02-16-2014, 02:32 PM | #201 |
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
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So I've been searching for the answer but still can't figure it out.
What exactly is the difference between '貴方' and '君'? I tend to hear the former more in general, but when it comes to music, I pretty much only ever hear the latter. Is it a difference in formality? An individual nuance like 私/僕? |
02-16-2014, 04:54 PM | #202 | |
時の彼方へ
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About 貴方 (あなた), the standard Japanese "you": 貴方 is complicated. On the one hand, it is the standard neutral "you," neither endearing nor degrading. On the other hand, the word has taken on divergent usage in modern Japanese as it tends to be used most often:
Some examples following this pattern where you will hear 貴方 used include (and are not limited to):
Use of 貴方 outside of its use as a term of endearment can often color a person or character as being stern. It is an incredibly direct term -- or rather, use of the second person period is incredibly direct to most Japanese. This is why you instead see native Japanese speakers make prolific use of the third person: it is common to refer to one another by name where in English we would use "you." For example, "I'll give Sekine my answer tonight" while talking to Sekine rather than "I'll give you my answer tonight." Now to explain the latter usage of 貴方: as a term of endearment between spouses or lovers. The translation you'll often find for this in English is "Dear" or "darling", as in "Yes, Dear!" and "Oh, darling!" But it quite literally means you! It is the dictionary, basic form of the second person pronoun. So how did it wind up in this position? Well, this is largely personal specualtion, but: first, think back to what I explained about using 貴方 having historically fallen out of usage as a neutral term for respect; then, consider that, in a perverse sense, terms which you are not allowed to use with anyone else obtain a special intimacy when used with a significant other. The idea is likely something like this, operating almost entirely at the level of the cultural subconscious: "This term, because I am told I cannot use it, obtains a sort of specialness; and my wife/lover is a very special person to me; therefore, this is a term that I can use with her to signify to her, 'You are a special person. You are someone I feel comfortable using this term around.'" It is as though the standard "you" somehow became a taboo "you" ... and thus by virtue of its taboo status became a special "you" which you save only for that very special someone. It bears reiterating that this is a personal theory substantiated by a mix of college lectures and personal exposure. Do please keep that in mind. You may see 貴女 from time to time. This is read あなた, the same as 貴方, but indicates a female addressee. A quick corollary: 貴様 (きさま): I think I've explained in this thread once before the inverse scenario with 貴様, where an incredibly polite second person pronoun wound up becoming one of the most disrespectful labels you can use in modern Japanese. The phenomenon at work there is different though (I suspect) related. With 貴様, what we have is similar to English "pal" / "buddy" / "chum". When you call somebody your pal / buddy / chum and they're clearly not your friend, it's obvious you're being condescending towards them and are angry towards them. "Look, pal ... " has a very different feel than "Jamie is my bestest pal in the whole wide world. " I think something similar happened with 貴様 where this most polite of second person pronouns became appropriated for sarcastic usage -- and they say Japanese lacks sarcasm! -- and gradually morphed into an insult. In the same sense that 貴方 can be used legitimately (see above discussion), so too can 貴様 still be used per its original meaning. However, this is very rare and is almost exclusively relegated to archaic speech. A relatively recent prominent example in anime is Rider's use of the term in Fate/Zero when addressing his master Waver. About 君 (きみ), a non-standard "you": 君 is an incredibly common word, so to be clear, when I say "non-standard" I mean only that it is not the dictionary definition, the neutral case (if you will) for English "you." That would be 貴方, previously discussed. What then is 君? 君 is generally used:
In the case of social equals using it, it is a touch presumptuous to use 君 with a stranger. However, whereas using 貴方 with a stranger indicates no desire on your part to initiate a relationship with that person and can be seen as being a bit more cold and stern, 君 is the sort of second person pronoun that (imo) invites the other party to form a relationship with you. You'll often find young people using this term when they meet someone for the first time. Girls interested in guys, for example, or guys interested in girls. If you look at a lot of school-based anime, for example, you'll find loads of cases where Character 1 used 君 to address Character 2 when they first met and didn't know one another's names. Again, we have the paradox of rudeness at play: "By using 君 to address you, I am displaying familiarity; it is rude to display familiarity towards people you do not know, and therefore we're not to use 君; except that by choosing to use 君 with you, I am exposing myself to you that I would not mind becoming familiar with you; thus, you can take it as a sign of good will, not hostility or disrespect." Japanese can be strange like this. A lot of layers, sort of like appending a bunch of anti- or non- prefixes in front of ideas rather than words. ^^; So what about when the social equals already know one another? There there's practically no barrier at all to using 君 ... except that when you already know somebody, chances are good that you're either going to a) start calling them by their name or else b) graduate to using other personal pronouns for them. Remember: the Japanese tend to be much more comfortable using the 3rd person to refer to addressees than the 2nd person. This is why I wouldn't be surprised to see an evolution like this: 君 --> 神尾さん --> 神尾くん --> 悟くん --> 悟 In the above example, we have a young man named Kamio Satoru, and we have a girl who addresses him:
About 君 (くん) as an honorific: It's worth pointing out that 君 isn't just read as きみ, a personal pronoun, but can also be read as くん when it appears at the end of names. You likely have already encountered the くん honorific before. Well, here it is again. So you could write 神尾くん ... or you could write 神尾君. The latter looks less authentic to me as most native speakers will opt to use hiragana for most of the honorifics common in modern speech, but name+君 not only is valid but is (apparently! ) the preferred spelling by Windows IME. In the same sense that many young men and women will use 君 in a non-disrespectful fashion when addressing someone they have only just met, you will find many girls who will address a boy with the くん suffix, skipping over the さん suffix entirely. Often times, this will be done when the girl either a) wants to become friends or b) already considers herself his friend. By bypassing さん, the speaker can avoid the minor drama that many young people face when graduating an acquaintance from さん status to くん status. Some girls agonize over whether to keep addressing a boy they like with さん (giving him the wrong impression that they are not interested) or to switch to using くん (which can be an embarrassing broadcast to him that she wants to take their relationship to the next level). Alternatively, some girls may feel it is unkind to continue to use さん with a boy they value as a friend yet they worry that by shifting from using さん to using くん he could mistake that for romantic interest. I believe (though this is just my personal theory) that some girls may opt to jump straight to くん for this very reason. Sure, it may be a bit presumptuous to use くん for him ... but when くん is all you've ever used for him, there's no way for him to tell how you feel about him based on what you call him. As with きみ, くん can be used to signify endearment and it can also be used (and is commonly used!) by social superiors when addressing social inferiors. For example, bosses at the workplace will often refer to their subordinates with くん rather than さん as the latter would be more like placing them on even footing while the former clearly establishes who is the social superior in this relationship.
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02-17-2014, 11:30 PM | #203 |
プラスチック♡ラブ
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There's kanji for anata?
Also for what it's worth my current textbook (とびら) uses the kanji for くん exclusively and never writes it in kana, which confused me quite a lot. But of course my book has some questionable uses of kanji, at least from a colloquial perspective. |
02-18-2014, 12:41 AM | #204 | |
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Jim Breen indicates that 貴方 is normally written in kana rather than kanji, but don't mistake this for some run of the mill ateji. I feel like I see あなた written in kanji rather than kana at a ratio of roughly 55:45, with the vast majority of my exposure being manga. Taking myself outside of my own gut feelings and trying to approach the problem purely objectively, I'd be willing to invert that ratio but I don't think I'd be willing to deviate much further than 35:65. The kanji forms of 貴方 are quite common. Well, the gender-specific 貴女 is understandably much less common than the gender-neutral 貴方, but it's common enough that I would recommend recognizing it. (It's really not that hard: it's the same as 貴方 but with the gender-neutral 方 replaced with good ol' 女.)
