Clannad

[big bad birtha]

.................

Clannad 10- =O The start of a new arc, and I found this to be pretty entertaining. It seemed a little uneventful and pointless, but still very sweet (X3 at Kotomi hugging Tomoyo.) Anyway, this is Kotomi's arc. Honestly, I like her. I'm not sure how her path will go, but I look forward to seeing what it entails.

I am loading up episode 22 of Higurashi. After that, I will hit Minami-ke 9.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by big bad birtha

Clannad 9- ;_; Lame insert song at the end aside, this was a very sweet and touching episode. This is the kind of episode I expect from Clannad. Sure, someone is probably pissed at the whole route since it is supernatural, but that doesn't take away the fact that it was a great episode. Sure, it phails compared to Makoto's arc, but I kind of expected that.

I read a blog post that made a negative comment about that episode, which was summarily swamped by length philosophical discussions about why it was great. Which does raise an eyebrow. >_>

Do tell me about it; from what I've read, there are numerous similarities with Ayu...?

[big bad birtha]

Aah. I see you dropped it. No surprise. It leaves less for me to have to argue about in the end

Anyway, yes. Actually, Fuko's path is almost nothing but a big fusion between Ayu's path and Kouhei (ONE). Since no-one here is even going to bother playing ONE, I don't care if I spoil anyone or not, so I will throw some ONE spoilers in my explanation below........

[Clannad spoiler]Fuko's path mainly consists of her trying to give people stars to attend her sister's wedding. However, her real body is in the hospital because she is in a coma. The her that is trying to hand out stars is a ghost of sorts. I can't really say what she really is because I haven't looked into it, but still. Well, as she lives on, people start to forget her, and less people are able to see her. After they finally go to her wedding, she finally disappears and everyone forgets her (Kouhei.)

Yea. Despite the lack of originality, it is still a touching and somewhat tear-jerking path. However, it doesn't live up to snuff when compared to other Key stories.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by big bad birtha

Aah. I see you dropped it. No surprise. It leaves less for me to have to argue about in the end

I haven't dropped it, I've just shelfed it until more come out - I can't stand the feverish madness of the fanbase on other forums, so I want to wait until everything dies down so I can enjoy the show without gnashing my teeth and tearing out my hair.

Originally Posted by big bad birtha

Yea. Despite the lack of originality, it is still a touching and somewhat tear-jerking path. However, it doesn't live up to snuff when compared to other Key stories.

Meh. From what it sounds I agree with you, but most everyone else doesn't.

Fuko's stars were carved, right?

[big bad birtha]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

I haven't dropped it, I've just shelfed it until more come out - I can't stand the feverish madness of the fanbase on other forums, so I want to wait until everything dies down so I can enjoy the show without gnashing my teeth and tearing out my hair.

Errm.....you could ignore Clannad topics. I did the same to Lucky Star, and though I didn't really enjoy it too much, but I enjoyed it much more than I would if I kept listening to the stream of stupid comments such as "Hur hur! The one thousandth Haruhi reference was hilarious." or kept looking at the lesbian Kagami/Konata fanart. Unfortunately, we will see assloads more when it actually releases >.<

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Meh. From what it sounds I agree with you, but most everyone else doesn't.

Fuko's path seriously wasn't that good. Honestly, at best, it would be on the same level as Minagi's path from Air, and her path was completely engulfed by the Summer and Air arcs (those aren't really paths).

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Fuko's stars were carved, right?

??? I don't know why that matters, but yea. Actually, her and Sunohara had a carving contest. Sunohara cut himself, while Fuko carved Keropi (Nayuki's frog plush). What takes me aback is how everyone got their hands on so much wood =O

[Doppleganger]

It's hard to ignore topics when a new one pops up every five seconds or so. But will try, I guess. Unlike Kanon, Clannad got a lot more attention because some "game fans" did a lot of promotion on various forums (Yotsuba not being one of them).

...

I asked about the carving because I thought the stars were actually food, but someone said they were made out of wood so I was all, huh??

