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Old 04-04-2014, 11:43 PM   #26
Stealthy
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The fear here is that Eich's anti-same sex marriage views are a sign of him being bigoted towards homosexuals, and thus that he would create a discriminatory environment towards homosexuals in his company. The objection is similar as to if he was found out to be a complete racist. People would say that he is unfit to lead a company out of fear that his personal views would create a discriminatory environment.

If this were the case, and Eich was known to be a bigot beyond being against Same Sex Marriage in 2008, and having actual homophobic or anti-homosexual leanings, then there would be a decent case that he would create an environment of inequality and discrimination based on characteristics that are not related to them doing their job. And thus, yeah, Eich would need to be tossed out.

Somehow, I don't think this was the case. I dunno. Gut feeling. Maybe he's still not a fan of same sex marriage, but maybe he's one of a good number of Americans who simply objects to the use of the word marriage, and has nothing against homosexual peoples. Don't vote him into public office, sure, but as CEO of a company if he's going to treat his workers fairly regardless of their sexual orientation and regardless of his private views on the subject, then so be it. Demanding that he step down because this is a step too far if his views are not translating into malicious action towards his workers.

I think the gun was jumped way too early on this. Guy is part of what, at the time, was a majority of Americans, made a moderate contribution towards that end, and has now been tossed out after 11 days because people provoked rage before learning all the facts. Maybe he, like many Americans, changed his mind. Maybe he prefers civil union as a term. Support for Same Sex marriage only became the majority opinion (I believe) 2 years ago. I mean, Maine had a ballot initiative on the issue one year and it failed, had one on the next and it succeeded.

The assumption that somebody who was against Gay Marriage six years ago is a definite bigot today is a poor one, and doesn't reflect well on the cause.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:45 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
That dichotomy already exists with pretty much everything media or commercial. A lot of Hollywood actors/actresses for example are what most people would consider vile - vain, petty, egotistic, often hateful and rude. Someone like Tom Cruise - not only a nutcase because of Scientology, but a dangerous and rich one - is far more common than the saintly Red Skelton of olden times.

To me, it seems like Anti-Semitism and Anti-Homosexuality - two viewpoints against a lot of powerful people in Hollywood - irritate the powerful enough to exercise that power. Yeah, there are a lot of Jews in Hollywood. But we don't really know how powerful they are until they crucify a Mel Gibson. Homophobes like OSC who Loki mentioned better suppress their beliefs if they ever want to work in motion pictures again.
A friend of mine just reminded me that he owns a cat named Ender. This friend is one of the biggest friends of the LGBT community I know. He's straight, but he has so, so many gay, lesbian, bi, and transgendered friends. Actively participates in their community. Awesome guy. Loves Ender's Game.

This made me realize something that for some reason I hadn't realized the other day when last you brought this up. Shakespeare, Milton, Chaucer, Tolkien, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Dumas, Verne, Hugo, Natsume, Dazai, Twain, Hemingway, Steinbeck, Faulkner, the list goes on: how many of these classic authors the works of whom LGBT readers the world over adore ... how many of these authors would have been ardently opposed to homosexual lifestyles and privileges / social rights? How many believed homosexuality an illness? How many believed it a sin? I imagine the percentage is not insignificant. Surely not 100%, but perhaps 50? 75? 30? A significant portion, I imagine. Yet we do not condemn the writings of these great authors simply because of their prejudices. So why condemn Ender's Game over Card's?
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:23 PM   #28
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I'm not so sure that people's opinion of Ender's Game is tainted by OSC's attitude - if you took a hater of OSC and asked them how they felt about the novel, I doubt many would say the self-incriminating "it sucks because OSC is a homophobe". It's more like their hate/disgust is so overpowering they can't read it in good conscience knowing his attitudes. Although I have an inkling that him being LDS with all of that religion's loaded associations also plays into it. Which is interesting, because how do they handle reading Mein Kampf which was authored by Hitler himself?

Since this attitude carries along into sports - for example, there's a hitter in the Giants' minor league system who is widely reviled because he's a murderer - I feel like the end result is how much a person personally invests/enjoys something. The attitude of the author is usually secondary, but for people who are invested into something more than the average person, the author's life becomes a secondary facet of interest. If you like a work, you grow interested in the author/performer, and want to see that author/performer again.