I wanted to provide some samples from comics I read today, but after quickly skimming over two hundred pages of one author's work, I grew bored and gave up -- not one single use of the second person. Closest I got was several different characters using 皆さん to address a group of people. Not one single あなた, 貴方, 君, nor お前. It really does just go to show you how damn rare the second person is compared with the first and third persons. Quote:
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02-18-2014, 06:59 PM | #205 | |
我が名は勇者王!
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In One Piece there is a monster called a "kashigami". It's a giant snake, basically, and "kashigami" is supposed to be more of a description-name. The only Japanese provided is カシ神.
However, the trivia is quite cryptic: Quote:
So what is "kashi", written in kana, in this context? Is the trivia more misinformative than FYI?
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02-18-2014, 07:14 PM | #206 |
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Your guess is as good as mine, I'm afraid. I'm not familiar with any snake-related words pronounced かし nor am I familiar with any words pronounced かし that have meanings which might tie into snakes. The closest I could offer you is 下肢 as "lower limbs" since we know that snakes are legless creatures and thus maybe the villagers would have named her "The Legless One" and somehow over time that morphed to "The Legged One". But that seems like quite a stretch. None of the readings for the common word for snake, 蛇, include ka or shi either. I wondered if maybe it was a neologism, like "snake death god" or something, but the only legitimate readings for 蛇 appear to be じゃ, だ, い, や, へび of course, and (in given names) あぶ and み. No か. No し.
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02-26-2014, 10:07 PM | #207 |
我が名は勇者王!
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It's time to turbolearn Japanese! #poweroverwhelming
I was reading my book. It said adjective nouns end in -i or -na. Gave the example of "akai". Now, I only know it as "aka". But the book didn't say the -i or -na words were modified nouns to sound like adjectives (unlike adding -ka at the end of a sentence to designate a question) so I'm curious if those words were always adjectives, and the noun appeared over time by dropping the -i in sentences. Additionally, something I'm curious about...I named my VN "Jinsei wa Hikikomogomo". I always thought "wa" meant "is" i.e. is a conjugate of "to be". Nuh-uh, that's -DESU. So I don't get it, is the -desu implied whenever -wa is used or something, and just dropped due to sound? Cause all the translators don't even bother with -desu and that's all I be seeing. I am so high right now.
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02-27-2014, 12:01 AM | #208 | ||
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Quote:
With な adjectives, on the other hand, I think it's pretty evident that they are an extension of pre-existing nouns. I'm not sure if this is the case for all な adjectives (I wouldn't be surprised if there are some exceptions), and many appear almost exclusively in their な adjectival forms (e.g. 静か[な] and 意外[な]), but the vast majority of cases strike me as having evolved from nouns. Examples include 元気な "energetic; spirited" (from 元気 vigor, spirit, vitality), 純情な "pure-hearted; self-sacrificingly devoted" (from 純情 "pure heart; self-sacrificing devotion") and 完全な "complete" (from 完全 "completeness"). This list could honestly go on for a very long time. Both could, actually. There are many な adjectives which clearly have noun heritage but simply dropping the な and using the root as a noun is not commonly done, but there are also many, many nouns still in use not listed here which are turned into な adjectives simply by adding な onto the end. Note that many neologized adjectives will take な. For example, when we watched 桜荘のペットな彼女, the word ペット "pet" was morphed into a な-adjective, becoming "pet-ey" or "pettish", i.e. "of a pet, like a pet, pet-like." Note that if a noun or phrase lacks a corresponding な adjectival form, the convention is to turn it into a noun modifier using の. For example, "a once-in-a-lifetime chance" would be 一生に一度のチャンス (with 一生一度 describing チャンス and linked by の). For a simpler example, "Mom's home cooking" would be 母さんの手料理 (with 母さん modifying 手料理). Quote:
The title of your visual novel follows the sentence structure of N1 は N2 [implied です], where N1 is the topic, indicated by は, and N2 is (in the case of this very simple sentence) the predicate. The Japanese distinguish between topics and subjects, so it's important to not equate the two. Topics are marked by は. Subjects are marked by が. (Both of these particles serve additional roles in Japanese grammar, so be mindful of that.) To give examples which should make the distinction clear ...