[Talon87]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

Unlike Kanon, Clannad got a lot more attention because ...

Don't you think it's probable that Clannad has received more attention because it came on the heels of Kanon? You don't seriously think that Kaiji has received more attention than Akagi did for reasons such as "Kaiji is clearly superior" or "Kaiji was heavily promoted by fans," do you? I think it's a very accurate comparison, that of Akagi and Kaiji to that of Kanon and Clannad. People saw Kanon and (despite the hubbub generated by folks like me who had seen the original) it was a great surprise for many. Most of the people who tuned in to Kanon did so because it was Kyoto Animation's first project after Haruhi, and Haruhi (by its own merits) put Kyoto Animation on the map. I think that from there, people enjoyed Kanon despite it being a very different kind of series than Haruhi was, and when they heard that Clannad was coming out and that "Clannad is made by the same people as Kanon, and folks say it's even better!", then there was all the reason they needed to keep watching.

My point is, if Clannad had come first and Kanon had come second, then your words would be reversed, and you'd be saying something along the lines of "Unlike Clannad, Kanon got a lot more attention because ..." I think that any reasons you may come up with are secondary to what I've argued here: that while there may indeed be other reasons for Clannad's heightened popularity on English imageboards, the primary reason is nothing more than "Kanon put Key on the map for us, so now we're paying attention to Key projects, and Clannad is the first one to come along ever since we started paying attention." It's only natural for the series that opens the floodgates to be less (seemingly) popular than the first series to pass through those broken floodgates unrestricted.

As for ignoring Clannad topics, it's easy enough to do. O_o Clannad gets multiple image threads each week on Wakachan, yet I wouldn't consider myself spoilered at all because I recognize the general artwork and/or subconsciously recognize the characters as "Clannad characters" (without knowing who they specifically are) and I just scroll down. It's the same thing as saying, "Yes, I've seen tons of TTGL threads on Wakachan, but I still have zero idea about what TTGL's plot and ending is. All I know is that it has something to do with drills and being underground."

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Xuande

Don't you think it's probable that Clannad has received more attention because it came on the heels of Kanon? You don't seriously think that Kaiji has received more attention than Akagi did for reasons such as "Kaiji is clearly superior" or "Kaiji was heavily promoted by fans," do you? I think it's a very accurate comparison, that of Akagi and Kaiji to that of Kanon and Clannad. People saw Kanon and (despite the hubbub generated by folks like me who had seen the original) it was a great surprise for many. Most of the people who tuned in to Kanon did so because it was Kyoto Animation's first project after Haruhi, and Haruhi (by its own merits) put Kyoto Animation on the map. I think that from there, people enjoyed Kanon despite it being a very different kind of series than Haruhi was, and when they heard that Clannad was coming out and that "Clannad is made by the same people as Kanon, and folks say it's even better!", then there was all the reason they needed to keep watching.

I do think that's a significant contributor, but I'd also argue those claims of Clannad being superior primed people to like it more than Kanon no matter how much they liked Kanon simple because an "authority" (in this case, the Japanese game players) advocated a viewpoint, which was consistent with the Japanese view on erogamescape. It is my own observation that a lot of anime fans value "what the Japanese think" quite a lot, in formus and on Yotsuba as well - the amount of pride /a/rseholes have in "nice boat" (a very stupid meme) being popular with Futaba, Bandai forcing Goro Taniguchi to "hand select" the horrible Geass English cast list to create the illusion that he's advocating quality dubbing, involvement of Japanese anime studios to justify calling something like The Boondocks anime - people value many things Japanese!

I made this claim early around episode one or two of Clannad on at AnimeSuki ('it seems to me, at least, that a lot of people here look good and ready to place Clannad in another league above Kanon simply because the Japanese seem to like it more, and apparently it's now hip/trendy for some people to agree with what the Japanese think") and ended up getting swamped from people from the Clannad forum (when this topic was across boards), leading to a mass deletion of all off-topic messages. That is rabid, and I felt it supported my point in part - I can understand people not wanting to spoil their experience when trolls come out to aggravate them, but to be outright violent to people who offer conflicting views isn't just un-cultured, it's like they are acting as marionettes of a hive-mind. And that kind of thinking, as we saw with the Answerman scandal that brought down Kodomo no Jikan, can be very dangerous for people with money at stake.