That's really what bugs me about the Mozilla thing. My impression of all the progressive freeware projects is that they're run by open-minded, progressive people, because the very nature of the project is anathema to what conservatives would value. I can totally understand how, in say a service-based industry, how someone expressing racist or homophobic attitudes publicly would hurt customer satisfaction. But in this case, the inability to look past attitude told me either Eich had hated political enemies who deliberately leaked this info to oust him from office (which Rangeet confirmed) or the tweeters were that petty to want to compromise Mozilla's mission by getting him to resign. Either route doesn't paint a flattering picture of how the company handled the scandal.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:47 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Talon87
So why condemn Ender's Game over Card's?
Ender's Game itself doesn't have anything anti-homosexual about it. It's not even an issue in the book. But, Orson Scott Card has written essays in magazines in the 90s and 2000s about his views and joined an organization against homosexual marriage. He's been very public about it.

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Which is interesting, because how do they handle reading Mein Kampf which was authored by Hitler himself?
I actually do have a friend who majored in German history and wanted to read Mein Kampf, but hasn't had the courage to buy it in fear of any criticisms he might receive from anyone who might find him with the book.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:54 PM   #30
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Ender's Game itself doesn't have anything anti-homosexual about it. It's not even an issue in the book. But, Orson Scott Card has written essays in magazines in the 90s and 2000s about his views and joined an organization against homosexual marriage. He's been very public about it.
This is my point though: you can be against Orson Scott Card the man without needing to be against Ender's Game the novel. I know people have a hard time doing this. Self included! I know that when we find out that our favorite songs / films / books were produced by terrible people it tends to ruin them for us forever. But it shouldn't. It really, really shouldn't. If you think about the vast majority of cinema and literature, it was probably created by people you find not just wrong but morally abhorrent in at least one way. Perhaps Michelangelo was an anti-Semite. Perhaps Alan Moore is racist against people of Indian descent. Perhaps Bram Stoker poisoned his first wife. I'm making these up, but the point is that even if these were true, it wouldn't change whatever innate beauty there is in their respective masterpieces. Or if it does, it shouldn't.

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I actually do have a friend who majored in German history and wanted to read Mein Kampf, but hasn't had the courage to buy it in fear of any criticisms he might receive from anyone who might find him with the book.
New York City. Plentiful public libraries. Find the book without checking it out. Read it in the library. Put the book back when done for that particular session. Rinse and repeat until completion.
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:50 PM   #31
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I've read a bit of Mein Kampf. Some interesting stuff, that is. Mad, but interesting.

I've not really read OSC's novels, but I've heard more damning than praise about them, with nothing to do with his views on homosexuality. I try to judge books and movies on their own merits, not their writer/directer/producer/whatever's. Sure, it's not a perfect sentiment, there will always be some trend towards bias, but I try to go into it as neutral as possible.
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:01 PM   #32
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People like to know where their money is going and not supporting something they're against. So I wouldn't personally donate to an anti-homosexual campaign. But if I buy Ender's Game, what if that $10 from purchasing his book goes into his next check to that very campaign I'm against. I am then indirectly supporting something I'm against.

Is it fair? No. Ender's Game is still the same work regardless of people's view of OSC, but this will always linger in people's minds.

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Yeah that's less likely to happen. Not only does he work during the hours which a Library is open, there's even more people who would likely see him holding that book and make false assumptions about him for reading it.
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Old 04-05-2014, 06:18 PM   #33
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As long as he's not blonde haired and blue eyed, it's all good!
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Old 04-05-2014, 07:40 PM   #34
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:22 AM   #35
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[Eich] co-founded the mozilla.org project in 1998 and was named CTO of the Mountain View-based nonprofit in 2005. Eich is the creator of JavaScript.
Somehow I missed this originally. One of my friends brought it up over lunch a couple of days ago. Only just now remembered to mention it here.

The way the news story is typically presented, people make it sound like the CEO was "just some business guy" who newly became CEO and could easily be tossed aside like a rag. While it is true that he had only recently been made CEO ... Mr. Eich was apparently one of the company's co-founders. He is, in a very real sense, to Mozilla what Bill Gates would be to Microsoft or Steve Jobs would be to Apple. He was not just "some guy" they brought in from outside. He was not just some business school graduate out of Yale or Harvard. He was batting for Team Mozilla since before anyone but his fellow co-founders even knew what Mozilla was.