Note that in the pattern N1 は N2 です, as used in your title, the topic often assumes the unstated role of subject. For example, the very ordinary sentence 私は学生です。 translates to English as "I am a student," where "I" would be the subject and "am a student" the predicate. A more literal translation might offer "Me, {I} am a student," indicating the marked role of 私 as topic and a possible implied redundant role of 私 as subject. To give another example, the sentence 彼女の欲しいものは数えられないほど多い。 translates to "The things she desires are too many to count," where 彼女の欲しいもの is the topic even though in English it comes out as the subject. Remember WataMote from last summer? The title, 私がモテないのはどう考えてもお前らが悪い!, works as follows:
For more information on this subject, I really have to stress checking out what that textbook of yours has to say!
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02-27-2014, 10:40 AM | #211 | |
時の彼方へ
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We each learn differently; some people are faster than others at different legs of the race. But, provided one has the capacity and the drive for second-language acquisition, we should all be capable of achieving fluency in the end. Some people pick up syntax very quickly. Some people are fast learners with kanji. Some people have remarkable capacity for remembering vocabulary heard and used rarely. Everyone's got different talents. Also, just as many people speak English but cannot teach it / explain its rules to others accurately or scholastically, so too can't every speaker of Japanese teach Japanese. In other words, someone's ability to teach shouldn't be confused for someone's fluency.
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02-28-2014, 06:05 AM | #212 |
Droppin' CDs and beats
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A question, here, from me? What a miracle! :o
So I've read this small article about kendo, when something caught my eye: I think there's something wrong with their translation of "immovable mind", "fudoushin or 不動心". Now I know nothing about kanji, but I do know that in hiragana, "fu" is 心... and somehow the "fu" in their romanji translation is at the beginning of the word, while in their Japanese translation 心 is at the end of the word! So, is that a translation mistake, or is it something I missed in translation, like some rule I haven't learned yet? |
02-28-2014, 06:38 AM | #213 | |
ROASTY ROASTY
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Fu dou shin 不動心 Seems right. Fu and Dou are perfectly fine, as you've noticed. Shin is one of the readings for Kokoro, among many other readings. Have you heard of Touhou 13.5: Hopeless Masquerade? Uses the same reading in its Japanese title: Shinkirou. So no, there is no mistake in the translation. |
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02-28-2014, 07:14 AM | #214 |
Droppin' CDs and beats
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Well although your answer confused me more than anyhing at first (and I don't know anything about Touhou), it still led me to a proper answer: what really happened is I mixed up with the previously unknown and never seen kanji "shin" (心), with the closest thing I know, the hiragana "fu" (ふ) ^^; They look similar in form, but putting them side by side really make the differences stand out! Derp. Well at least I know now there's something similar, and I should make the difference between the two.
Thanks for the (indirect) help! ^^ |
02-28-2014, 08:21 AM | #215 | |
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02-28-2014, 11:15 AM | #216 |
Droppin' CDs and beats
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Haha, it's fine ^^ I guess you misread what I asked for, and didn't notice that with what I said (that I knew absolutely nothing about kanji) someone like you could've clicked what went wrong with my horrible Japanese reading skills ^^;
Well, at least things got cleared up, and I've learned my first kanji character/word and make the difference between it and the oddly similar-looking hiragana! \o/ |
02-28-2014, 05:06 PM | #217 |
我が名は勇者王!
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Are "liver" and "river" pronounced the same in katakana, リバー?