I don't see anything wrong with valuing another's opinion, although I'm suspect of the "Japanese opinion" since those opinions are being fed to people through a bilingual speaker (who is already biased in what he/she reads and thinks) and not from the direct source. I'd only wish people would think for themselves more than just rely on other's opinions - even when I take advice on a series to watch, I do try to not let another's opinion influence me too much. I probably wouldn't have gotten into Nagasarete Airantou if I had followed /a/'s opinion when I first inquired about the show.

Unfortunately, it's getting harder and harder for someone who journeys far and abroad to maintain an un-influenced opinion when the number of even slightly opposing views is overwhelming. I have an inherent dislike of hive-mind and groupthink and seeing massively one-sided arguments, even for something I like, grates me a lot. This prompts me to go devil's advocate and offer an alternative viewpoint, but if I take that position long enough, I find myself agreeing with it even though I didn't originally agree.

I look at my history with Geass as an example; at first I loved it, but started to like it less as other people liked it more. I got annoyed with the praise and started to take more extreme arguments, leading me to the view "Geass was horrible". In reality, it's not terrible, but had a lot of potential that fizzled out and shoddy direction and writing at times. Nevertheless, I find myself making the claim "Geass is horrible" whenever I see a similarly positive opinion about it (like "Geass is the best anime since Cowboy Bebop") as if there's some dynamic opinion equilibrium I'm instinctively trying to work toward by balancing out the praise with criticism.

But I think I've talked too much - my own prognosis for myself would be, "watch more anime, watch less anime fans". Good advice I hope to take in the future.

Originally Posted by Xuande

As for ignoring Clannad topics, it's easy enough to do. O_o Clannad gets multiple image threads each week on Wakachan, yet I wouldn't consider myself spoilered at all because I recognize the general artwork and/or subconsciously recognize the characters as "Clannad characters" (without knowing who they specifically are) and I just scroll down. It's the same thing as saying, "Yes, I've seen tons of TTGL threads on Wakachan, but I still have zero idea about what TTGL's plot and ending is. All I know is that it has something to do with drills and being underground."

I haven't been spoiled either, but I'm less worried about plot points and more concerned with people giving general debate topics and filling them with spam and troll posts. Now that I've practice with Firefox, I think I'll be downloading that "Hide Thread" extension so I won't have to see trash like that anymore.

How does one install/use a plugin?

[big bad birtha]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

I asked about the carving because I thought the stars were actually food, but someone said they were made out of wood so I was all, huh??

Eh!? o.O Umm......you know in episode two, she was actually carving one of her stars when Tomoya first met her right? ^_^; She then cut her hand and he took the knife away from her. Don't worry, I do this kind of thing all of the time.

Also, Suigin, I would like for you to check out Clannad. Well, atleast the first nine episodes, and tell me what you think. I don't know if what Doppleganger says about people praising the hell out of Fuko's path is true, but I would like another opinion.

[Talon87]

I'd rather not. Clannad looks like "Kanon Again!", and I enjoyed Kanon well enough but don't feel like reliving it just yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Clannad really, really looks like they just took the Kanon girls and ...
a) gave them new names,
b) swapped up their hair and eye colors, and
c) gave them different specifics for their backstories (e.g. there's a girl like Ayu but this girl didn't necessarily fall off a tree)

In other words ...
- there is a girl who is Ayu, but she may not have Ayu's hair and eyes, Ayu's name, or Ayu's love of taiyaki. But she has her own Uguu catchphrase, she's clumsy, she's adorable, etc.
- there is a girl like Nayuki who is the incest angle
- there is a girl like Mai who is the sullen, fierce girl
- so on and so forth

No? If a big n-o, then sure, I'll check out the first episode. If honestly "yes ," then I'll pass.