What's more, this man invented JavaScript. Let that sink in for a second. Love it or hate it, JavaScript is one of the most prolific elements of life on the Internet -- and this man was its inventor.

None of this excuses his personal views which some may find offensive. But it sure does illustrate what gross overkill it was for the social justice warriors to force Mozilla's hand and force this man to resign from his position as CEO. It also illustrates why he was so willing to take one for the team. Mozilla is more than a team to him: it is his child. And it has been a fixture of his life for the past 30 years.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:04 AM   #36
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I hate BuzzFeed and I also really hate the alarmist/guilt-tripping tone of this article but I think it's worth it to also consider another side to the story.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:12 AM   #37
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That article is designed to guilt trip people with a list of horrible things that have absolutely nothing to do with Eich, nor are helped or averted or lessened in any way by forcing him out of his job. Yes, the article author has listed a bunch of terrible things. And if anyone can explain to me how what they've done to Eich effects any of what they've listed in any way, shape or form, I'll change my tune entirely and fully support the anti-Eich witch hunt.

My sense of "ugh do I have to share the pro-gay rights stand with these people" grows.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:14 AM   #38
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Yeah, it bothers me too, but I think it's worth also talking about how people continue to use things like this to make the LGBT community out as some big conspiracy group that is out to destroy society and make everyone into PC monsters.

Be careful that you don't fall into the trap on the other end of the spectrum either.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:17 AM   #39
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The obvious answer is if you want people to stop being able to make the LGBT community out like that, stop members of the pro-LGBT community acting like it. People are holding up these accusations because that's exactly what's happened here. The only inaccuracy is attributing the actions of a few to everyone, and even that's not totally inaccurate because a lot of the wider community is making themselves partly culplable by not denouncing it. It's something seen in a lot of good causes - some people have to take it too far, and their actions damage the image of the cause because they act exactly like their opponents want to portray them as being. On top of screwing this guy of out a job, everyone involved in this fiasco has actively harmed the cause and achieved nothing positive. This needs to be the sort of thing that pro-LGBT groups quickly and publically disown whenever it happens if they want to get anywhere.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:24 AM   #40
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I'm struggling to see how the article presents "another side to the story", to the story being debated in this thread. Because I see it as largely irrelevant. Not unimportant. Irrelevant. Because, if we try to force its relevance to the story of Eich's forced resignation from Mozilla, then it would seem to play out like this: "Look, bud. I'm sorry you feel bullied by the gay community. But I feel scared for my life by the homophobic community. So I win. Yeah, losing your job sucks. But at least none of us tried to murder you." Is that really the relevance we want here? I don't think so. It's not in the spirit of the author's article. And it's not really a valid argument argument either. Saying "your injustice doesn't matter because I have a greater injustice over here" isn't really a valid counterpoint to the argument "I suffered an injustice and I should not have."

Where I do see the anecdote's relevance -- and hence why the author brought it up -- is in the discussion he's having in his article about a "gay mafia," i.e. a gay social justice lynch mob that will end your career if you step out of line with LGBT ideals. His whole point is, "Even if we had a gay mafia, who is afraid of it? Clearly no one. Because we don't go around trying to murder people the way we have people in other communities going around trying to murder us. You think you know fear? Try living in our shoes for a day." In the context of such a discussion, his anecdote is hugely relevant. But in the context of the Mozilla story, I'm not really seeing the relevance. Yes, people have said that the social justice warriors of the LGBT community played a part in the Mozilla CEO's resignation. But what relevance to that does one man's attempt on his life have? Does his personal experience in any way disprove that the Tumblr brigade was at it again? Not reaaaaaally ...

