be fed to me on a silver spoon? ^^; I can imagine how an E17 veteran would feel frustrated at R11's ending, so perhaps I was just lucky to experience them in reverse order.

You'd have to replay the game to get everything (or ask me :p), remember I played through the MLA 1st patch like 37 times, and have gone through MLA itself in full no less than 10. That, plus talking with people to see what I missed over the past four months, gave me enough information to hit on most of your questions. If you'd asked me to describe the attack waves of the Sadogashima battle immediately after I played through it the first time, I wouldn't be able to answer you at all.

Like the Infinity games, MLA is as consistent with its logic and ideas as you're used to, perhaps even moreso. Unless something is deliberately left ambiguous, there's a direct explanation for it somewhere in the game. Often, though, this info is thrown out casually since there's so much information the game has to go through! Some of your questions were given in a lecture, either Isumi's, Marimo's, or Radhabinod's. Takeru was spacing out during Isumi's lecture, and I know I myself actually did space out during it despite how interesting (and important) it was supposed to be.

I feel part of this has to do with the rough, non-proofed part of the final few chapters, since that's where a lot of important information comes out which can be quite confusing. For example,

Spoiler: show

When I was talking with BBB, I thought the BETA Superior originally wanted to save the universe. BBB pointed out the Superior was talking about its own self-preservation, not the universe in general.

[lilboocorsola]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Spoiler: show

But MLA has pseudo "character" routes in that Takeru gets more scenes with the girl he's picked the most favourable options toward, so the development you're looking for can be found by picking more Ayamine/Chizuru/Mikoto/Tama options.

Ah, okay. I was gonna ask about that. I will check out those other "routes"" on subsequent playthroughs then.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Spoiler: show

Yes, Sumika had a vision of Meiya's final thought. Takeru was right in calling it a scene from the future.

Spoiler: show

What did she mean by "getting bigger and smaller" then?

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Spoiler: show

Haha, you're not alone in that, a lot of people, myself included, had a knee-jerk "WHAT THE FUDGE IS THIS?" reaction to that ending. Even though it was foreshadowed and flat out explained several times, it still felt really wrong coming off of the somber mood after the entire cast was killed off.

But the more I thought about it, the more I accepted it. Takeru can't return to Extra with his Alternative memories. As you saw when he tried to return during Chapter 7, he'd be like a Vietnam veteran trying to readjust to a completely different, unaccepting society. He would never again regain his lost innocence unless those memories, and sadly all his maturity, were reset.

As for why Kasumi cried, it's not clear. She could have memories of Alternative (since her Alternative counterpart is still observing Extra, and resolved to watch over Takeru for her entire life) or simply suffer from the same deja vu feeling Takeru had. What I can say is Kasumi had zero chance with Takeru in Alternative, even though she loved him. None of the girls except Sumika really had a chance, but even in Unlimited, Kasumi never got together with him. So now, at least, she has a shot in Final Extra. It might be a one in a million shot, but it's a chance, and she would be grateful to Sumika's feelings toward Kasumi getting her created in Extra, where she originally didn't exist.

Some feel that Sumika wanted to atone for her "selfishness" in Alternative by giving everyone in Extra a fair chance at Takeru. It really disadvantages her Extra counterpart, but I can't see Alternative Sumika doing anything else that doesn't explicitly benefit her.

Ah, I see. You're right. Now that you explain it, the ending makes sense and feels much more appropriate.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Spoiler: show

I'm shocked you'd say that! Yes, Takeru was deeply in love with Sumika, but his relationship with Meiya was fantastic in Alternative, even better than how they were in Unlimited as a couple (the "noble confidant" term actually means something like "person closest to you without being a loved one") and it's clear that even though he valued his friends as equals, Meiya was so much more important to him. They understood each other exceptionally well, and it was that understanding that helped Takeru to pull the trigger.

There's also the issue of his Unlimited memories subtley influencing his decisions - the reason he hesitated to stab Yuuhi with the triazolam was because she looked like Meiya, his love from Unlimited. He misinterpreted his hesitation as a lack of resolve, when it was actually something a bit more personal and specific.

So even though he didn't love Meiya in Alternative, he was subconsciously held back by it during that critical moment.