[big bad birtha]

Alright. My answer for this is.........n-o

Now, let me clarify.

Nagisa's story does seem like Shiori's in a way, but it's too different to really say anything. I also find her personality to be unique as well.

Fuko is the loli one. Her story is kind of a rip-off of Ayu's, but it has it's own merits. However, Fuko's personality is very unique, though kind of annoying.

Kotomi is original. From what I have seen, her story has not been used in Key once. Same with her personality.

Tomoyo's story seems to be alot like Rumi Nanase's story from ONE. I don't really know it yet, but it seems to be the case. Her personality is somewhat similar to Mai's, but she is more on the serious side than emotionless.

I don't know Kyou's story yet. She does act alot like Rumi Nanase though. However, that's really it.

Also, none of the characters really have a catchphrase other than maybe Nagisa, who says the name of the food she will reward herself with if she goes through with something. The flow is also different from Kanon's as well.

o.O I know the names of all five paths already (well, there's a sixth one, but it doesn't look like the anime will cover it)? Damn! That's a first ^_^;

[Doppleganger]

Talon's accurate in pointing out that Clannad's characters are merely "the latest twist on the Key archetype", with a lot of shuffling going on with the same character types but with personalities/dispositions/backstories not found in other Key titles. In this, and BBB most of all should be able to say this, Clannad is a sort of "magnum opus" in that it blends Key's three older works (One, Air, Kanon) when those three stories didn't have too much overlap, to create a new story.

This is simmilar to what Ken Akamatsu did for Negima! - when Kodansha asked him to make a manga with a huge harem, Akamatsu got together with his staff and took seven columns with nine characteristics in each and assigned three each randomly to a character, which he elaborated on into a unique personality. But at the core, some of the characters over-lap in their same traits - this is why folks like Akira don't get much time compared with Setsuna, since (if design wasn't clear enough) they have simmilar tastes and dispositions, except Setsuna had a fudgeton more development.

...

Now that I think about it, I really want a Planetarian anime. It sounds like Planetarian is the only Key title that deviates from the normal formula. With a different setting to boot.

[Talon87]

Negima just doesn't work. @_@ Love Hina, you have a college-age dude and the sexy tsundere who is also 17 years old and thus completely legal (in Japan; and she turns 18 by Book 6 of 14 anyway, so SAFE can kiss it). But Negima? A 10-year old boy (shota for the lose! >.<) and his high school harem of girls, none of whom are legal and very few of whom have mature womanly bodies. Very, very few.

And as for Clannad, I have BBB predictably telling me "NO! WATCH IT! :O BEST ANIME OF THE YEAR!" and I have Doppel being contrary and saying, "No, Talon, you were quite right -- Clannad is just Key reshuffling their character types, albeit it from amongst two franchises you have not seen in addition to the one you have." So ... we'll see. I'll probably get around to watching it next weekend. But who knows, just watch me watch it tomorrow. We'll see, we'll see, we'll see.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by Xuande

Negima just doesn't work. @_@ Love Hina, you have a college-age dude and the sexy tsundere who is also 17 years old and thus completely legal (in Japan; and she turns 18 by Book 6 of 14 anyway, so SAFE can kiss it). But Negima? A 10-year old boy (shota for the lose! >.<) and his high school harem of girls, none of whom are legal and very few of whom have mature womanly bodies. Very, very few.

Not sure what you mean by "mature", it seems nowadays that the majority of Negi's students do look like of age, even though they're supposed to be young-ish. The age range varies from 13 to 17, and so does the female body structure. Aside from Eva, the twins, and possibly Yue, almost none of the girls look underage.

And the shota stuff - I can't deny it's there at times, but aside from the Nodoka issues (ugh) it's almost exclusively used for comic relief. Same with the incest stuff (which is actually very funny, one of the few instances I could tolerate something like that without getting grossed out).