I ask because there are some exceptions to translations. Punch (the strike) and punch (the drink) are pronounced the same in English, but for some reason in Japanese they're パンチ and ポンチ (if you don't believe the latter, look up フルーツポンチ. My dictionaries are down, so I can't confirm it, but if not true (I suspect liver might be "reba") I'll be a sad panda.
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02-28-2014, 05:10 PM | #218 | |
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Quote:
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03-02-2014, 12:14 AM | #219 |
我が名は勇者王!
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This sound right?:
Issensei no Isshou 一千世の一生 It's supposed to be "One Thousand Lifetimes".
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03-02-2014, 12:31 AM | #220 |
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If we're to read 一千世 as one thousand lifetimes (given 一世 as a lifetime; I'm not sure if it can still work that way when written as 千世 or 一千世 to mean "one thousand lifetimes"), then I would read your phrase as "the lifetime of one thousand lifetimes." It also feels weird to me that you're mixing different ways to say lifetime ... like, to use the English analog, "the night of a thousand nights" sounds more pleasing to me than "the night of a thousand evenings" does.
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03-02-2014, 10:50 AM | #221 |
我が名は勇者王!
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How about just 万生 (mansei) then? I've upgraded it to 10,000 though.
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03-02-2014, 11:01 AM | #222 |
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You're neologizing at a rate that your questions can only be reliably answered by a native speaker or someone with native speaker-level fluency. For instance, I can tell you that 万世 already has a meaning ("all ages; eternity") but I can't tell you whether this impacts 万生 or not. I also would think that 万生 would be read manshou given 一生 is isshou but since neither shows up in a dictionary and "lives; lifetimes" is hardly a counter I encounter frequently, I can't really tell you for certain that what you're doing is normal, correct but abnormal, or incorrect.
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03-02-2014, 02:59 PM | #223 |
我が名は勇者王!
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I'll see what I can come up with. Intuitively, it should work I found this site which chronicles different counters, and -sei appears several times when connected to "generation". Of course it also means life in general, so on face value it makes sense.
Here's another one that's mostly for interest. I've been banging my head of trying to read the MTG card Power Sink. Sink, Spell Blast, Counterspell, Mana Short, and other Blue Magic interrupts were what got me started in MTG since my friend in 4th grade bought a fudgeton of commons, not really thinking about what to get, on my behalf and ended up getting nothing but counterspells and disruption cards. The concept of Power Sink was always interesting to me. Unlike with blast/spell/short, it's a metaphorical name, which I believe to be an allusion to a sink like in this version. But I couldn't read most of the Japanese, especially that second part, just the "ka", but luckily that was enough to link me to a GameFAQs guide that featured all the side-by-side translations of the card names I was looking for. Power Sink: 魔力消沈 (maryouku shochin) Then I realize that I was still reading it wrong. What I thought was カ (ka) is actually 力 (ryoku) which I know really well. But I mean...wow. That's really hard to tell apart. >_> Then again, I've had some trouble differentiating between D and b in my own hand-writing. Maybe I'm just a spaz!
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03-02-2014, 03:11 PM | #224 |
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Spoiler: all of the katakana come from kanji or kanji radicals.
You've just discovered where カ comes from. (Or thereabouts. See Wikipedia link below.) In Power Sink's name, the character on the far right isn't terribly common. But 力 is taught in Grade 1, 消 is taught early on as well as it's a component of terribly common words like "to turn off the lights" and "to put out a fire", and 魔 JSL students tend to pick up pretty early since of course it shows up in so many different manga, anime, or books that have fantasy elements to them. Some other examples that come to mind ...
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03-20-2014, 04:53 PM | #225 |
我が名は勇者王!
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There's an attack in Ranma 1/2 called 火中天津甘栗拳. I can read the characters individually, but without kana I don't know how I'm supposed to pronounce it. I downloaded the original chapter but it isn't helping! I would love some help in this regard -
The big problem is for 火. Starting a word, it can be read as カ, コ, ひ, ほ so I don't know wtf that's supposed to be. To me it looks like フ or ラ.
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