Spoiler: show

Don't get me wrong, I agree Takeru's relationship with Meiya in Alternative was wonderful, and the final decision was a heartwrenching one. I'm just angry I got cheated out of witnessing that kind of moment for Sumika, so I'm taking it out on Meiya. Yurusu ga yoi. I also feel having the BETA take over Meiya's body was further cheating. At that point, there's really no choice but to abandon her (unless Takeru could somehow manage to summon Rule Breaker *shot*). For someone who should have no longer been afraid to stain his own hands with blood, he wasn't pressured very much to prove it. Striking a mercy blow in a helpless situation isn't the same as sentencing to death an innocent girl in the safety of a cockpit when there are still other options available.

Also, like I said, not knowing of his comrades' deaths until the end also took off too much responsibility IMO. I get the others were trying to be considerate and increase their odds of success, but I personally think that shows a lack of faith in their leader's ability to cope with the changing situation. What if it came back to bite them in the end when he experienced the trauma all at once before the crucial moment, and he suffered a heroic blue screen of death because of it? I believe they (Meiya) should've been honest and kept him fully updated so they could gauge his reaction. First check to make sure he wouldn't completely relapse, and if he does, at least those remaining can support him one by one while they still can/convince him to fight on in their place should the worst happen. Get all the emotional issues sorted out before you send humanity's best hope in, guns blazing. Once he's so deep it'd be impossible to reach him, especially if there's no one left to do so. Meiya was lucky to survive and bolster Takeru through the attack, but if she too fell prey beforehand or couldn't reach him in time - and he didn't receive any information at all - I have no doubt he'd keep waiting despite his promise or do something utterly reckless. (Suzumiya's death showed he wasn't completely over the pain after all, and needed a hand to prevent him from making a costly mistake.) Even once it became obvious they weren't coming, it'd be dangeorus if he still desperately clung to that tiny bit of hope. So much for communication and teamwork.

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

You'd have to replay the game to get everything (or ask me :p), remember I played through the MLA 1st patch like 37 times, and have gone through MLA itself in full no less than 10. That, plus talking with people to see what I missed over the past four months, gave me enough information to hit on most of your questions. If you'd asked me to describe the attack waves of the Sadogashima battle immediately after I played through it the first time, I wouldn't be able to answer you at all.

Like the Infinity games, MLA is as consistent with its logic and ideas as you're used to, perhaps even moreso. Unless something is deliberately left ambiguous, there's a direct explanation for it somewhere in the game. Often, though, this info is thrown out casually since there's so much information the game has to go through! Some of your questions were given in a lecture, either Isumi's, Marimo's, or Radhabinod's. Takeru was spacing out during Isumi's lecture, and I know I myself actually did space out during it despite how interesting (and important) it was supposed to be.

You're right I should probably replay the game in order to get the full picture, and I intend to do so at least for the extra routes. I know I eventually started skipping through most of the strategy meetings since I figured I'd get to see them in action soon anyway, and besides hardly anything goes according to plan. (Makes me sound more like Ayamine than Chizuru, huh? Well, at least in the context of dramatic novels, where obviously there wouldn't be a story otherwise. XP)

Anyway, thanks for all the explanations. I feel a lot better about most of my complaints now that the wrinkles have been smoothed out. I'm still a little miffed on a couple issues as you can see, but I'm no longer RAGING like I was last night. I just personally would've done those things a bit differently.

I still really wish this were an animé. ...And that the director would polish up the story by taking my route instead. *flees from angry devoted fans*

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by YUKI.N

I still really wish this were an animé. ...And that the director would polish up the story by taking my route instead. *flees from angry devoted fans*

I think you've just answered your own question, though. It's very difficult to adapt a multi-route visual novel to television. Many have tried and failed. Hell, even the highly acclaimed Fate / Stay Night wasn't able to translate into an excellent-quality anime. (The best part of the anime was the story premise itself, so if you'd already played the game, I can only imagine how disappointed you must have been with the anime.) A few animes in recent years have tried to tackle multi-route games by having multi-route animes -- Yosuga no Sora and Amagami SS stand out in my mind as having done this -- but I imagine it would still be pretty difficult to pull this off with Muv-Luv, mostly because Muv-Luv isn't just one game with multiple routes, it's three games with multiple routes. The best thing they could probably do would be to just pick one route -- either the most popular route or else the most canonical route -- and go with that. Act like the other routes don't even exist. It would be chaos to try and do a "route merger" the way so many other animes have tried (like FSN). Route merger, bad.