Also, and maybe Loki if he's reading can back me up on this, the best chapters of Negima! are when Negi decides to stop being a shota. The Ako arc, circa chapters 123, was some of the best shounen manga I've read - it was done flawlessly within the characters personalities and abilities, was funny and action-filled with a sweet ending and a lot of magic stuff. Akamatsu showed me then that, when not chained by the greedy corporate suits who likewise imprisoned Akira Toriyama into making more Dragonball beyond the Freiza Saga, has a lot of skill at his disposal that he could chuck out at will.

Likewise, a simmilarly great chapter was in the 190's when Negi enters the magic world, a full-blooded adult again, and starts to make a legend for himself despite being ten (technically nine) years old. In this, Akamatsu's still following his Harry Potter formula but giving it a different and quite attractive flaire.

[big bad birtha]

Originally Posted by Doppleganger

In this, and BBB most of all should be able to say this, Clannad is a sort of "magnum opus" in that it blends Key's three older works (One, Air, Kanon) when those three stories didn't have too much overlap, to create a new story.

I will not say that just yet. I do admit that Fuko's path is a blatant rip-off of two past key stories, but it is still pretty good in its own respects (though still not very good when compared to other Key stories). I told you how the other stories compared to other Key stories, and until I discover more, I will stick with what I said. The path I am currently watching (Kotomi) seems completely original. So far, nothing in her path has been used in Key.

Now, if you disagree with what I said, I would like for you to say exactly what stories are blended in each character's path, because I only saw the ones I pointed out, especially since only Fuko's has been revealed.

[McSweeney]

I'm really baffled that there hasn't been a Planetarian anime yet. And it does deviate from the "Key formula" considering there are only two characters in the entire story (unless you count the protagonist recounting the time his friend got shot or something).

[big bad birtha]

I'm pretty sure that there hasn't been a Planetarian anime yet because Kyoto and Toei have been working on other Key anime. I mean, Planetarian came out late 2004 (lets just go ahead and say that it came out in 2005.) If anything, it will come out next year after Clannad is out of the way. Of course, who gets their hands on Planetarian is still beyond me. I hope it's Kyoto. Honestly, I look forward to the Little Busters! anime. I wanna see what it's like.

Anyway, you know my post means......

Clannad 11- =D This episode was really good. It was cute, funny, sweet, and awesome all in one package of greatness. You just have to love Kotomi. I look forward to seeing what her path entails. I just hope it isn't a rip-off of another Key story. That would prove Doppleganger right, and that's not muy bueno! ;_;

Oh, and I have found a couple more similarities to other Key stories. However, they are very minor, and all of them came from Air.

Kotomi's personality is somewhat like Tohno's. However, Tohno is just quiet and talks slow, while Kotomi is completely absent-minded.

Kyou's overprotection of Ryou is similar to how Kano's sister is overprotective of her.

If there are any more, I will mention them.

[McSweeney]

Considering Air is one of my favourite animes ever, I feel like I owe it to them to at least try Clannad. Plus, I'll get my necessary intake of high school girls running around in short skirts and thigh highs.

[Talon87]

I forgot. @_@ I'll go get episodes 1 and 2 right now.

[Doppleganger]

Originally Posted by big bad birtha

I'm pretty sure that there hasn't been a Planetarian anime yet because Kyoto and Toei have been working on other Key anime. I mean, Planetarian came out late 2004 (lets just go ahead and say that it came out in 2005.) If anything, it will come out next year after Clannad is out of the way. Of course, who gets their hands on Planetarian is still beyond me. I hope it's Kyoto. Honestly, I look forward to the Little Busters! anime. I wanna see what it's like.

I think the real reason is it's pretty hard to adapt Planetarian into an anime without adding a ton of filler, extra characters and such and doing something to liven up the drama. It's not impossible (unlike an Ever17 anime - Blick Winkel would tear up the script!) but think about it this way.