Worse still, and I don't mean to downplay the author's terrible experience, but at the end of the day it is "only" a personal anecdote. It would not be any more correct of him to make the sweeping generalization that homophobes are a murdersome bunch than it would be for straight people to make the sweeping generalization that gays are petty, vindictive, and petulant based on experiences with two or three members of the gay community. The author of the article may have encountered a man who is representative of the homophobic community in Arizona ... or, more likely, he may have encountered a man who was a perfect storm of bigotry and malice. Most would-be murderers don't have it out for gays. Most homophobes don't have murderous tendencies. It takes a rare combination of homophobia and homicidal intent to get a man like the one described in the anecdote. You could combine homicidal intent with just about any social phobia and get a similarly disgusting character: racism and homicide, gender and homicide, religion and homicide, politics and homicide, etc.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:27 PM   #41
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Yeah, it bothers me too, but I think it's worth also talking about how people continue to use things like this to make the LGBT community out as some big conspiracy group that is out to destroy society and make everyone into PC monsters.

Be careful that you don't fall into the trap on the other end of the spectrum either.
I'm pretty careful with that distinction. It's become pretty common for degenerates to cite some connection to a historically marginalized group of people and use it as a bullying tool. Like someone saying "Jews are greedy, stupid and untrustworthy. Oh btw I'm Jewish bro".

The problem is, not everyone sees things quite that clearly. If one and a gay person get over a blog fight, it's really easy for ordinary people to think the non-gay person is motivated by homophobia, even if the content of his arguments have no reference to it.
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Old 04-08-2014, 06:17 PM   #42
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Perhaps I should have quoted part of it before posting it. Let me do that now.

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“I think there is a gay mafia,” said Bill Maher on Friday during an online segment of his HBO show Real Time. The topic at hand was the resignation of Mozilla’s new CEO, Brendan Eich, in response to the renewed controversy over a $1,000 donation he made in support of California’s Prop 8 in 2008. “I think if you cross them, you do get whacked. You really do,” Maher added during a segment with five presumably straight guests, each of them laughing and nodding in agreement.

[...] The same day Glenn Beck ranted during his radio broadcast that LGBT activists are “becoming a terrorist organization” that just wants to “keep everyone in fear.”

Last December, when A&E temporarily suspended Duck Dynasty star Phil Robertson after he made rambling, pointedly anti-gay comments in a GQ interview, Sarah Palin tweeted a photo of herself with the Duck Dynasty cast with the caption, “Those intolerants hatin’ and taking on the Duck Dynasty patriarch [Robertson] for voicing his personal opinion are taking on all of us.”

In February, Alec Baldwin opened a so-called farewell to public life with the sentence: “I flew to Hawaii recently to shoot a film, fresh on the heels of being labeled a homophobic bigot by Andrew Sullivan, Anderson Cooper, and others in the Gay Department of Justice.” The incident in question involved the actor calling a paparazzi photographer a “cock-sucking faggot.”
This is the kind of thing I think it's worth being aware of. Of course, it's a shame that the author of the article took this opportunity to guilt/enrage readers over the tragedy that occurs to LGBT people (which might I add is pretty disrespectful), but the summary of attitudes that are only acting against us is what is dangerous.

I think what I was trying to get from posting this article is to be wary of falling into traps, and this kind of news story is one that can be easily used to discredit LGBT people as a whole. The author's argument is poorly written and a clear guilt trip, but I think that there's been little credence lent to why there is such an outrage around this - not because of the largely irrelevant atrocities that are committed against LGBT people, but this attitude that there's this gay boogie monster under everyone's beds looking to throw them out of house and home for being too PC. It's the kind of thing that leads to homophobia somewhere down the road, or at the very least a bias towards these people, which is the exact thing I don't want to see happen.

Is it the fault of the LGBT community? Sure, but not every LGBT person is represented by them. However, the media (and a lot of people) have a tendency to assume that every LGBT person is lock-step in their beliefs. That's why I think it's important to see how ridiculous the other extreme can be.