1. Planetarian movie. Total time would be two hours max. Meet Yumemi, get attached to Yumemi, get de-attached to Yumemi. With the amount of stuff that went down in Planetarian, a movie wouldn't be able to convey the tragedy of the ending. People would think it forced, boring, etc.
2. Planetarian TV series. Enough time to stretch out the character interaction, but at the same time too long and would drag out stuff painfully. There would need to be more characters beyond the salvager and Yumemi, and that would destroy the desolate atmosphere of the show.
3. Planetarian OVA - possible. Most likely case in my view, since the game isn't that well liked among KEY fans or even the general visual novel junkie.

[big bad birtha]

Errm...I wish I could help with who you should watch it under, but I can't really say. I have watched every episode under both SS Eclipse and Sprocket Hole & Wafflehouse subs, and I can't really tell much difference.

Sprocket Hole & Wafflehouse subs are extremely fast, as in they sub each episode in only a couple of hours. I wouldn't say speed is bad though, because Sprocket has already subbed most of the lines in Clannad with their translation of the Visual Novel. However, every time Clannad is uploaded, it is replaced by SS Eclipse's version. SS Eclipse is also very fast, because they take half a day.

I apologize ;_;

EDIT: That's why I said that Planetarian would be taken by Toei or Kyoto instead of the usual trend of Kyoto and Toei. I'm almost positive that Planetarian would be either an OVA or a movie, and making an alternate retelling would be pointless.

Anyway, my reason for saying that the reason for Planetarian not being released because of other Key titles. You see, Planetarian was released online for download at late 2004, and released on disc in mid 2005. Kyoto and Toei were both working on Air at that time. Kyoto, of course, did the beyond excellent TV series, while Toei did the movie. Air was extremely popular, and as a result, Kyoto started doing Kanon 2006 in, of course, 2006. Then this year, Kyoto and Toei did their own adaptations of Clannad. As you can tell, a Key title has been worked on by companies each year after Planetarian's release. If they do decide to make a Planetarian anime, it will be next year.

Of course, what you said is another reason. It does seem kind of difficult to actually make an anime adaptation to Planetarian =/

[big bad birtha]

...........

Clannad 12- Err......o.O I don't really know what to think of this episode. I mean, it had a bunch of sweet Kotomi moments, but I don't know her story fully. I kind of found it to be more weird than anything. Oh well. There's always next episode to explain everything. I just hope Kotomi's story doesn't become as dull as it seems to be leaning toward =/

[Doppleganger]

Tell me a bit about Kotomi's story. We know Fuko was a huge rip-off of Ayu, but Kotomi?

[big bad birtha]

Alright. Will do. However, most of this will be speculation, because as I said earlier, I don't fully understand her story.

Kotomi's story does have a part that was used in Mai's story, and Miyo's story from ONE, and that is the "I knew you and played with you in my childhood, but I only realized it later." I'm not counting Ayu and Makoto for reasons I don't want to bother explaining. Anyway, he apparently played with Kotomi as a kid. However, I think her house burned down or something. I also think her parents died. The thing that confuses me is when Kotomi completely flips out. She falls to the ground in the fetal position and starts screaming "I'm sorry! I won't do it again!" With this, I assume that her parents died and she was sent to live with harsh foster parents, which is why Kotomi is so insanely intelligent. Unfortunately, I am still shooting blanks on that. What also confuses me is Tomoya's relationship with her as a kid. I mean, from out of nowhere "I knew you as a child didn't I?" I also don't know about that creepy old guy who follows Kotomi around. Apparently, he's a guardian that hurt Kotomi in the past or something.

As you can see, there's still more for me to find out. Unfortunately, with what has been presented to me though, my optimism for it almost died =/ I will still hope for a great story out of this.

[big bad birtha]

w00t! Mesa hash watched zine thirteenth episode of Clannad ^o^ I was getting lonely without it.

Clannad 13- To be completely honest, this was a pretty lame and uneventful episode =/. I mean, Kotomi's story doesn't seem to be anything special at all. I just hope that the conclusion is better than this.

;_; Two weeks and I come back to this.....