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The obvious answer is if you want people to stop being able to make the LGBT community out like that, stop members of the pro-LGBT community acting like it. People are holding up these accusations because that's exactly what's happened here. The only inaccuracy is attributing the actions of a few to everyone, and even that's not totally inaccurate because a lot of the wider community is making themselves partly culplable by not denouncing it. It's something seen in a lot of good causes - some people have to take it too far, and their actions damage the image of the cause because they act exactly like their opponents want to portray them as being. On top of screwing this guy of out a job, everyone involved in this fiasco has actively harmed the cause and achieved nothing positive. This needs to be the sort of thing that pro-LGBT groups quickly and publically disown whenever it happens if they want to get anywhere.
Even if I agree, I don't see that happening any time soon. Unfortunately, the Social Justice Cyclone that has been stirring over the past few years has snatched up a good deal of the vocal and active members of the LGBT community. That's not to say they've all gone radical, but there's definitely a picture that's starting to develop where only the radicals are the ones with the microphone. It's unfair and it makes us look bad, but the trend is starting to pick up as more and more outspoken SJWs begin to fill public spaces and overrun the conversation with social justice related issues.

Take my school's LGBT club, for instance. When I started out as a Freshman, the kinds of programs they held mostly dealt with handling day-to-day life as an LGBT individual, and educating others about what it means to fall under this umbrella. Overall, it was something that most LGBT people could relate to. I thought it was nice for my first semester, but eventually left because I didn't really fit in (though that's not entirely relevant). I watched the activity of the group over time. Slowly, it began to be much less about LGBT issues or life and much more about Social Justice. Within the last year especially, they've had meetings on Privilege, Intersectional Feminism, and Racial Issues. All well and good... except this is a club that is meant to be a safe space and meeting space for LGBT people, not a social justice soap box. They also jumped on top of some of the more questionable race-related protests, something that is perhaps tangentially related to LGBT people.

There's been this overall trend towards being hyperaware of social justice in the LGBT community, and it's beginning to turn it into a gathering place for radicals. And I really don't see that trend stopping.
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Old 05-01-2014, 02:58 PM   #43
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Dragging the convo back a few steps here:

I'm an enthusiastic fan of OSC's writing. ENTHUSIASTIC. He's an amazing writer. Ender's Game and its progeny are definitely going down in history as sci-fi classics alongside stuff like Starship Troopers and I, Robot. It has a powerful message, and not a powerful religious message or a powerful political message. I could talk about those books for days, and all the subtle unpredictability of them. The man does aliens perfectly, he does his research on the science (while it's not 100% accurate, it's definitely not idealistic which is a refreshing break from (most of) Star Wars and Star Trek where a great deal of "aliens" are humans dressed up in disguises.

It gets a little spacey near the end with talk of souls and stuff, but the thing you have to understand about Orson Scott Card is that yes, his religious and political ideas enter his writing. They enter it right alongside characters who are Arabic, and Catholic, and atheist, and "pagan," and Buddhist, and alien. There are some strong anti-religious ideas in books like Treason and Red Prophet. I'd imagine that made him slightly less popular amongst the whitewashed Mormon crowd, when he started talking about the Native Americans and Africans as spiritually in tune with the environment, and all about how the white man was coming into the New World with his tools and destroying it and making it more artificial. White Americans typically don't like to think about Wounded Knee, the Ghost Dance, and slavery.

So don't be anti-OSC, because the man writes beautifully and from a variety of perspectives. There's nothing wrong with supporting his work just because he is against homosexuality, because it's just that good.

With the swing his writing took in Empire/sequel, though, I doubt we'll ever see that level of writing again from him, which is sad because I really enjoyed how well he did dialogue and how varied and balanced his style was. I predict he's going to write about a gay character soon enough, and it's not going to be a fair and balanced portrayal. But we'll see. Love his writing to death, wish the guy would give a good throwback to stuff like Ender's Game, Seventh Son (that's the native american one), and Treason.
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Old 05-02-2014, 10:44 PM   #44
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Shuckle I don't think this is the right thread.
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Old 05-03-2014, 10:05 AM   #45
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It is the right thread. We're talking about how the personal opinions of authors and owners affects how they run a company and how they write. I am saying that they generally don't, whereas it is being asserted that OSC's personal beliefs are a reason not to buy/read his books.

At this point we're just closing up the discussion since most of us agree on everything - any disagreements would be minor points and matters of taste/ignorance, such as me not knowing that the guy in question was one of the founders of Mozilla.
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Old 05-03-2014, 04:28 PM   #46
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Ehhhh.... none of us said we were boycotting OSC for his views so I'm not sure why you're so enthusiastically pushing for us to not judge his works by his character.
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Old 05-20-2014, 07:38 AM   #47
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Mostly I just like his books.
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